WTB raidloot. PST.

[~Gaesatae]

You have one more thing to add please. Who are you? Would you mind listing us your characters?

I have already declined this offer twice in this thread. What makes you think I'm going to change my mind now? It never ceases to amaze me the level of butthurt shown by those who think they are important, when they are spurned. My loot is my loot to do with as I see fit, grow up and get over it.

[Cetus]

Maybe the handful of channel people in the rarified circles in which you run, have their own private policy, but that is not the majority of endgame/large guilds of uber/veteran players. I have already refuted your other assertion.

You can't refute my "assertion" by virtue of a blatant contradiction that I have already elucidated for you. It doesn't work that way. If you'd like to refute something I have said, you'll need to do a better job expressing your point.

Endgame can be an ambiguous definition that can cover a wide spectrum of players. Are you suggesting that you are privy to the practices of them all?

Endgame: Doing EE content. There's nothing ambiguous about it. End = level cap, highest difficulty content. Game = DDO. Simple.

I have put forward my perspective, the last post was just a bone to the naysayers. I completely disagree with your position on this issue. We can go into it further if you want, but I think I've covered it already. I don't owe those players anything, any more than they owe me. They got their fair chance at loot when they opened the chest, like everyone else.

So you disagree with the notion that picking a party member to whom you want to pass raid loot is a disservice to the rest of the contributors? Somehow you conveniently took a detour around that point.


That's fine, in your chosen circle of players. I don't really know how endgame or uber you or the other posters here fancy themselves, but to say you speak for a significant cross-section of the playerbase, IS disingenuous because you really don't know what goes in every group. This is something people try to hide, not flaunt publicly, for precisely the attitudes displayed in this thread.

Actually, any other poster from my own server is welcome to correct me if I spoke incorrectly on their behalf. Yes, after 7 years of playing on argo - I'd like to think that my exposure to argo's endgame community has been quite extensive. And let me correct you for a moment, I'm not speaking for a significant cross-section of the PLAYERBASE, I'm speaking for a significant cross-section of the END-GAME playerbase.

I've also stated that there are slip ups, because we do not live in a perfect world. But the overarching theme plays in accordance with the aforementioned system. Somehow you disregarded that one in your response as well.

One thing I do notice though, it's often the most relatively well connected players who complain about a practice which has very little impact on them, but which may get a less well connected player a foot in the door. I can argue about this forever, ultimately there is no right or wrong. I will say that almost every rational analog favours my interpretation. Actually, I've already identified several fallacies in your rationalization. Try to stay consistent.

Comments in red

[~Kanttura]

The original post says nothing specific about who is doing the buying and selling. The fact that the original poster is actively contradicting what he complained about in his original post is enough to invalidate your collective postion.

Now do you require me to find a second example of raid loot selling, or shall we just leave it at that?

Point out the contradiction for me, will you? I don't believe I've made one yet.

[Enoach]

For me it comes down to the "It is your loot and you may disperse it as you see fit"

However, things I frown upon:

1. Proxy Rolling - Do that and you can be sure I will avoid running with you or the benefactor again.
2. Guild Only Rolls - Again do that and I will be sure to avoid running with you or any members of your guild again
3. Pressuring someone into giving away their loot because "I can put it to better use" - Believe me I do speak up on these types and I will not avoid you for this, but I will be there when you try it again
4. Selling your loot and rolling on another's loot, especially when you won the roll - I won't avoid you for this, but it just feels like a slap in the face to generosity.
5. Selling loot after you announced it was up for roll and a clear winner is decided
6. Looting something accidently (not as common now but at one time lag did cause chest name passing glitches) put in your name when you know full well it is not yours

Bottom line is be as generous as you can, I even have people that remember me from years ago for putting "Big Ticket" items up for roll and have been blessed many times over due to these small generosities.

But to the OP, even when raid gear was a guaranteed 2 Item Drop and the PL had to pass you a marker to loot it from the Chest there was Selling, Exclusion and other weirdness when it came to Bound To Character on acquire loot - But was not done by the "Good" raid leaders, but even one bad apple spoiled the bunch so to speak. The change to what we currently have helped to "Fix" the issue as being a single point problem to being what it is today.

