Capstones need to be as powerful as 2 levels in any class

[voodoogroves]

Players don't need to go overboard on what multi-classing is giving up, because it's not a lot at this point, but I also don't think we should get too carried away with more benefits to pure classing in general and just look at some particularly poor level 18 and capstone abilities because I hope to eventually see 3 trees with good enhancements in each.

My bigger issue is really around if the PREs mandate (effectively and practically) certain build styles and start making everyone look very similar. Are sorcs going to be more and more specialized as "one element DPSers"? Are they going to have an option, if the player chose, to go for DCs in schools other than conjuration / evocation?


That's the real rub and disappointment.

[Aashrym]

My bigger issue is really around if the PREs mandate (effectively and practically) certain build styles and start making everyone look very similar. Are sorcs going to be more and more specialized as "one element DPSers"? Are they going to have an option, if the player chose, to go for DCs in schools other than conjuration / evocation?


That's the real rub and disappointment.

You mean like TWF'ing styles, monkchers, or now cleave spammers and shiradi evokers? Flavor-of-the-month builds and variations on those builds will always exist. Players gravitate towards what they think will be the most effective for the most part. That doesn't matter on what system changes to what system; it will always occur.

Sorcerers can go drow as an alternative and gain +3 enchantment DC's over live. The real issue there is that they are still stuck with savant in one form or another and that was something I would consider a bad implementation. That does stifle variety when the trees are all different flavors of the same thing.

Some classes, like rogues and rangers and monks, look like there will be a variety of possibilities. Other classes, like sorcerers in particular, look like multiple flavors of the same basic idea. I'd take nightmare spinner as an alternative; shaken aura and deadly nightmares (WILL DC instant death effect; DC=10+classlvl+CHAmod) seem like useful abilities. I'd take that for the 3rd bard tree too for that matter.

The new system would promote a lot more variety as more trees become available if there are goodies in each tree. I'd like to see 5 trees for every class where we still have a 3 class tree limit. That makes for hard thinking and choices but given how long 2 trees seems to be taking I can't see something like that ever happening.

[Singular]

Not what i see.
Most pure are gimps/newbs who either have no clue or dont care about dominating content.
Which is fine for them but if you want power then staying pure is atm even as Wiz not really the best option.
(DC casting beyond eH is broken anyway so why even bother when you can have evasion and full umd & trapping)

Capstones need to be so good that it can compensate for the loss of 2feats&evasion or evasion&umd&traps and more.
Especially now that it opens you also the first tiers of new trees, given that this often makes now splashing more then 2 lvl interesting but often 2lvl is all you have as wiggle room anyway if you want your base class to stay viable.

Fazit, Capstone needs to be a HELL better then only evasion or it will again be something for newbs.

I like playing pure, but I have to agree with you. I have four mains: artie, fighter, cleric and sorcerer. Only on my artie does it feel completely justified, b/c the current, live capstone, which won't be available to an xbow-rune arm using artie after the enhancement pass, is absolutely worth it.

My air-savant sorc, with evoc, greater evoc, +2 evoc item, +1 epic cha, +1 epic cha, simply cannot hit the DCs in EE (and has some troubles in EH w/all the evasion mobs) and has miserable saves such that I put her into Shiradi and am contemplating an LR to splash in 2 levels of pali. The fighter capstone doesn't even register as working on my character sheet and it doesn't seem to stack w/haste, so what's the point? (unless I am wrong - and would like to be corrected!). The cleric is only a back-up so I have no clue whether it's worthwhile or not, but I haven't noticed anything special from lvl 19 to 20 on her.

[Dmnqwk]

I'm not sure Capstones themselves need to be powerful, it's a mistake to consistantly buff things as it causes power creep.
The bigger issue is splashing 2 levels for overpowered benefits.

Monk: 2 levels buys you 2 feats, unarmed attack ability, evasion and +3 to all saves, access to +1 wis
Paladin: Cha to saves (A Possible +15/20 for some), Lay on Hands, access to +1 cha
Fighter: Tower Shields, 2 feats, access to +1 str
Rogue: Evasion, Trap Skills, UMD, Sneak damage 1d6+3
Ranger: Bow Strength, 2wf,rapid shot, sprint boost.

