WTB raidloot. PST.

[~trixi]

All your metaphors are kinda inaccurate, so I decided to help u with mine:

Imagine that you are playing a game. 11 other people join. Your group somehow succeed and you open the chest...

[~Kanttura]

this is it in a nutshell.

Unless it's in your name, it's none of your business.

Take this approach to save yourself and everyone else grief.

You know, this applies to every concievable method of dealing with loot.

If everyone thinks My loot is my loot, there is no drama.
If everyone thinks I'll Loot what I want, rest is up for roll, there is no drama.
If everyone thinks I'll pass everything to the leader who'll do whatever with it, there is no drama.
If everyone thinks I Loot what I want and leave everything else to rot, there is no drama.
If everyone thinks I'll pass everything to Kanttura, there is no drama.

Sadly, not everyone thinks the same. Generally speaking, the My Loot Is My Loot crowd seems to be the loudest on forums when asked about in general DDO discussion forum, so it only has the advantage of popularity there. I think this thread shows that the people who a) care enough to post in this thread and b) play on Argonnessen, prefer a loot yourself or put up for roll approach, which would give the advantage of popularity to that method. Then again, the data's biased towards endgame players (not to mention sample size is pitiful), since there's few people posting on this thread who I know play on argo and I don't group with once a week.

[~redspecter23-A]

Perhaps something being slightly glossed over is how the "roll off for everyone" loot philosophy actually ends up working out in practice. I hear people saying don't tell me what to do with my loot and I actually agree with that. Rules can be put in place ahead of time and if someone doesn't agree with any particular rule, they are free to leave.

In runs where the "roll for everyone" rule is in effect where I have been present, it's not so much that the players have an expectation of getting someone's loot. If I have, say, 6 guildies and myself in a run with 5 pugs, the guildies will put all of our unwanted loot up for a roll. We do not share among ourselves or give preferential treatment to anyone, guildie or pug. I think it can be agreed that isn't greedy in any way and certainly isn't an expectation of us to receive someone's loot. This is the attitude we have and all agree with. Our guild isn't forcing this on our guildies because we all agree with it or we wouldn't be here.

The pugs, while we appreciate their generosity if they choose to participate, cannot be forced to do so. They are free to pass loot, attempt to buy and sell or even let it rot. We have no expectation of receiving their loot at all. It cannot be enforced in any way. We do appreciate if they reciprocate and those that do so tend to be invited along on future runs much more frequently because they also agree with out looting "rule" and we enjoy playing with like minded players. Very rarely is someone strictly blacklisted (I have 0 on my blacklist currently) though priority would be given to players that share our loot views if we were to be putting a run together that has pugs involved.

Suggesting that the roll off looting crowd is telling others what to do with their loot is slightly misunderstanding the situation. Even if the worst case scenario came up and someone was blacklisted, it's highly unlikely that player would want to be on our guild runs anyway as the loot policies are so far apart it would create an overly dramatic situation every time they grouped up.

My thoughts are like this. I've never been blacklisted, or frowned upon or received a bad rep by putting my loot up for roll. I hear stories all the time both in game and on the forums of people selling/buying/passing/trading loot and it's often spoken of in a negative way. I choose my own personal looting rules based on how I will be perceived by the community. I want my rep and my guild's rep to be positive so I choose the path that leads to the least possible negative experience for everyone involved to reduce drama overall.

[Hypoxia]

Can we go back to thinly veiled sexual innuendo please?

[rangerluna375]

When you have a guest over at your house, do you give all the good stuff to your friends and family first? Or, do you try to welcome them and be hospitable by treating them to a nice dinner or whatever?

When your guild has pugs in the run, and you give preference to your guildies, you're being very inhospitable to the "guests" in your run. This is the reason why the loot it yourself or put up for roll mechanic is in place, so that the "guests" have a fair chance at the good stuff, and thus are generally happy with their decision to join that guilds run.

If guest happens to be a great player, you might be looking at a potential future guildie by virtue of your hospitality.

This a million times over.

I have been in raid PUGs before MOTU, where a particular shard would be put up for roll, and when their guildy didn't win the roll, the item was either looted or left in the chest to rot.

Seen it happen more times than I care to admit.

Lately, the only loot issues I have seen, are players rolling on items that have ZERO use for their toons. "Ill need it on a future life".

But in the end, it doesn't really matter, if it didn't originally drop in your name.