My own opinion - It is their loot, let them do what they want with it. You are not worse off by their actions. However, If you don't agree with their style don't group with them again. There are so many playing this game that avoiding those that do something you think is not "right" is still easy to do.

Just for the record - I've bought loot that I wanted, but I have never sold anything as I either put it up for Roll or directly pass it to the person I want to have it.

[~trixi]

i wont look down on u if u offer me otto box for something... just saying

[~Gaesatae]

You can't refute my "assertion" by virtue of a blatant contradiction that I have already elucidated for you. It doesn't work that way. If you'd like to refute something I have said, you'll need to do a better job expressing your point.

If you want to discuss a particular contradiction you think I've made, please quote the exact post in question, so I may address it. I'm not going to keep going around in circles with you about interpretations of ambiguous statements. Deal with the subject of the thread, which is trading BTCoA raidloot in chests.

Endgame: Doing EE content. There's nothing ambiguous about it. End = level cap, highest difficulty content. Game = DDO. Simple.

Maybe I was a bit loose with my use of the term 'endgame', hence the quotations. Technically, you could say that endgame is capped characters in capped destinies exclusively doing EE content. I think the looser definition, which is also commonly accepted, is the portion of the playerbase at or close to cap, who participate in high level epics and raids.

Whether or not we agree that 'endgame' is exclusively EE on XP capped toons, has no bearing on the principle being discussed here. Let's not deviate from the real debate, by getting bogged down in semantic smokescreens.

So you disagree with the notion that picking a party member to whom you want to pass raid loot is a disservice to the rest of the contributors? Somehow you conveniently took a detour around that point.

I disagree with the notion that anyone but the player in question should have any say in how they choose to dispose of their loot.

Actually, any other poster from my own server is welcome to correct me if I spoke incorrectly on their behalf. Yes, after 7 years of playing on argo - I'd like to think that my exposure to argo's endgame community has been quite extensive. And let me correct you for a moment, I'm not speaking for a significant cross-section of the PLAYERBASE, I'm speaking for a significant cross-section of the END-GAME playerbase.

I'd hazard a guess that only a tiny fraction of people who are pulling BTCoA raid items are doing so in an EE context. That's not what this thread is about, it is about the principle of buying or selling BTCoA raid loot, the majority of which isn't pulled in EE raids. You may well be correct in your blanket statement that this NEVER happens in your EE raiding circles, but that's tangental to this discussion.

I've also stated that there are slip ups, because we do not live in a perfect world. But the overarching theme plays in accordance with the aforementioned system. Somehow you disregarded that one in your response as well.

I'm not even sure what this is supposed to mean. What have I disregarded exactly, be specific.

Actually, I've already identified several fallacies in your rationalization. Try to stay consistent.

My rationalization is that my loot is mine to do with what I see fit. I don't see any inconsitency or fallacy in that basic principle. All I see here is the debate being steered into ever narrowing definitions of the situations that people want to generalize about being privy to. If that's just the tiny fraction of players in your EE raiding circle, it certainly doesn't cover the majority of situations where the practice of trading for BTCoA raid loot occurs.

If EE raids are the only content you play, then you simply aren't qualified to generalise what happens in the other 99% of situations where BTCoA raid loot is being pulled. I started a seperate thread which invites Argo players to discuss the prevalance of the practice being discussed in this thread, which I will leave on the backburner for now, with the forums being in their current state.

Not that any other examples besides the one outlined by the OP of this thread are required to validate my position.

[Kitraine]

The fact is yes - loot rules vary from guild to guild, however there is a difference in what happens in the "end game" guilds and channel runs... and what happens in pug runs. I have found that the end game guild runs on Argo - TEND to roll loot. I have seen some that pass, but never sell.

I know my guild (which is one of the larger end game guilds) has a rule against passing or selling loot. We believe that it took 12 people to earn the chests so if you want the stuff that you pull, then by all means pull it. If not, put it up for roll. If people can't do that, then they can find a guild they better fit with. I would agree, the endgame community on Argo is tight knit and tends to be VERY fair.

