The Official Bard Enhancements Discussion Thread!

[Shmuel]

Since simple complaining rarely works, I'll try something else - making some specific suggestions. Here are some changes in the bard trees I think would make them better.

In general:

The most important thing to not make bards totally useless in ddo is to make all the effects from bardsongs that affect party members damage, saves, skills, doublestrike, prr, spellpower, etc STACK with everything else in the game. They need to be unique bonuses that can be acquired in NO WAY besides having a bard in the party. This should include all bard abilities, including warchanter capstone.

Also Have spellsinger grant 1 spellpower to positive and (ughh) sonic spells, and have warchanter grant 0.75 to same. For each point spent in the tree.


For spellsinger tree:

Return the percent chance of regening spellpoints to party members based on perform skill as a core ability, perhaps by adding it to the virtuoso core ability. But find somewhere, and add it. This is the most important thing. I cannot stress this enough.

Change Flicker and inspire flicker to auto-proc a diplomacy effect with a +20 bonus when it makes you invisible. Do not make Flicker or inspired flicker a prerequisite for anything else, other than each other.

Have marigold crown grant +1 to all spell DCs.

Eliminate reviving verse, put three tiers of bard spell penetration here instead with no prerequisite.

Where bard spell penetration is, put “adds ice storm to your spell book”. Bards should always have had ice storm anyway.

Eliminate raucous refrain, have a song that grants +10/20/30 stacking universal spellpower to allies here instead make that, and only that a prerequisite for arcane aid, which should be the same song as the spellpower song rather than inspire competence.

Change song of capering to an aoe effect so it has value rather than being a poor substitute for ottos irresistible dance.

Change frolic so it works as freedom of movement used to (correctly)_ work- and grant immunity to everything that impedes movement, whether it is a magical, nonmagical, or special effect (including everything). Make it only 1 minute instead of three, and affected by bard song length modifiers. Otherwise eliminate it entirely and add some other song to bard spellbook in this place, maybe reconstruct, prismatic spray, mass hold monster, or body of the sun.

Change the spellsinger capstone so that instead of granting wail of the banshee it grants either “wall of sound” if you can get to adding that, or energy drain. Bards are not going to get high enough DCs to make wail viable beyond maybe normal difficulty quests against mobs with low saves. Energy drain could actually benefit the party a bit, wall of sound would actually be pretty cool. Also give the spellsinger capstone +4 chr instead of 2 and +20 spellpower instead of 10 to make it competitive with the warchanter one.

Warchanter Tree:

Make skaldic rage stack with all other types of rage and/or extend its duration to double the current duration.

Make inspired bravery cost 2 points per tier and also grant +1 stacking damage to inspire courage.

Make victory song last 2 minutes instead of 20 seconds. Skip the vorpal thing extending it.

Since it is probably pointless to say “eliminate Gathering Cold and everything associated with it”, let me suggest the following changes:

Make armor of frost grant 5/10/15% cold resist rather than stacking +1/2/3 cold resist rather than 12 seconds.

Eliminate the -5 attack penalty associated with howl of the north. This is a tier 5 ability!

Make Ironskin chant grant +5/10/15 stacking prr instead of dr. or make it 3/6/9 dr

[Chette]

Get rid of wail for the top tier core ability in spellsinger/virtuoso and replace it with mass hold monster. Necro is already a difficult class for wizards to use effectively in elite content, and they get bonus feats, enhancements to necro DCs, enervate, and cast it 3 levels higher already. A bard with wail is like a mule with a spinning wheel. No-one knows how he got it and danged if he knows how to use it! Mass hold fits thematically and could potentially make caster bards less than useless.

[Chette]

Most of my prior feedback was on warchanter and general bard stuff. Spent some more time playing around with the spellsinger tree today after TRing one of my characters into a max Charisma build.

1. Why are flicker (which is awful) and reviving verse (nearly useless) prerequisites for the spell penetration enhancements? Thematically there is nothing linking these abilities, and it requires spending an appalling 9 AP to get 3 spell penetration when other classes can purchase it for only 3.

2. The third tier, prodigy, should give +3 the enchantment DCs on the third point, instead of just the temporary SP burst. Bards are already sorely behind wizards for crowd control and need everything they can get.