If you want to institute rules on the rolls, be up front about it, and make sure you abide by your own rules.

[~Teenah]

When you have a guest over at your house, do you give all the good stuff to your friends and family first? Or, do you try to welcome them and be hospitable by treating them to a nice dinner or whatever?

When your guild has pugs in the run, and you give preference to your guildies, you're being very inhospitable to the "guests" in your run. This is the reason why the loot it yourself or put up for roll mechanic is in place, so that the "guests" have a fair chance at the good stuff, and thus are generally happy with their decision to join that guilds run.

If guest happens to be a great player, you might be looking at a potential future guildie by virtue of your hospitality.

When you have a family reunion in the park, do you make sure that everyone else that happens to be in the park can eat before ensuring your family is fed?


1. Take care of yourself. The better you do; the better you can do for others.
2. Take care of those that contribute to your life. Enable them to do their best for the people and things they care about.
3. Give to charity.

Do for me, do for mine, do for all.

Arguing against this stance is just trying to get others to do for you without reciprocating into their life.

[~redspecter23-A]

When you have a family reunion in the park, do you make sure that everyone else that happens to be in the park can eat before ensuring your family is fed?


1. Take care of yourself. The better you do; the better you can do for others.
2. Take care of those that contribute to your life. Enable them to do their best for the people and things they care about.
3. Give to charity.

Do for me, do for mine, do for all.

Arguing against this stance is just trying to get others to do for you without reciprocating into their life.

In your analogy, the other people in the park are the other people on the server doing their own things in different groups. They're not rolling on my loot and I'm not rolling on theirs as they are not connected in any way other than they are in the same area (server). The people in my guild in the group are my family and friends in the park that I came with. The pugs are some people I met at the park and am hanging out with. I personally would share with these new friends. Others might not want to and I wouldn't blame them if they didn't, but I personally would offer to share with these new potential friends. I guess in my opinion everyone in my group is considered a friend and proxy guildmate, at least for that run.

[~Teenah]

In your analogy, the other people in the park are the other people on the server doing their own things in different groups. They're not rolling on my loot and I'm not rolling on theirs as they are not connected in any way other than they are in the same area (server). The people in my guild in the group are my family and friends in the park that I came with. The pugs are some people I met at the park and am hanging out with. I personally would share with these new friends. Others might not want to and I wouldn't blame them if they didn't, but I personally would offer to share with these new potential friends. I guess in my opinion everyone in my group is considered a friend and proxy guildmate, at least for that run.

Right. The cool partycrashers may be welcome to share what's left, but you take care of your family first. Ya might give em a burger, but the 3 pieces of Grandma's Recipe Marinated steak you prepared for You, your brother, and your favorite cousin goes to you, your brother, and your favorite cousin... Unless of course, your favorite cousin decided to become vegetarian and passes on it.

[~redspecter23-A]

Right. The cool partycrashers may be welcome to share what's left, but you take care of your family first. Ya might give em a burger, but the 3 pieces of Grandma's Recipe Marinated steak you prepared for You, your brother, and your favorite cousin goes to you, your brother, and your favorite cousin... Unless of course, your favorite cousin decided to become vegetarian and passes on it.

I suppose we just see things differently. But I believe we can still disagree and both be right. You do it your way. I'll do it mine. In my scenario my guest/pug/friend all get a share of the best food at the picnic in the park. I may start to get a bit grabby with my food in an apocalypse situation or zombie infestation or certain extremes like that, but on a day to day basis, I really, honestly do like to share with everyone in my group as I consider them all "family" for as long as the group is together. If I didn't respect anyone in the group enough to give them all an equal chance at my loot, I'd excuse myself before the run begins. I respect your right to believe and do it differently, however.

[~mynameisnotallowed]

These arguments are pointless. You can do whatever you want with what you pull and any attempt to control what someone else does with theirs will net you nothing... except some stress.

However, i will be happy to agree with the OP that it is in poor taste. Since I can't control what you do with your stuff, i will make the following offer:

If I am in a raid with you and you are considering selling your loot/commendations etc to someone who started offering items or plat for it, whether in chat or via tell, I will make a standing offer:

Whatever they offer to give you for it, I will give you that plus 10k plat. Just so they cant buy the ****. Cause I'm a ****.

