Capstones need to be as powerful as 2 levels in any class

[~Krio2gen]

Capstone or Evasion.

How can Capstone compete vs Evasion if Evasion is "elemental damage reduction"?

The only way I see that I'd take Capstone and not Evasion, if I'd lets say get perma File Shield:Cold, Fire, Elec and Earth. All at the same time, and stacking with everything else.

An idea is that you just modify existing effect. That Fire Resistance, Cold Resistance item/spell/potion/etc. It now gives 10, 20, 30,... flat DR vs elements. Change it into 10%, 20%, 30% ...

Caster can cast a spell, anyone can drink a pot (maybe not the best, but better then nothing), get a nice item, slot a gem. It may not be as good as Evasion, but also not that bad. And as Evasion is not for free (must splash class, have pretty high Reflex saves), even I'd think twice before I splash Rogue/Monk just for Evasion.

[~Erzmeister]

If a Capstone were as powerful as 2 levels in any class, multiclassing would simply be a fluffy way to gimp your character and make you a laughing stock.

Why?

A Capstone is ever only a part of what the 2 last levels of a class give you. Those are what you ahve to compare in this discussion here.

So i the capstone alone is worth more, or even as good as, 2 levels of a possibel multiclass splash, and you always get (Capstone + power of last 2 levels) --> Multiclassing becomes a Newbie trap.

This is very bad for the game as what Newbie-traps are + push DDO into becoming one of those 84523 MMOs out there where you can play pure classes to your hearts desire.

[SerPounce]

If a Capstone were as powerful as 2 levels in any class, multiclassing would simply be a fluffy way to gimp your character and make you a laughing stock.

Why?

A Capstone is ever only a part of what the 2 last levels of a class give you. Those are what you ahve to compare in this discussion here.

So i the capstone alone is worth more, or even as good as, 2 levels of a possibel multiclass splash, and you always get (Capstone + power of last 2 levels) --> Multiclassing becomes a Newbie trap.

This is very bad for the game as what Newbie-traps are + push DDO into becoming one of those 84523 MMOs out there where you can play pure classes to your hearts desire.

I agree this is the greater risk. Underpower a capstone and you gimp one build (pure), overpower them, and you gimp dozens upon dozens of multiclass variations.

I know there's a group who don't like the idea of people getting a (usually quite modest) advantage by using a well thought out multiclass build, but it's also what makes the game special for a lot of people. I spend almost as much time thinking about builds while I'm on the treadmill, or stuck in traffic, etc than I do playing the game. If the answer to "how should I build this toon" was "stay pure" 90% of the time, that would be sad.

[notvoodoogroves]

I agree this is the greater risk. Underpower a capstone and you gimp one build (pure), overpower them, and you gimp dozens upon dozens of multiclass variations.

I know there's a group who don't like the idea of people getting a (usually quite modest) advantage by using a well thought out multiclass build, but it's also what makes the game special for a lot of people. I spend almost as much time thinking about builds while I'm on the treadmill, or stuck in traffic, etc than I do playing the game. If the answer to "how should I build this toon" was "stay pure" 90% of the time, that would be sad.

I don't know if the capstone needs to be that powerful in relation to other classes.

The current PREs front load WAY too much power into a small "class" dip - but it largely isn't the class itself driving the power question.

The other factor are the ED abilities that do things like ignore DCs (tactics or spell), spell pen, etc. while simultaneously making those targets painful to chase ... meaning you're going to be more successful in something like Shiradi ... and more easily so ... where you can ignore DCs, spell pen, caster level.

[Antiguo]

If a Capstone were as powerful as 2 levels in any class, multiclassing would simply be a fluffy way to gimp your character and make you a laughing stock.

Why?

A Capstone is ever only a part of what the 2 last levels of a class give you. Those are what you ahve to compare in this discussion here.

So i the capstone alone is worth more, or even as good as, 2 levels of a possibel multiclass splash, and you always get (Capstone + power of last 2 levels) --> Multiclassing becomes a Newbie trap.

This is very bad for the game as what Newbie-traps are + push DDO into becoming one of those 84523 MMOs out there where you can play pure classes to your hearts desire.

Well, then the equation should be (Capstone + power of last 2 levels) = power of first 2 levels of any class.

This doesnt happend now.

[Cetus]

Ideally any capstone is at least as good as Evasion (if not better).

We understand some work may need to be done on individual abilities to achieve the proper balance.

If evasion was the only thing....

[~HellCloud]

For instance my main is an AA . And the core abilities just straight out suck ! Yes there neat with there utility but there's nothing in them that i can't make up for in there niche purpose already in game !!!

The only decent one that actually provides any power is the shadow arrows and there way to low of a percentage to be a stance , As a matter of fact if this is all pure builds get to combat 10k stars they need to rethink the extra shot chance enhancements altogether . While i like the idea of extra shot , It should be made into extra shots so you can randomly fire 4/3/2 arrows randomly at a % base . And actually up that percentage base alot to maybe 50 percent of the time to combat 10k builds , Make extra shots not work while manyshot is active case closed !!!!

The extra shot chance on the capstone would be nice if it was tweaked like i suggested to work for extra shots !

The master of imbuement ability is lame and provides no real bonuses !!!!! Bows have it the easiest when breaking dr by the way !!!