I have never agreed with the do whatever I want with my loot. The day I can solo an EE citw -- then yea, it is just my loot. I agree that there is a random roll and something I get in the chest because of it. But if I can not use it, and it is going to be bound, then it is time to remember I didn't get there alone.

It does come down to that what happens on one server does not necessarily happen on another. That is fact.


Now, having said that I wanted to congratulate you all on the fact that you got a thesaurus for your birthday, but how about you try to win an argument with the facts rather than trying to obfuscate them with big words, often used incorrectly.

Finally, yes - you can do what you want with your loot. Just don't expect to do it in my runs and get a spot in the next one.

~Az

[Cetus]

If you want to discuss a particular contradiction you think I've made, please quote the exact post in question, so I may address it. I'm not going to keep going around in circles with you about interpretations of ambiguous statements. Deal with the subject of the thread, which is trading BTCoA raidloot in chests.

Hey, check these out:

My point is that your server isn't any different from any other server and it's fallacious to make that implication.

and....

They do on my server, so what you've said here is obviously utter nonsense or wishful thinking. On your server it might be different, but I seriously doubt it, policing and enforcing it would be a full-time job.

No matter how many artificial rules you put in place, if there's an advantage to be had by going around them, directly to the source then someone will do it and get ahead in doing so, just as in the real world.

These two quotes are direct evidence for the existence of different treatment of endgame loot across servers (assuming, of course, that you are on a different server). This blatantly contradicts the very points being made in those quotes - that servers indeed are the same across the board. There lies your contradiction.


Maybe I was a bit loose with my use of the term 'endgame', hence the quotations. Technically, you could say that endgame is capped characters in capped destinies exclusively doing EE content. I think the looser definition, which is also commonly accepted, is the portion of the playerbase at or close to cap, who participate in high level epics and raids.

I provided more of a quick couple of examples in my description of endgame rather than a coherent definition. If you want to nit pick, go right ahead - but my point remains, folks that run that content predominantly adhere to a fair loot policy. I don't always run EE web - not claiming that I do.

Even if we go with the looser definition (which I actually agree with), the overarching condition is either loot or put up for roll. Period.

However, since you're into quotes....

What I can say for an absolute fact, based on my own personal experience, is that this kind of behavior occurs predominatly among the 'endgame' community. This includes many players who are considered 'uber' in these circles, which consist almost predominantly of 'veterans'.

In that quote, you actually think that this behavior occurs predominantly in the "endgame" community. Then you immediately proceed to throw the majority of "uber" players and veteran folks into that mix, thereby accusing the top players of the server of participating in the selling or trading of btcoa gear. See the issue yet?

Whether or not we agree that 'endgame' is exclusively EE on XP capped toons, has no bearing on the principle being discussed here. Let's not deviate from the real debate, by getting bogged down in semantic smokescreens.

Agreed on this one. It wasn't my intention to come across as if my definition of endgame was exclusive to xp capped toons running only EE. They were extreme examples to get at, what I thought, was a pretty simple thing.

I disagree with the notion that anyone but the player in question should have any say in how they choose to dispose of their loot.

And this is where the disagreement lies. The raid loot that falls under your name is NOT your loot to do as you please outside of keeping it. If I was in the party, I helped you get that loot - the freedom you have is that you can take it for yourself. Otherwise, you give everybody in your party that is interested in the item to have a fair shot at it.

You know how we pass loot on argo? By not rolling against someone we are trying to help out. Its a self-correcting system that requires the input of the entire party. You alone, can't make that decision.

Let me be overtly clear with that last point: If the entire party agrees to give, say, the wizard in the group a stormreaver's tablecloth, then the person who has it puts it up for roll. Wizard rolls. Nobody else rolls against wizard, wizard gets item. Legitimately, with no potential drama.


I'd hazard a guess that only a tiny fraction of people who are pulling BTCoA raid items are doing so in an EE context. That's not what this thread is about, it is about the principle of buying or selling BTCoA raid loot, the majority of which isn't pulled in EE raids. You may well be correct in your blanket statement that this NEVER happens in your EE raiding circles, but that's tangental to this discussion.