[~Hunta]

Ok let me say right off the bat I dont play on Argo. I envy your servers prevalent attitude to loot and applaud it. It is this type of fair loot policy that builds the community and keeps newer players for longer.

I firmly believe the 'my loot is my loot community' are in part responsible for the demise of the DDO player base.

My guild plays on Thelanis, well known for its power gamers and elite end game guilds. As one with both a fair loot policy and a small guild size, we are in a minority and as such have major issues contending with greedy puggers / power gamers.

Over the years we have adapted polices to try integrate ourselves while still maintaining our guild identity as fair, non elitist players. We currently encourage our members to lfm that it is a clan raid and that a loot policy applies when we are in the majority and have the star. Thereby announcing right at the start that we have a everything you don't need is up for roll type situation. If we don't announce before hand we don't expect puggers to have to follow suit.

I personally like to advertise our loot policy in the hopes that someday it can become the prevalent attitude as it once was.

Excluding people from a chance at your loot based on your internal policies merely marginalises you and your guild from the community.

[~Arcscoob]

Ok let me say right off the bat I dont play on Argo. I envy your servers prevalent attitude to loot and applaud it. It is this type of fair loot policy that builds the community and keeps newer players for longer.

I firmly believe the 'my loot is my loot community' are in part responsible for the demise of the DDO player base.

My guild plays on Thelanis, well known for its power gamers and elite end game guilds. As one with both a fair loot policy and a small guild size, we are in a minority and as such have major issues contending with greedy puggers / power gamers.

Over the years we have adapted polices to try integrate ourselves while still maintaining our guild identity as fair, non elitist players. We currently encourage our members to lfm that it is a clan raid and that a loot policy applies when we are in the majority and have the star. Thereby announcing right off the bat that we have a everything you don't need is up for roll type situation. If we don't announce before hand we don't expect puggers to have to follow suit.

I personally like to advertise our loot policy in the hopes that someday it can become the prevalent attitude as it once was.

Excluding people from a chance at your loot based on your internal policies merely marginalises you and your guild from the community.

It's important for large end game guilds to realize this as they more often are leading these lfms. This is why CK has this policy.

[Enoach]

Right. The cool partycrashers may be welcome to share what's left, but you take care of your family first. Ya might give em a burger, but the 3 pieces of Grandma's Recipe Marinated steak you prepared for You, your brother, and your favorite cousin goes to you, your brother, and your favorite cousin... Unless of course, your favorite cousin decided to become vegetarian and passes on it.

Based on your post I can tell you and I were brought up on different definitions of BBQ. Yours seems so quant and personal. My history has them full of extremely large groups of people, where it seems we pack more food home than what we came with.

Picnic and BBQ references are difficult to use as depending on where you are from they are defined differently not just in size but even in the Food Served.

Personally I'm a "It is your Loot" person. However, I favor the "Roll d{something}" method open to Everyone or Specific Class Groups or Must be able to use it this life criteria.

My reasons for this is because I don't put value in Plat and Items as they are just 1s and 0s to me. But I do get joy when someone wins a roll and gets an item they would love to have (notice I avoid NEED)

[~Rideros]

Here's a better analogy for you, same dinner party, everybody has equal access to the food. You've eaten yourself full, but you still have food on your plate. Does it matter what you do with it at that point? Does anyone care? Is it appropriate if a guest that you don't know throws a hissy fit because you gave your cake to your best friend?
if you request a doggy bag, should the cook question if you'll actually eat it later? Would you expect everyone there to have an uproar if you decide to just dump it?

I want to play party analogy game as well, here is what i think.

Imagine 11 ducks and one penguin sitting over a loaf of bread... or even better, lets say 9 ducks and 3 penguins. Then, at some point of the party one of the ducks appears to be a strangely large pigeon, almost of a size of a duck. Sooo... they all are staring at this loaf of bread when suddenly... a wolf comes and eats a pigeon.
Now, you would ask why he took the pigeon while he had ducks and penguins to choose from? Well, that would always stay a mystery.

So, rest of the party looks puzzled on the wolf, the situation doesn't look great. There's a bread loaf, all tasty and nutritious and still at least 10 interested in it bread eaters, cose one of the penguins actually suspiciously turn his gaze at the wolf. But the ducks know, if they eat a bread they will get fat and wolf will have a better meal out of them, kinda like a sandwitch only the bread would be inside of the poultry. Other two penguins look at each other with the obvious expression on their faces - "what the **** am I doing here?".