3. Get rid of wand heightening enhancements (think I mentioned that before in general bard feedback, not sure). I see this has been fixed for some other trees, hope that it's coming soon for the rest of them.

4. Advanced magical studies require the "magical training" feat, which bards don't get...give them the magical training feat, it makes no sense that they don't get it.

*Edit, I see that this is granted in the spellsinger tier 1 magical studies enhancement, the UI is just bugged in that advanced magical studies is still unselectable until you accept your enhancements and then talk to the trainer. Would still like to see this is a general autogranted feat at level 1, just like all the other casters. Not sure why bards get left out.

5. What is the purpose of flicker and inspired flicker? These abilities seem useless, what's the point of turning invisible for 2 seconds? Monsters can still hear you. It will likely not shed agro (the invis proc on the cloak that procs invisibility doesn't) and if it *did* shed agro, that could be really annoying in certain situations.

6. Change the first autogrant to be similar to those for other arcane classes, where you get not just spellpower, but also spell points, for every point spent in the tree. Bards are already woefully light on SP.

7. Add some SLA abilities to the core abilities. Crushing despair, fear, a cure or heal over time spell. The virtuoso fascinate features are not nearly powerful enough (think how many virtuosos you actually see in game...there's a reason for that).

8. Add the +2 spell pen and enchant DCs back to the capstone. Capstones will need to be VERY attractive, since multi-classing adds so much more to a build now.

[Rusty_Can]

4. Advanced magical studies require the "magical training" feat, which bards don't get...give them the magical training feat, it makes no sense that they don't get it.

The Magical Training feat is granted by the third rank of Magical Studies, lvl 1 ability.

[Chette]

The Magical Training feat is granted by the third rank of Magical Studies, lvl 1 ability.

Hmm, then it's not working properly, as I took all three ranks of that ability and was unable to take the tier 5 ability, which showed "Required fear: Magical Training" hilighted in red. I'll bug report this.

Very glad bards are getting this feat, though I'd like to see it as an autogrant for all bards, not requiring any enhancements. Still, I'll take what I can get!

[Shinjiteru]

Change the spellsinger capstone so that instead of granting wail of the banshee it grants either “wall of sound” if you can get to adding that, or energy drain. Bards are not going to get high enough DCs to make wail viable beyond maybe normal difficulty quests against mobs with low saves. Energy drain could actually benefit the party a bit, wall of sound would actually be pretty cool. Also give the spellsinger capstone +4 chr instead of 2 and +20 spellpower instead of 10 to make it competitive with the warchanter one.

I am not sure if the spellsingers who write in the forum represent all spellsingers out there or if I am really representing even a decent amount of warchanter bards. But I really got the impression that spellsingers don't really think that the heal spell is very valuable. I can understand that it's easy to use heal scrolls when you are at caster position anyways but with the heal spell and empower healing you could heal a decent amount of HP where you usually would need at least 2 heal scrolls.

I don't see where the spellsinger capstone needs to compete with the warchanter capstone because from the point of view of a warchanter the heal spell alone is a very strong capstone.

So beeing able to get heal as a spell seems to be much more valuable for a warchanter than for a spellsinger. I would happily trade the +stats of the warchanter capstone for the heal spell. I didn't see many other warchanters comment on the spellsinger capstone, maybe there are not many warchanters around who are not going pure melee and don't think about healing even in emergency situations.

But since I saw several spellsingers degrade the value of getting the heal spell I really wonder if this improvement would better suit the warchanter capstone because I somehow can understand that spellsinger bards say it's not that cool if they are at caster position anyways but as already mentioned, when fighting at front line the ability of beeing able to toss a heal without the need to switch to scrolls first is very valuable for a warchanter. In a real emergency there is no time to back off switch scrolls and use the scroll. Even without backing off first switching items in general takes some time and when using autoattack it doesn't even always work at first try when switching the main hand item, at least my monk really has problems getting back to handwraps while auto attacking with shuriken, and that's without shuriken expertise, 10k stars or any ranged feats.
(And yes I don't like keeping left mouse button pressed for several minutes)

Or am I the only bard who thinks getting the heal spell is awesome? o.O

[Shmuel]

I am not sure if the spellsingers who write in the forum represent all spellsingers out there or if I am really representing even a decent amount of warchanter bards. But I really got the impression that spellsingers don't really think that the heal spell is very valuable. I can understand that it's easy to use heal scrolls when you are at caster position anyways but with the heal spell and empower healing you could heal a decent amount of HP where you usually would need at least 2 heal scrolls.