What needs to happen is these kinds of splashes need to be reduced in power so that people who multiclass are taking more than 1 or 2 levels.
DDO is based upon DnD but not strictly the same, there is nothing against a little diversion and doing the following (as an example):

1. Primary Class Abilities: Divine Grace/Evasion are relabelled as Primary Class Abilities. When you reach level 8, your highest (or 1st) class is labelled your primary class. This would prevent a lot of splashing.
2. Create limits on these abilities - such as monk evasion working when centered only, Divine Grace being capped at 4/8/12/infinite at levels 2/8/14/20 thereafter. This would help to limit the power of the splashes to an extent that capstones dont need to become godly to compensate.

Noone wants their power to be diminished, and I know many people will complain that this would reduce diversity... what they dont realise is once diversity is reduced, skill becomes a more important factor.

[Skellimancer]

Can I finally be a level 20 Paladin without feeling gimped please, devs?

[Teh_Troll]

Can I finally be a level 20 Paladin without feeling gimped please, devs?

No.

[Satyriasys]

I'm not sure Capstones themselves need to be powerful, it's a mistake to consistantly buff things as it causes power creep.
The bigger issue is splashing 2 levels for overpowered benefits.

Monk: 2 levels buys you 2 feats, unarmed attack ability, evasion and +3 to all saves, access to +1 wis
Paladin: Cha to saves (A Possible +15/20 for some), Lay on Hands, access to +1 cha
Fighter: Tower Shields, 2 feats, access to +1 str
Rogue: Evasion, Trap Skills, UMD, Sneak damage 1d6+3
Ranger: Bow Strength, 2wf,rapid shot, sprint boost.

What needs to happen is these kinds of splashes need to be reduced in power so that people who multiclass are taking more than 1 or 2 levels.
DDO is based upon DnD but not strictly the same, there is nothing against a little diversion and doing the following (as an example):

1. Primary Class Abilities: Divine Grace/Evasion are relabelled as Primary Class Abilities. When you reach level 8, your highest (or 1st) class is labelled your primary class. This would prevent a lot of splashing.
2. Create limits on these abilities - such as monk evasion working when centered only, Divine Grace being capped at 4/8/12/infinite at levels 2/8/14/20 thereafter. This would help to limit the power of the splashes to an extent that capstones dont need to become godly to compensate.

Noone wants their power to be diminished, and I know many people will complain that this would reduce diversity... what they dont realise is once diversity is reduced, skill becomes a more important factor.

I agree

[Ironclans_evil_twin]

This would prevent a lot of splashing.

I agree and it would prevent a lot of people from bothering to continue to play the game.

Do not want.

[Ironclans_evil_twin]

Can I finally be a level 20 Paladin without feeling gimped please, devs?

No but if it's any consolation you can't level one to 15 and ad a multiclass without also feeling gimp either

[sephiroth1084]

Ideally any capstone is at least as good as Evasion (if not better).

We understand some work may need to be done on individual abilities to achieve the proper balance.

Here's a suggestion: rather than trying (just) to balance PrE capstones against a 2-level splash in some powerfully front-loaded classes, why not, in addition to the PrE capstones, add a class feature to each class at level 20? That would add a little more incentive to going 20 levels in a class, and does so without also requiring the character to spend X AP in a particular area.

Those +2 stat capstones? Just add that automatically to each class, maybe, and with something else attached that is generally useful to characters of that class. Then you can use the PrE capstones to do something PrE-centric without leaving someone in a different PrE feeling like they are missing out on am important core-class feature.

For example, Weapons of Good (the paladin capstone) is rather important to ALL paladins, not just KotC, so that could get added to the list of class feat(ure)s the paladin gets at level 20 automatically, while then including capstones tied more specifically to each of the KotC and Defender PrEs in their respective trees. Ditto for granting rogues additional Sneak Attack damage as their capstone, or monks passive Ki generation and Concentration.

[ZeebaNeighba]

Anyone else feel it's too hard to get capstones in the new enhancements even if you are pure? Requiring 40 AP spent, as well as all the other core abilities is a hefty restriction for a lot of builds. That just makes it easier to skip the capstone. On live all you need to do is pony up 2 AP on a pure build and you're set, not in the new pass.

So it would reduce a lot of classes to just their lv20 benefits. Basically, for casters, there are spell slots, SP and caster levels. Fighters, wizards, and artis get a bonus feat. Monk gets a few things, more AC, more base damage, DR, the charisma dance ability that most builds can't use effectively. Barbarian gets a point of DR, improved uncanny dodge and better raging. Favored soul gets DR 10. Outside of that...nothing, really.

Level 19 is even worse. Rogue gets a feat and sneak attack die at 19, and other than caster abilities that's about it.