Now the question is, what would happen if instead of bread there was a chicken? Would they roll for it or eat it or maybe trade it for pigeons life.

I say, give a chance to everyone, except the "suspiciously interested in a wolf" penguin.

I hope i helped everyone in this fruitful discussion.

Peace out.

[~Greenbearded]

I want to play party analogy game as well, here is what i think.

Imagine 11 ducks and one penguin sitting over a loaf of bread... or even better, lets say 9 ducks and 3 penguins. Then, at some point of the party one of the ducks appears to be a strangely large pigeon, almost of a size of a duck. Sooo... they all are staring at this loaf of bread when suddenly... a wolf comes and eats a pigeon.
Now, you would ask why he took the pigeon while he had ducks and penguins to choose from? Well, that would always stay a mystery.

So, rest of the party looks puzzled on the wolf, the situation doesn't look great. There's a bread loaf, all tasty and nutritious and still at least 10 interested in it bread eaters, cose one of the penguins actually suspiciously turn his gaze at the wolf. But the ducks know, if they eat a bread they will get fat and wolf will have a better meal out of them, kinda like a sandwitch only the bread would be inside of the poultry. Other two penguins look at each other with the obvious expression on their faces - "what the **** am I doing here?".

Now the question is, what would happen if instead of bread there was a chicken? Would they roll for it or eat it or maybe trade it for pigeons life.

I say, give a chance to everyone, except the "suspiciously interested in a wolf" penguin.

I hope i helped everyone in this fruitful discussion.

Peace out.

Genius! Be the bearer of my children Ridero!

[Kitraine]

Its funny, some players seem to forget that everybody already is treated equally in regards to loot, its called the initial roll. I'm not talking the roll that someone lists in chat, I'm talking the roll that happens when the chest is first opened. Everybody has equal chance at loot.

Here's a better analogy for you, same dinner party, everybody has equal access to the food. You've eaten yourself full, but you still have food on your plate. Does it matter what you do with it at that point? Does anyone care? Is it appropriate if a guest that you don't know throws a hissy fit because you gave your cake to your best friend?
if you request a doggy bag, should the cook question if you'll actually eat it later? Would you expect everyone there to have an uproar if you decide to just dump it?

This sense of entitlement towards other players' good fortune needs to end.

Well -- the first roll is RANDOM, so yea it goes to everyone the same regardless of class/race whatever. Being thinking and feeling humans rather than a stupid computer, we can then make a more fair roll based upon those things.

How is it good fortune if you don't want it? I have never seen a fighter say whooo hooo I got a twilight!.

No one is saying you can't be a selfish jerk, you can... just don't run in the runs where people don't like that kind of behavior.

[thesnoman]

OK - My two Copper on this issue:

I'm a "Your loot is Your loot" kind of guy...to a fault.

Ever seen this LFM?
EE High Road - Complete - Please pass Nether Grasps?

I have - about once or twice a day on Thelanis - always the same person running it - I wonder how many people have ruined his day or gotten squelched by this guy because they ppulled what he wanted and didn't pass it?

Here's what I would put in my LFM - same situation:
EE High Road - Looking for Grasps, but Your Loot is Your Loot.

Guess what I'm expecting? Nothing - no one to pass me their loot if they pull the item I want. -but I'll get a nice surprise when that someone does pass me that item I'm looking for.


By the same token, I don't care what you do with your Raid Loot when you get it.
12 people ran the raid
12 people got a random lootgen roll
12 people got some amount of loot
12 people get to decide what to do with their portion of the loot*
Want to put it up for roll? Go For It
Did my Sorcerer get a Skybreaker and that Fighter across the way get a Tablecloth? I know I'd propose a trade right off. If that fighter wants to put the tablecloth up for roll or give it to a guildie, no biggie - If he wants to accept the trade, we both win (and we both had raid items in the chest anyway, so who loses? Oh yeah - the rest of the party who didn't get any raid loot - but since they wouldn't have gotten anything anyway... ... ...)


See - there's no winners and no losers.

You say - I lost because I didn't get to roll on that item.

I say - you didn't get the item to begin with - so why should you expect the right to roll on it if I don't want it? You wouldn't have gotten the chance if I did want it, would you?