I've addressed the EE restriction already. Even in EN or EH fot or citw, loot must be either looted or put up for roll. End of story.

Please explain the point of ever joining a run where folks pass loot to their favorite folks? The moment a person feels slighted in a group where loot was passed, word gets around immediately, and those people get blacklisted.

I'm not even sure what this is supposed to mean. What have I disregarded exactly, be specific.

Quote time!

Complete strawman argument, what's the likelyhood that it happens on one server and not another? All I have to do then is find one example to completely invalidate your argument. Oh look, there's one right there in the first post of this thread, I didn't have to look very far did I?

The next step for me will be to start a new thread to gather specific examples of this happening on YOUR server. I know it has happened on your server, just as much as it has on the other servers. I guarantee it.

So, when words like "majority" and "overarching" are used, do you find that one example that makes your case nullifies the initial point?

You disregard my acknowledgement of the existence of loot passing in some instances on argo. You'll always find an example, but they will exist in some low basal level that has no bearing on the servers general attitude toward the passing of raid loot.

You finding one example MAKES my point that the majority of people on argo don't pass loot. That doesn't mean ALL people on argo don't pass loot. Those that do come out in the wash, and then get blacklisted.

My rationalization is that my loot is mine to do with what I see fit. I don't see any inconsitency or fallacy in that basic principle. All I see here is the debate being steered into ever narrowing definitions of the situations that people want to generalize about being privy to. If that's just the tiny fraction of players in your EE raiding circle, it certainly doesn't cover the majority of situations where the practice of trading for BTCoA raid loot occurs.

I've already addressed these points earlier. Your loot is yours when its unbound. Raid loot is NOT yours to do as you see fit outside of keeping it. You do your grouping circle and/or party a huge disservice by communicating with a person of interest behind everyones back, and giving that person the item.

If EE raids are the only content you play, then you simply aren't qualified to generalise what happens in the other 99% of situations where BTCoA raid loot is being pulled. I started a seperate thread which invites Argo players to discuss the prevalance of the practice being discussed in this thread, which I will leave on the backburner for now, with the forums being in their current state.

Addressed previously

Not that any other examples besides the one outlined by the OP of this thread are required to validate my position.

Lol

Comments in red

Heh, I'd also like to mention how its amazing that you hide behind a forum name, withdrawing any information about your character names and/or server from this discussion because you are afraid that your reputation would get blemished. If you are out to screw other members of your party for the sake of personal gain, despite however generous you previously claimed to be, then it would make sense that you'd keep yourself anonymous.

[HotMaarl]

I have already declined this offer twice in this thread. What makes you think I'm going to change my mind now? It never ceases to amaze me the level of butthurt shown by those who think they are important, when they are spurned. My loot is my loot to do with as I see fit, grow up and get over it.

Since I saved 100's of lives, I am allowed to commit a murder or two.

I've just replaced being a loot giver/stealer with life saver/taker to illustrate the core aspect of your argument.

I understand you wanting to hide your identity. Won't bug you again for it. But you can understand if everyone who reads this threads interprets your actions as cowardly.

[~Greenbearded]

If you want to discuss a particular contradiction you think I've made, please quote the exact post in question, so I may address it. I'm not going to keep going around in circles with you about interpretations of ambiguous statements. Deal with the subject of the thread, which is trading BTCoA raidloot in chests.



Maybe I was a bit loose with my use of the term 'endgame', hence the quotations. Technically, you could say that endgame is capped characters in capped destinies exclusively doing EE content. I think the looser definition, which is also commonly accepted, is the portion of the playerbase at or close to cap, who participate in high level epics and raids.

Whether or not we agree that 'endgame' is exclusively EE on XP capped toons, has no bearing on the principle being discussed here. Let's not deviate from the real debate, by getting bogged down in semantic smokescreens.



I disagree with the notion that anyone but the player in question should have any say in how they choose to dispose of their loot.