So it really would be nice to have the capstones as accessible as they are on live when you do go pure, I don't care if you're limited to one again like on live. Though if ALL the capstones are weak, maybe we could just toss that restriction out and call it a day (though there are some strong capstones...bard's heal+wail, for example)

[SirValentine]

Anyone else feel it's too hard to get capstones in the new enhancements even if you are pure? Requiring 40 AP spent, as well as all the other core abilities is a hefty restriction for a lot of builds. That just makes it easier to skip the capstone. On live all you need to do is pony up 2 AP on a pure build and you're set, not in the new pass.
<snip>
So it really would be nice to have the capstones as accessible as they are on live when you do go pure

Yes, yes, YES! I've said this repeatedly during the alpha/beta. 40-spent-in-tree is more restrictive than 20 class levels, and FAR more restrictive than what we have now.

[Gwyxxx]

I'm not sure Capstones themselves need to be powerful, it's a mistake to consistantly buff things as it causes power creep.
The bigger issue is splashing 2 levels for overpowered benefits.

Monk: 2 levels buys you 2 feats, unarmed attack ability, evasion and +3 to all saves, access to +1 wis
Paladin: Cha to saves (A Possible +15/20 for some), Lay on Hands, access to +1 cha
Fighter: Tower Shields, 2 feats, access to +1 str
Rogue: Evasion, Trap Skills, UMD, Sneak damage 1d6+3
Ranger: Bow Strength, 2wf,rapid shot, sprint boost.

What needs to happen is these kinds of splashes need to be reduced in power so that people who multiclass are taking more than 1 or 2 levels.
DDO is based upon DnD but not strictly the same, there is nothing against a little diversion and doing the following (as an example):

1. Primary Class Abilities: Divine Grace/Evasion are relabelled as Primary Class Abilities. When you reach level 8, your highest (or 1st) class is labelled your primary class. This would prevent a lot of splashing.
2. Create limits on these abilities - such as monk evasion working when centered only, Divine Grace being capped at 4/8/12/infinite at levels 2/8/14/20 thereafter. This would help to limit the power of the splashes to an extent that capstones dont need to become godly to compensate.

Noone wants their power to be diminished, and I know many people will complain that this would reduce diversity... what they dont realise is once diversity is reduced, skill becomes a more important factor.

Not Agree.
Nerfing Multiclassing it's a Boring Way to Favor Pure Classes.

[Iriale]

Here's a suggestion: rather than trying (just) to balance PrE capstones against a 2-level splash in some powerfully front-loaded classes, why not, in addition to the PrE capstones, add a class feature to each class at level 20? That would add a little more incentive to going 20 levels in a class, and does so without also requiring the character to spend X AP in a particular area.

Those +2 stat capstones? Just add that automatically to each class, maybe, and with something else attached that is generally useful to characters of that class. Then you can use the PrE capstones to do something PrE-centric without leaving someone in a different PrE feeling like they are missing out on am important core-class feature.

For example, Weapons of Good (the paladin capstone) is rather important to ALL paladins, not just KotC, so that could get added to the list of class feat(ure)s the paladin gets at level 20 automatically, while then including capstones tied more specifically to each of the KotC and Defender PrEs in their respective trees. Ditto for granting rogues additional Sneak Attack damage as their capstone, or monks passive Ki generation and Concentration.

+1!

Not capstones in enhancements, yes more class high level class features.

[shad0wguns]

fighter capstone is very good for my build atleast since i use duel weapons and will switch to pinion when i need to range. Since the capstone benefits both melee and ranged its perfect for me.

[Mister_Shevek]

Multiclassing and related build experimentation is what makes this game unique compared to most other MMOs who offer nowhere near this much build freedom. It would be a serious mistake on the devs part to limit splashing anymore than they already have (by having a 3 class limit). Making capstones better is fine. However, nerfing splashes is bad. If anything, I would argue they should make other classes MORE multiclass-worthy. I would recommend looking looking at various house rules fixes for 3E's broken arcane/divine multiclassing to allow for more viable fighter/mages and the like (or at the very least feats like practiced spellcaster or actual PRCs like arcane trickster/etc).

[Vanhooger]

1. Capstone should be auto granted and not 40 point in ench tree.
2. Capstone should be a buff not a debuff like +10% sp cost on sorcerer capstone! Remove it!

What I'm thinking...add an extra feat, free of choice, that would be interesting and not overpowered.