I don't see where the spellsinger capstone needs to compete with the warchanter capstone because from the point of view of a warchanter the heal spell alone is a very strong capstone.

So beeing able to get heal as a spell seems to be much more valuable for a warchanter than for a spellsinger. I would happily trade the +stats of the warchanter capstone for the heal spell. I didn't see many other warchanters comment on the spellsinger capstone, maybe there are not many warchanters around who are not going pure melee and don't think about healing even in emergency situations.

But since I saw several spellsingers degrade the value of getting the heal spell I really wonder if this improvement would better suit the warchanter capstone because I somehow can understand that spellsinger bards say it's not that cool if they are at caster position anyways but as already mentioned, when fighting at front line the ability of beeing able to toss a heal without the need to switch to scrolls first is very valuable for a warchanter. In a real emergency there is no time to back off switch scrolls and use the scroll. Even without backing off first switching items in general takes some time and when using autoattack it doesn't even always work at first try when switching the main hand item, at least my monk really has problems getting back to handwraps while auto attacking with shuriken, and that's without shuriken expertise, 10k stars or any ranged feats.
(And yes I don't like keeping left mouse button pressed for several minutes)

Or am I the only bard who thinks getting the heal spell is awesome? o.O

You are probably right on several accounts, the ability to cast heal spell is a very nice big bonus. It is also true that it is probably a lot more useful for a melee specced bard (read: warchanter) than a spellsinger. My comment was on the conversely uselessness of the wail spell, which I cannot see any bard using realistically. That, plus the other major deficiencies on the spellsinger tree average out at a value of doom, and not the ironic or sarcastic doom either.

[Chette]

But since I saw several spellsingers degrade the value of getting the heal spell
...
Or am I the only bard who thinks getting the heal spell is awesome? o.O

Not at all! Getting the heal spell is a great bonus, and I wish it was available to all bards. Again, this goes back to my point that this separating of class trees, and points spent per tree requirement, it AWFUL for bards! We are a hybrid class, we do lots of things, we need to be able to spend points in both trees without having to buy up a ton of junk (flicker, I'm looking at you!)

I think the reason why you're not seeing a lot of oohing and awwing over the heal spell is, although it's great, it's not enough. Spellsingers need to be able to do more than heal. Right now, on live, if you're not a melee (or ranged) bard, you are a healer. Offensive casting on a hard is just absolutely wretched, mainly because the spell selection is so limited. You can make the best caster bard in the game, and you're still just a healer 90% of the time, or more. So while making spellsingers better healers is great, it's kinda like, "we get it, we hjeal, we've been doing that for 5 years now, you don't need 60 charisma to pick your nose and heal people, so can we get some offensive spells already?!"

So, in short, I agree with you, heal is awesome and I wish I could get it for my melee bard! But spellsingers need more love for their offensive casting ability and spell selection.

[Rusty_Can]

Hmm, then it's not working properly, as I took all three ranks of that ability and was unable to take the tier 5 ability, which showed "Required fear: Magical Training" hilighted in red. I'll bug report this.

It seems an UI issue; the following worked for me:
- max Magical Studies: Tier 5 Advanced Magical Studies is still "red boxed" and cannot be selected;
- hit Accept;
- close the UI and talk with the trainer again: Tier 5 Advanced Magical Studies is not "red boxed" anymore and can be selected;
- select Advanced Magical Studies.

[Chette]

It seems an UI issue; the following worked for me:
- max Magical Studies: Tier 5 Advanced Magical Studies is still "red boxed" and cannot be selected;
- hit Accept;
- close the UI and talk with the trainer again: Tier 5 Advanced Magical Studies is not "red boxed" anymore and can be selected;
- select Advanced Magical Studies.

Thanks for the info!