I'd hazard a guess that only a tiny fraction of people who are pulling BTCoA raid items are doing so in an EE context. That's not what this thread is about, it is about the principle of buying or selling BTCoA raid loot, the majority of which isn't pulled in EE raids. You may well be correct in your blanket statement that this NEVER happens in your EE raiding circles, but that's tangental to this discussion.



I'm not even sure what this is supposed to mean. What have I disregarded exactly, be specific.



My rationalization is that my loot is mine to do with what I see fit. I don't see any inconsitency or fallacy in that basic principle. All I see here is the debate being steered into ever narrowing definitions of the situations that people want to generalize about being privy to. If that's just the tiny fraction of players in your EE raiding circle, it certainly doesn't cover the majority of situations where the practice of trading for BTCoA raid loot occurs.

If EE raids are the only content you play, then you simply aren't qualified to generalise what happens in the other 99% of situations where BTCoA raid loot is being pulled. I started a seperate thread which invites Argo players to discuss the prevalance of the practice being discussed in this thread, which I will leave on the backburner for now, with the forums being in their current state.

Not that any other examples besides the one outlined by the OP of this thread are required to validate my position.

maan, just stop talking. It's clear that everyone in this thread disagrees with you. Quit while you aren't that far behind plz.

Oh and, if you want to talk, give us your character names.

[moo_cow]

I've noticed a disturbing trend lately where people start offering stuff in exchange for raidloot while it's sitting in the chest.

My problem with this is twofold. First of all, it lets those who have and are willing to spend money to spend on the game get their loot faster than those who can't or refuse to do so. After all, if someone's willing to drop an otto's box to get what they want, what chance do those who can't match the offer have?

My secondary problem is with the sense of camarderie. As more loot is sold, less is put up for roll for anyone else who might want to make use of the item. Thus, raiding feels less like a fun activity done in a big group and more a business venture in which everyone's trying to make plat out of each other while gearing their characters.

Now finally, I'd like to argue that letting other people make offers for your loot is bad for the game as a whole. Some might say that discreetly selling raidloot is no big deal. For example, if Richard the Rogue offers an otto's box in a tell to Larry the Lucky Looter for an Agony and Larry accepts, nobody else will see anything except Larry passing the Agony to Richard. Passing loot is a whole other bag of worms which I won't go into here, but this transaction is easily disguised as helping out a friend. The problem with this activity is that it sends a message to both Richard & Larry that selling loot is ok. Once enough people get this impression, we'll start seeing people trying to auction their raid loot as they pull it. I for one, would not want to raid in such an environment, and thus a clear message should be sent to those who're trying to buy or sell raid loot that it's not ok, they're bad people and they should feel bad.

Where did the good ol' days of rolling for the loot you want go?

Tl;dr: Whine about raidloot selling, one appeal to equality and one slippery slope argument against raidloot selling.

Just curious how many times you have seen this, I have seen this once in 3 years. I have also heard of two recent things from citw from selling raid loot. Usually these things spread among argo pretty well. It is not very common, I just feel like this is a thread about only 1 person rather than a few. I'm not questioning that you have seen this, nor am I saying that your singling anyone out, just curious how often you find this happens. I don't believe it to be a problem among many people just because I don't see it happen a lot, but I see your point how it can spread amongst players as a commonly accepted idea if it goes on.

[~Kanttura]

Just curious how many times you have seen this, I have seen this once in 3 years. I have also heard of two recent things from citw from selling raid loot. Usually these things spread among argo pretty well. It is not very common, I just feel like this is a thread about only 1 person rather than a few. I'm not questioning that you have seen this, nor am I saying that your singling anyone out, just curious how often you find this happens. I don't believe it to be a problem among many people just because I don't see it happen a lot, but I see your point how it can spread amongst players as a commonly accepted idea if it goes on.

Seen it a few times, heard about it a lot more. Always puts a bad taste to my mouth whenever it happens. Then again, I very very rarely raid outside guild nowdays, so it could be that I only see the couple bad apples from dozens or more pug raids being run. I personally doubt that, though.