If I get something I won't use and there's nothing else in the chest I want, I'll most likely put it up for roll.**

If I get something I don't want and someone offers me two Commendations for it - I'll most likely take it.**

If I get something I don't want, but someone else got something I do want, I'll likely offer up a trade, (both in party and in private message - PM to make sure they see it, party chat so everyone else does too)

If someone in party gets something that they don't want and they pass it to someone without a roll - that's there prerogative.

The new thing I've been seeing more often, (and have copied), is this example:

Twilight falls in chest for someone that doesn't want it
"Casters only d100 for Twilight"

or

Skybreaker falls
Skybreaker - D100 - Don't roll on it if you aren't going to use it THIS LIFE


My only pet peeve is someone letting raid loot rot in a chest.

See - my point is that everyone gets a fair shake at loot when the chest is opened - what you do with what you get is up to you. Please don't try to enforce your ideals on me - you have the right to squelch me if you don't like what I do with my loot.


* - I've run with AlIcLaN and I abide by their loot policy when it's stated - I also believe a loot policy stated in an LFM overrides Your Loot is Your Loot.
** - if running with guild mates, I'm likely passing to them before putting an item up for roll or taking trade offers - they help me, I help them, and I may never run with you - Mr random PuGger - ever again.

[Wizza]

OK - My two Copper on this issue:

I'm a "Your loot is Your loot" kind of guy...to a fault.

Ever seen this LFM?
EE High Road - Complete - Please pass Nether Grasps?

I have - about once or twice a day on Thelanis - always the same person running it - I wonder how many people have ruined his day or gotten squelched by this guy because they ppulled what he wanted and didn't pass it?

Here's what I would put in my LFM - same situation:
EE High Road - Looking for Grasps, but Your Loot is Your Loot.

Guess what I'm expecting? Nothing - no one to pass me their loot if they pull the item I want. -but I'll get a nice surprise when that someone does pass me that item I'm looking for.

Different situation is different. If I solo something, then put the lfm up for a free chest, you better pass me the item I want or you can and solo it by yourself.

If I solo Madstone crater and looking for an Axe of Adaxus desperetely, you'd bet that I would put "Pass me Axe if it drops for you" in the lfm and I EXPECT you to do it. Because 1) I've soloed it for you and offering 2 free chests, and 2) you have a free chance to a tome and a free completion/favor, 3) in the case of Madstone, you have a chance to Iron beads and Girdle that you can loot.

If you don't, you can be sure I'll squelch you and it is actually your loss: 1) I didn't need you to run it since I soloed it and 2) you won't have a chance at free chests anymore.

[thesnoman]

Different situation is different. If I solo something, then put the lfm up for a free chest, you better pass me the item I want or you can and solo it by yourself.

Understandable - I was just putting up my situation and my opinion on that style of play. I NEVER put up that you'd better pass me X Loot because I completed X quest and I NEVER squelch someone for not passing me said loot.

It's still my opinion that Your Loot is still Your Loot. Notice I put that it's my opinion TO A FAULT If I run a quest solo, I generally loot the chest solo. If I invite others to loot the chest, their loot is their loot - but I let it be known what I'm looking for in case someone wants to be generous and pass me said loot.

Seriously - if you want six chances to get loot, there are ways to do this - don't rely on others to give you what THEIR Lootgen roll gave them. You'll be disappointed less often.

(also notice that I put later in my post that loot rules in LFMs trump your loot is your loot IMHO - but I generally don't join these groups unless I agree with the loot rules posted - such rules I abide by include AlIcLaN's loot rules. Since I don't agree with Pass Me X LFMs, I don't join said groups.)

It does make you wonder though, how crappy must the player morale/discipline be if we got guys here on forums trying to justify not passing a certain piece of loot from a freaking FREE chest when the party leader asked for it in the lfm.

Are you that much of a reject that you got DEFENCE out of my post - learn to READ and you'll see I posted that I do not post those type of LFMs because there are such people that will do what's in their best interest and be damned what the LFM says. I'd rather be surprised when someone DOES pass the loot I'm looking for rather than expect it and get some jerk who loots what he gets even if it's what I posted I'm looking for.

I also posted that I do not join such LFMs because I believe Your Loot is Your Loot.

AND I posted that I believe that LFM requests for a group override Your loot is your loot - no matter the circumstance.

Again sir - LEARN TO READ and you'll get a lot farther in this world.

[Cordovan]

...and we're done.