[Failedlegend]

Bard

- Both trees can mix and match without much issue, Warchanters easily grabbing the SP bonus, longer songs and Con/Perform bonuses from tier 1 and the Core # 1 of spellsinger is mildly useful to Warchanters as spending a few points in SS increasing your self-healing a bit. As for spellsingers dipping into Warchanter its less appealing than the other way round but I wouldn't mind picking up Enchant Weapon or the extra songs and the Skaldic Rage would occasionally be useful if you just feel like smacking somethings.

In general the main issues with the bard lines is durations of well everything needs to be MUCH longer, moving spellpower to skills is dumb it should just be a natural thing for any spell casting class to receive in trees, most of bard buffs are copied in equipment please change either the equipments to a different bonus or make bard buffs "Bard" type so its stacks with anything.

Spellsinger

- The Spellsinger tree is amazing in general I love most of the abilities of the trees but the core abilties a quite underwhelming...Music of the X...really 3 of them I'd say make the second core ability Music of the X than have the next two add new ones as a "secondary" addition to something else..maybe have virtuoso not require 18 Lvls of Bard...imo 12 is a better place for that..something like this

Core 1: Spellsinger: Boni for every AP/Core ability perfect
Core 2: Music of the Sewers..underwhelming but its a level 6 ability so that's ok
Core 3: Dashing Strike* & Music of the Dead
Core 4: Virtuoso & Music of the Makers
Core 5: Hero's Health*
Core 6: Maestro of Life and Death: Perfect not some powerful that a multi-class bard is shunned but powerful enough that you do want it.


*Dashing Strike allows any finessable weapon to use Charisma for To-hit/Damage
*Hero's Health: Add 1/2 Cha Mod to saves

Other than that the Spellsinger Tree is awesome (aside from what is mentioned in general)

Warchanter

- I LOVE the updates to Warchanter especially Skaldic rage it relies of songs/song duration increases instyead of Con/Barb Levels so your not forced top splash for that anymore and I just love that Skald got included I love Skalds , non-dispellable Mass GH woot, Victory song makes Bards so much more attractive as melee combatants and the capstone is really tempting me to make a Single-Class Bard especially since Skaldic Rage makes it so I don't feel like I'm missing out by not spalshing Barb and I LOVE multi-classing. In short Warchanter does what it's supposed to makes a Warrior Bard...I cannot wait to see what the 3rd Bard Prestige will be..maybe one that focuses more on healing?

[Systern]

[COLOR="#FF8C00"]
...

Warchanter

- I LOVE the updates to Warchanter especially Skaldic rage it relies of songs/song duration increases instyead of Con/Barb Levels so your not forced top splash for that anymore and I just love that Skald got included I love Skalds , non-dispellable Mass GH woot, Victory song makes Bards so much more attractive as melee combatants and the capstone is really tempting me to make a Single-Class Bard especially since Skaldic Rage makes it so I don't feel like I'm missing out by not spalshing Barb and I LOVE multi-classing. In short Warchanter does what it's supposed to makes a Warrior Bard...I cannot wait to see what the 3rd Bard Prestige will be..maybe one that focuses more on healing?

Try it. Make a new character on Lammania and spend the time in the dojo to level it up and stuff. I played a good 5 hours to actually try it, get reasonable gearing, and see how it actually plays.
The reality does not live up to our enthusiasm.

Skaldic Rage only extends by song duration enhancements, not class levels. At Level 20 you get the same 1:36 you get at level 2.
The tier 5 enhancements are underwhelming:

• Rallying Cry does not stack with your other class abilities, which you get sooner and have more functionality to them and an increased duration.
• Weapon Training Group still requires Weapon Focus, a feat that adds as much to a character as Skill focus:Jump. (+1 to hit, a .2% in crease in hit probability)
• Howl of the North requires Trained Weapon Group, although the arrow is missing from the display. (Read the description) It is essentially Overwhelming Critical at heroic levels, with the Power Attack penalty doubled up on you. Since you're taking Weapon Focus you won't be able to fit in OC in a single class build.
• Armorer is just 1 rank. The only Tier 5 enhancement worth having is 2AP.

You're losing a lot of devotion spellpower. A character copied over went from having 126 positive spellpower to 83. A new test toon that has 69 points in warchanter (everything except Weapon Training for 2 AP, because I didn't take WFocus), is missing tomes (would add an additional 4%, +2 to int skills, +2 to wis skills), gets 100 Positive Spellpower while wearing the Gauntlets of Eternity (Is raid loot going to become a requirement for basic functionality?) Putting 43 AP into Spellsinger to make up that difference means you are no longer a warchanter.