[~Gaesatae]

Hey, check these out:

My point is that your server isn't any different from any other server and it's fallacious to make that implication.

and....

They do on my server, so what you've said here is obviously utter nonsense or wishful thinking. On your server it might be different, but I seriously doubt it, policing and enforcing it would be a full-time job.

No matter how many artificial rules you put in place, if there's an advantage to be had by going around them, directly to the source then someone will do it and get ahead in doing so, just as in the real world.

These two quotes are direct evidence for the existence of different treatment of endgame loot across servers (assuming, of course, that you are on a different server). This blatantly contradicts the very points being made in those quotes - that servers indeed are the same across the board. There lies your contradiction.

Well we know what they say about assumption..

My usage of 'my server' or 'your server', in various posts throught this thread, is courteous exercise in not making any assumptions about which servers the posters in this thread may have characters on. There is no contradiction here whatsoever, you have made an incorrect assumption. Players do in fact trade BTCoA raid loot on Argo, a fact which has been confirmed on multiple occasions.

I provided more of a quick couple of examples in my description of endgame rather than a coherent definition. If you want to nit pick, go right ahead - but my point remains, folks that run that content predominantly adhere to a fair loot policy. I don't always run EE web - not claiming that I do.

Ok so now you're moving away from the idea that you are privy to what goes on in every EE raid, to knowing what goes on in every raid run on any Epic difficulty on Argo?

I just want to nip something else in the bud here, before you decide to use it to further obfuscate the discussion. At no point did I assert that trading BTCoA raid loot was the predominant practice. Just in case there's any confusion, by predominant, I mean happening more than 50% of the time.

I'd also like to challenge your concept of fair loot policy. By this I will hazard to assume, you mean loot or put up for roll; please correct me if I'm wrong. That being the case, I can say that our definitions of fair are not the same. In my estimation, everyone had their fair chance at getting raid loot when they popped the chest. The random number generator built into the game ensures this is as fair as possible.

All other things being equal, each person who popped the chest had exactly the same chance at getting raid loot. What people choose to do with their loot after that, is entirely up to them. In the same way that how you choose to interact with them, is entirely up to you. If someone else pulls raid loot, they are in no way obliged to give you a second random chance at aquiring it; you have to right to expect them to.

Even if we go with the looser definition (which I actually agree with), the overarching condition is either loot or put up for roll. Period.

So now you want to change the focus of the discussion away from whether trading BTCoA raid loot in chests happens or not on Argo; which has already been confirmed by posters in this thread and the other one I started, to the frequency with which it occurs?

However, since you're into quotes....

What I can say for an absolute fact, based on my own personal experience, is that this kind of behavior occurs predominatly among the 'endgame' community. This includes many players who are considered 'uber' in these circles, which consist almost predominantly of 'veterans'.

In that quote, you actually think that this behavior occurs predominantly in the "endgame" community. Then you immediately proceed to throw the majority of "uber" players and veteran folks into that mix, thereby accusing the top players of the server of participating in the selling or trading of btcoa gear. See the issue yet?

There is no issue here at whatsoever. We are discussing the practice of trading BTCoA raid loot in chests. Most of the raids that get run are on Epic diffuculty. By most I mean more than 50%, although I think you will agree, it's probably more like 99%. That excludes anything but the endgame community, who are by default veterans. This includes what are considered to be top players, I can tell you that from personal experience.

Agreed on this one. It wasn't my intention to come across as if my definition of endgame was exclusive to xp capped toons running only EE. They were extreme examples to get at, what I thought, was a pretty simple thing.

You are claiming to speak for the entire endgame community on Argo, I think it's important that we define exactly what that is, to put the likelyhood of your claims into perspective. Now that you've broadened your definition to a wider playerbase, your claims are even further lacking in credibility.

And this is where the disagreement lies. The raid loot that falls under your name is NOT your loot to do as you please outside of keeping it. If I was in the party, I helped you get that loot - the freedom you have is that you can take it for yourself. Otherwise, you give everybody in your party that is interested in the item to have a fair shot at it.

This is completely delusional thinking.