[bruener]

I have been over all down right unimpressed/disappointed by the 20 levels in a class required capstones. By and large with the exception of monk, barbarian and FVS, level 19 and 20 are dead levels with little benefit that would not be great out weighted by two levels in a complimentary class or one in two of them.

If anything the enhancement pass will further enhance the value of multi-classing 1-5 levels in another class as it will open a host of other abilities that were not present in a pure character. The 20 level capstones need to be adjusted to be in line with the with the level of power a character must give up in order to take a sole class into epic levels.

The Capstones needs to be far and away the best enhancement on the entire tree and should make the character truly outstanding in their focused field.

It is difficult to make suggestions on what the capstones should be as not all three trees are even close to what I had expect and the current capstones are basically imprints of the old ones. I will use my example for the cleric trees that should have been.

Diety Weapon / Melee focused
The tree should have been about increasing your dietys favored weapon, spending turn atempts to increase melee damage and significantly discount personal combat buffs. The idea being a melee battle cleric that hits hard but still has most of its mana available for healing.
The capstone would be While wielding your dietys favored weapon you have a full base attack bonus, add your wisdom bonus to melee in addition to strength and your next healing domain spell after a critical hit has empowered healing added for free.

Healing Conjuration and Abjuration
This tree should have been the healer tree. The abilities would be mostly about improving healing effectiveness, adding alternative healing methods, mostly through adding effects to the cure lines, improving efficiency to the point of empowered healing being free-ish, increasing the range and area of healing spells and improved protective buffs. The idea of this tree is to make healing fast and easy allowing either a relatively weak game player to fulfill his party role or a skilled player to micro manage a ton and use a combination of healing and crowd control to help a whole raid.
The capstone should be a positive aura stance that heals all within it, possibly with the exclusion of the cleric it is centered on, with added stacking protective buffs and periodic negative effect cleansing, side effect of turn undead triggering on the same timer as the cleansing.

Exorcist/ Holy Vengeance
This tree should be all about light, force and alignment damage. Alternative uses for turn undead, possibly to include daemons, devils and aberrations. Spell like abilities that can do respectable amounts of damage for low SP costs and strong crowd control abilities. This tree should definitely include a silence SLA that can be point in space targeted. The purpose of this tree is similar to that of the melee cleric. Give them something to do that can help the party damage wise without sapping their SP too much so that they can still heal sufficiently without just becoming a nanny.
The capstone that I would see fitting with this tree the most would be a SLA similar to meteor storm but light instead of fire damage and it would do slightly less the meteor swarm does now to most targets but would do double damage to undead, devils, daemons and aberrations. I would also give the explosion splash positive energy that heals players and damages any of those four types.

Remember these capstones are intended to be VERY strong as a balance to the sacrifice you make in dedicating yourself to a single class and a single tree. I would love to hear what other capstones people feel should be made for either already released trees, yet to be released trees and other trees that should have been.

P.S. Core abilities should be auto granted as you are already paying a cost in level and in points spent in tree, but if so capstone would need to be purchased if at exactly 40 or free if above 40.

It's not the capstone that's the issue, it's the particular class. Any DC caster gets a bigger pay off staying pure Capstone on not. QP monks and assassins are better staying pure even without the capstone. There are classes that add nothing beyond 2, 6 or 12 lvls. That's a class issue not a capstone issue. Like pally or ranger. They both benefit from splashing because they are kinda blah otherwise. Tend to be weak at later levels. Don't think a good capstone is going to fix that. I have capped both pally and ranger(many years ago tho). Some classes just need some love is all.

On that note I wouldn't mind if every class in your splash had to have evasion as a class feat in order to keep it. I'm sure many disagree but IDK. Tired off people splashing for evasion to make up for poor skills.

[HastyPudding]

Tired off people splashing for evasion to make up for poor skills.

^THIS^


It's amazing that this thread is almost a year old and still nothing has been done about it other than a simple dev post that explains how little they know about playing the game. I've been fighting for better capstones since U19 when this multiclass mess started. Everything I need to say has already been said in this thread. A capstone needs to be worth the effort of going pure, but some classes are blatantly more powerful than others (looking at you, 2-6 levels of Monk) and this multiclass issue will never, ever be changed until the low-hanging fruit and front-loaded classes (looking at you, 2 levels of paladin) are looked at with a really big magnifying glass. This game lacks a very serious attention to balance.

Capstones are simply not good enough, hands down. Period. End of discussion.