The class now plays like a monk-in-molasses. All the clicky intensity of a monk, just with 4-7 seconds between strikes to combo. Moves that leave you stuck performing an animation, defenseless.
The Level 12 Enhancement of Inspired Bravery 3 is now part of the capstone. Bards were weak before and encouraged multiclassing. Now that multiclassing is punished.
Victory Song seems cool until you realize that the 12 second buff starts ticking before you can even perform your next action such as a basic attack. Level 18 core ability that gives you a practical 10 seconds of +5 to hit and 5 PRR.
Perform still feels like a skill tax. Your sonic spells aren't worth using, with no ability to crit without investing into the Spellsinger tree, and still have the lowest base damage of any element of spells.


It looks new and shiny, but trying it out shows it's not any better.

[iMoons]

Not at all! Getting the heal spell is a great bonus, and I wish it was available to all bards. Again, this goes back to my point that this separating of class trees, and points spent per tree requirement, it AWFUL for bards! We are a hybrid class, we do lots of things, we need to be able to spend points in both trees without having to buy up a ton of junk (flicker, I'm looking at you!)

I think the reason why you're not seeing a lot of oohing and awwing over the heal spell is, although it's great, it's not enough. Spellsingers need to be able to do more than heal. Right now, on live, if you're not a melee (or ranged) bard, you are a healer. Offensive casting on a hard is just absolutely wretched, mainly because the spell selection is so limited. You can make the best caster bard in the game, and you're still just a healer 90% of the time, or more. So while making spellsingers better healers is great, it's kinda like, "we get it, we hjeal, we've been doing that for 5 years now, you don't need 60 charisma to pick your nose and heal people, so can we get some offensive spells already?!"

So, in short, I agree with you, heal is awesome and I wish I could get it for my melee bard! But spellsingers need more love for their offensive casting ability and spell selection.

I completely agree here. Looking at these changes I was really excited to see Heal as a spell option with "Maestro of Life and Death" (I'll take Wail as well, though several people have already commented about wall of sound). But I don't see any reason for this ability to be set as the Spellsinger capstone! Having Heal would be very valuable to Warchanters and bards with splashes in other classes -- I think setting it at the Spellsinger Bard 18 // 5th core ability slot would allow for more jack-of-all-trades builds. It would easily fit to swap the "Virtuoso" ability's song effects for the capstone to make the PrE a little more versatile... You would still need to dedicate a significant amount of AP to get the ability without locking yourself out of other options. That sort of flexibility is ultimately the point of the bard class.

Also, I know it's been said, but please make Perform govern positive spellpower for bards. Or at least make the Heal skill a class skill for bards. Dumping all those points into a cross-class skill really hurts =\

[Wanesa]

But I don't see any reason for this ability to be set as the Spellsinger capstone! Having Heal would be very valuable to Warchanters and bards with splashes in other classes

That is the point! I perfectly understand this decision

Also, I know it's been said, but please make Perform govern positive spellpower for bards. Or at least make the Heal skill a class skill for bards. Dumping all those points into a cross-class skill really hurts =\

12pts (25 pts for class skill) on positive spell power really does a lot (ironic) Taking Maximize or Empower Heal feat (or both) + devotion item + ~60 USP, and still i don't want to waste skill points on the Heal

[Chette]

From the release notes

NEW Words of Encouragement, Obstinance, and High Spirits now provide +4 Positive Spell Power per rank (up to +36 Positive Spell Power total).

While it's great that you put some positive spellpower into the warchanter tree, I don't think you could have chosen a WORSE place to put it.

All three of the enhancements are useless, and this has been said more than once in this feedback thread, which makes me worry that nobody is even reading it (there have certainly been no responses so far).

Words of Encouragement - 30 temporary HP.
Those will be gone from a single hit in anything above epic casual, or from a single glancing blow in anything above epic normal. Do you not realize that? Temporary HP are worthless.