You know how we pass loot on argo? By not rolling against someone we are trying to help out. Its a self-correcting system that requires the input of the entire party. You alone, can't make that decision.

I most certainly can. Once I have made that decision, I may then put it up for roll. But I will be the judge of that.

Let me be overtly clear with that last point: If the entire party agrees to give, say, the wizard in the group a stormreaver's tablecloth, then the person who has it puts it up for roll. Wizard rolls. Nobody else rolls against wizard, wizard gets item. Legitimately, with no potential drama.

What someone chooses to do with their loot, is entirely up to them.

I've addressed the EE restriction already. Even in EN or EH fot or citw, loot must be either looted or put up for roll. End of story.

Good luck enforcing that.

Please explain the point of ever joining a run where folks pass loot to their favorite folks? The moment a person feels slighted in a group where loot was passed, word gets around immediately, and those people get blacklisted.

Because those folks get exactly the same chance of pulling a piece of raid loot when they pop the chest as everybody else. What happens after that is nooone else's business, not everyone cares about threats of being squelched or blacklisted. Some people thrive on adversity and take particular affront at being told what they can or cannot do, by people attempting to influence their actions by the use of threats or coercion.

Quote time!

Complete strawman argument, what's the likelyhood that it happens on one server and not another? All I have to do then is find one example to completely invalidate your argument. Oh look, there's one right there in the first post of this thread, I didn't have to look very far did I?

The next step for me will be to start a new thread to gather specific examples of this happening on YOUR server. I know it has happened on your server, just as much as it has on the other servers. I guarantee it.

So, when words like "majority" and "overarching" are used, do you find that one example that makes your case nullifies the initial point?

That was my response to the assertion that BTCoA raid loot trading does not occur on Argo. Only later was there an attempt made to backpeddal, by broadening the definition and thereby changing the discussion from absence of occurence to degree of occurence.

You disregard my acknowledgement of the existence of loot passing in some instances on argo. You'll always find an example, but they will exist in some low basal level that has no bearing on the servers general attitude toward the passing of raid loot.

There you go again, presuming to speak for the entire server. By low basal level, do you mean all the other groups that form and complete epic raids, that you don't participate in?

You finding one example MAKES my point that the majority of people on argo don't pass loot. That doesn't mean ALL people on argo don't pass loot. Those that do come out in the wash, and then get blacklisted.

Another example of flawed logic. What an utter fallacy, indentifying any number of examples, without knowing what proportion of the whole they represent, is totally meaningless. It doesn't prove anything, other than forcing poster's in this thread who have claimed that trading BTCoA raid loot never happens on argo, to concede that it in fact does. Your blacklisting apparently has no effect, but there's nothing more amusing than seeing someone who thinks they are important and influencial, realize they are in reality utterly powerless and impotent.

I've already addressed these points earlier. Your loot is yours when its unbound. Raid loot is NOT yours to do as you see fit outside of keeping it. You do your grouping circle and/or party a huge disservice by communicating with a person of interest behind everyones back, and giving that person the item.

But it is mine to do with as I see fit and there's absolutely nothing you can do about it outside of choosing to never run with me again.

Addressed previously

Lol

Didn't take long for someone to confirm what I already guaranteed someone would, in that other thread.

Comments in red

Heh, I'd also like to mention how its amazing that you hide behind a forum name, withdrawing any information about your character names and/or server from this discussion because you are afraid that your reputation would get blemished. If you are out to screw other members of your party for the sake of personal gain, despite however generous you previously claimed to be, then it would make sense that you'd keep yourself anonymous.

So now that you've lost the debate, you're lamenting the fact that you can't intimidate and bully me for revenge. Hell hath no fury..

[~Gaesatae]

Since I saved 100's of lives, I am allowed to commit a murder or two.

I've just replaced being a loot giver/stealer with life saver/taker to illustrate the core aspect of your argument.

I understand you wanting to hide your identity. Won't bug you again for it. But you can understand if everyone who reads this threads interprets your actions as cowardly.

I shouldn't really dignify this with a response, other than to point out the sheer ridiculousness of your analogy. You're the coward for being unable to present a clear and substantial argument, in a fair face to face debate. If you had a leg to stand on, you wouldn't need to try to attack me via back channels.

[HotMaarl]

I shouldn't really dignify this with a response, other than to point out the sheer ridiculousness of your analogy. You're the coward for being unable to present a clear and substantial argument, in a fair face to face debate. If you had a leg to stand on, you wouldn't need to try to attack me via back channels.

You can find me in game on toons in my sig. Let's hear you over a mic. I want to hear these exact words coming out of your trembling voice. I will give you a free Globe of True Imperial Blood if you do this. Since you are a morally bankrupt loot stealer, you will jump at this opportunity.

Fair warning, I will have FRAPS running. Do it.

[~Gaesatae]

You can find me in game on toons in my sig. Let's hear you over a mic. I want to hear these exact words coming out of your trembling voice. I will give you a free Globe of True Imperial Blood if you do this. Since you are a morally bankrupt loot stealer, you will jump at this opportunity.

Fair warning, I will have FRAPS running. Do it.

Despite your threats and personal attacks, I'm not going to report you. I'm just curious to see how desperate you will get in your impotent rage. Well I'm right here Mr ITG, if you have anything rational to say, let's hear it.

[HotMaarl]

Despite your threats and personal attacks, I'm not going to report you. I'm just curious to see how desperate you will get in your impotent rage. Well I'm right here Mr ITG, if you have anything rational to say, let's hear it.

There is no threat in what i posted...or personal attack, so please go ahead and report me. I think you are being overly-sensitive personally. And just so you can rest assured, I am not angry. I just know BS when i hear it, and I highly doubt you can back it up without anonymity. Hence, my offer...which stands btw.

[Cetus]

Do you know what your response looks like?

Here's what 2-3 minutes of some quick editing reveals...

assumption..

assumptions

There is no contradiction here whatsoever

incorrect assumption.

Ok so now you're moving away

obfuscate the discussion.

At no point did I assert

hazard to assume,

please correct me if I'm wrong

our definitions of fair are not the same.

you want to change the focus of the discussion

There is no issue here

(I laughed at this one =D)

You are claiming

I think it's important that we define exactly what that is

Now that you've broadened your definition

your claims are even further lacking

This is completely delusional

by people attempting to influence their actions by the use of threats or coercion.

As someone who attempted to make connections to the real world earlier in this post, I invite you to watch this video

Without coercion or threat, the ancestral human condition would've never changed. The very reason why you are forced to cooperate in civilized living is because of the cost effective ability to project coercive threat. Otherwise, people would do whatever they **** please, often at the expense of others. This is your situation here with raid loot, you need and will be coerced into cooperating with your fellow group mates if you want to sustain a healthy social gaming experience.

Anyway, its not over yet! ..........

That was my response to the assertion that

later was there an attempt made to backpeddal

broadening the definition

changing the discussion

presuming to speak for the entire server

example of flawed logic.

What an utter fallacy,

It doesn't prove anything





....And for the big point:





So now that you've lost the debate,

Do you realize that your entire post was a whinefest in response to disagreement under an anonymous forum name?

All those words and punctuation marks, and you still managed to say absolutely nothing.

[~Gaesatae]

There is no threat in what i posted...or personal attack, so please go ahead and report me. I think you are being overly-sensitive personally. And just so you can rest assured, I am not angry. I just know BS when i hear it, and I highly doubt you can back it up without anonymity. Hence, my offer...which stands btw.

You threaten to blacklist and harass me, then you compare me to a murderer and call me a coward, before pulling an internet tough guy routine by inviting me to a live confrontation, which you want to record for other people to see.

You are calling me over-sensitive?

You are definately angry.

[~Gaesatae]

Do you know what your response looks like?

Here's what 2-3 minutes of some quick editing reveals...



Do you realize that your entire post was a whinefest in response to disagreement under an anonymous forum name?

All those words and punctuation marks, and you still managed to say absolutely nothing.

Yep, you know you've lost. Try not to be a sore loser. You can't win them all.