Obstinance - Saving throws when below certain health thresholds.
Nobody takes enhancements like these. Specifically aiming to be below your maximum HP is a dangerous and downright stupid way to play. Enhancements like these should not exist as they encourage reckless gameplay. Additionally, you do not have control over your HP level, as in many, there will be somebody else in your party capable of healing you. Horrible enhancement, not worth taking.

High Spirits - Immune to crushing despair, waves of fatique, and waves of exhaustion, sleep and fatigue.
I can't think of a single place in the game where sleep is used. Crushing despair is used fairly infrequently and is countered by good hope, a spell every bard carries (and will have to cast if this is cast on the party anyway, to get rid of the debuff on others). Fatigue and exhaustion are easily cured by a lesser restoration potion. This is the best enhancement of the three, as it actually does *something*, but it's certainly not worth 3 points.

So as you have it, the spellpower is the only redeeming feature of these enhancements. That means that you're essentially spending 9 AP to obtain 36 positive spellpower. Currently on live you can spend 3 AP to get 40 spellpower. Or you can spend 6 for 60, or 10 for 80. For nearly the same AP cost you're getting less than half the spellpower.

I appreciate that you are trying to improve warchanter, it's in dire need. Thank you for putting in some positive spellpower. However, please consider putting it in with abilities that we will actually use, or at least drastically reduce the cost (e.g. make it 10 positive spellpower at 1 AP each instead of 4 for 1 AP).

[LilyOphelia]

While it's great that you put some positive spellpower into the warchanter tree, I don't think you could have chosen a WORSE place to put it.

All three of the enhancements are useless, and this has been said more than once in this feedback thread, which makes me worry that nobody is even reading it (there have certainly been no responses so far).

I'm not saying that your thoughts are wrong here, but I can see how linking something you really want (positive spell power) with enhancements that are not super amazing can temper them into okay choices. Now, you can look at those APs as +USP buys that also give the additional effects which aren't very strong, but aren't awful to have as freebies.

[Chette]

I'm not saying that your thoughts are wrong here, but I can see how linking something you really want (positive spell power) with enhancements that are not super amazing can temper them into okay choices. Now, you can look at those APs as +USP buys that also give the additional effects which aren't very strong, but aren't awful to have as freebies.

That's why I pointed out that what you're basically getting is 36 positive spellpower, and nothing else, for 9AP (as the "else" is worthless). Wheras on live right now you can get 80 positive spellpower for 10AP. This change doubles the cost of positive spellpower. If the positive spellpower were lumped in with actual useful enhancements, then them being double the cost wouldn't be a big deal, as you'd also be getting another benefit.

[Aashrym]

That's why I pointed out that what you're basically getting is 36 positive spellpower, and nothing else, for 9AP (as the "else" is worthless). Wheras on live right now you can get 80 positive spellpower for 10AP. This change doubles the cost of positive spellpower. If the positive spellpower were lumped in with actual useful enhancements, then them being double the cost wouldn't be a big deal, as you'd also be getting another benefit.

At low levels (when we can take it) words of encouragement is not bad. You're right about running around in epics with it as pretty much useless.

The chain looks more like a low spell power chain with some added minor quirks. At least the spell power cost is better than 1 per AP spent. Compared to live it's a poor investment; in the new enhancements compared to other classes the AP cost for positive spell power might be worth it. 9 AP for 36 positive spell power compares rather well to 9 AP for 9 universal spells power or the 9 AP for 13 positive spells power we saw in the cleric healing tree.

It almost looks like the opposite effect we have in other trees. In other tree AP spend gets better enhancements with less spell power and in these enhancement the spell power return is better for the cost but the enhancements are weaker.

[HatsuharuZ]

The Warchanter tree doesn't address the main problem that melee bards on Live face: They HAVE to multiclass in order to be effective in melee combat.

I would suggest allowing them to obtain additional weapon profiency/proficiencies at a MUCH lower level than 12. Also, please get rid of the weapon focus requirement. Perhaps martial weapon proficiency could be a level 3 core ability, instead?

[Noctus]

Please, please, double pretty please, drop that Weapon Focus feattax for Warchanters!

Warchanters are ultra-strapped for feats, and that is because why almost all of them splash Fighter to get the feeds they NEED to contribute to melee DPS with more effect than throwing cottonballs and wielding featherdusters.


If you feel the irrational need to keep it in at least make it an autogrant in a core ability.