[~Pinel]

I have to disagree with this. Capstones should not be insanely powerful mega-abilities. What you're asking for is the equivalent of like 5-6 levels in another class, or a heroic moment ED ability. Capstones are there to be a nice bonus, not a top-tier ED heroic moment power that's always on.

pretty much this ^

[~Sigh_Lint]

Ideally any capstone is at least as good as Evasion (if not better).

We understand some work may need to be done on individual abilities to achieve the proper balance.

I agree with this thought, but I'm at a loss as to how you could possibly manage it. With the post MoTU changes the game has shifted rather distinctly in favor of more durable builds as opposed to massive overwhelming damage (combination of the DC casting "nerf" wail of banshee, circle of death still not working properly, giving everything and their uncle evasion, the elite mob hit point bloat, etc.)

And staying conceptually relevant, that is to say, providing cap stones that are different and have some thematic relation to the underlying class.

Stab in the dark:
Fighter Cap stone: +50 exceptional PRR
Ranger Cap stone: +10 exceptional Dodge
Sorceror Capstone: 25% elemental absorption with 5% con op like proc
Wizard Capstone: Force of Intellect, Int bonus applies to all saving throws

Granted they're off the top of my head, and I may be valuing evasion too highly, but even as over the top as these are, I'm not sure they're better than evasion.

[voodoogroves]

I agree with this thought, but I'm at a loss as to how you could possibly manage it. With the post MoTU changes the game has shifted rather distinctly in favor of more durable builds as opposed to massive overwhelming damage (combination of the DC casting "nerf" wail of banshee, circle of death still not working properly, giving everything and their uncle evasion, the elite mob hit point bloat, etc.)

And staying conceptually relevant, that is to say, providing cap stones that are different and have some thematic relation to the underlying class.

Stab in the dark:
Fighter Cap stone: +50 exceptional PRR
Ranger Cap stone: +10 exceptional Dodge
Sorceror Capstone: 25% elemental absorption with 5% con op like proc
Wizard Capstone: Force of Intellect, Int bonus applies to all saving throws

Granted they're off the top of my head, and I may be valuing evasion too highly, but even as over the top as these are, I'm not sure they're better than evasion.

Those are WAY more powerful than evasion.


The real issue is the "comparable to evasion" in light of the new PRE lines.

When we look at PREs, many of them have front-loaded and non-lock-out capabilities. We shouldn't look at out of whack potential PRE abilities when judging how good a splash is.
- We need to carefully consider where in the tree some abilities are - all tactics up front? Big extra damage up front? Bad ides.
- We need to be honest with ourselves and limit the scope of what someone can obtain. Being able to get the top tier abilities in one, and some lower level stuff in others is fine. Being able to get the super-powerful-mid-tier on multiple should be restricted, either mathematically or simply locked out.


Getting into a PRE can be easy - but you shouldn't be able to get the best stuff from multiple so readily.

[mikarddo]

Ideally any capstone is at least as good as Evasion (if not better).

We understand some work may need to be done on individual abilities to achieve the proper balance.

Wow, just wow. If you truly mean that then all the capstones need some very serious work.

Might I suggest considering making things like Divine Grace and Evasion provide slightly less in particular for a splash of just 2 levels? Both of those and likely some other abilities simply seem to add too much for just two levels. Heck, soon Divine Grace will be adding +25 to all saves to a serious CHA build.

[voodoogroves]

Divine grace isn't the issue.

We've got too many abilities in the enhancements and items that do things like raise caster level, etc.

Missing a core "class" tree hurts, as it makes you want to put core class capstones down a pigeonholed pipe. Ideally, classes stand on their own.

I think the Sorc needs a boost at higher levels JUST from a class perspective, regardless of PRE. I also think that I'd love to see AM / PM sorcs ... and we shouldn't ram-rod in a specific playstyle that mandates a class and build into those PRE trees end-state.

[TrinityTurtle]

I think the original post of this thread is a clear indicatin of the blurred lines between the concepts of Need and Want. And I see plenty of both pure and multiclassed toons out there, I play with a pretty even split of both every day. No shortage of either. So I don't think we need to change the capstones to tip the balance either way, personally.

[voodoogroves]

I think the original post of this thread is a clear indicatin of the blurred lines between the concepts of Need and Want. And I see plenty of both pure and multiclassed toons out there, I play with a pretty even split of both every day. No shortage of either. So I don't think we need to change the capstones to tip the balance either way, personally.

The enhancement update has the potential to wreck this a bit.

IF you can take up to 3 PREs and IF those PREs have readily accessible abilities that are not limited by character level, points in tree, etc. sufficiently then you've made the dip even stronger (essentially).

[Daemoneyes]

I think the original post of this thread is a clear indicatin of the blurred lines between the concepts of Need and Want. And I see plenty of both pure and multiclassed toons out there, I play with a pretty even split of both every day. No shortage of either. So I don't think we need to change the capstones to tip the balance either way, personally.

Not what i see.
Most pure are gimps/newbs who either have no clue or dont care about dominating content.
Which is fine for them but if you want power then staying pure is atm even as Wiz not really the best option.
(DC casting beyond eH is broken anyway so why even bother when you can have evasion and full umd & trapping)

Capstones need to be so good that it can compensate for the loss of 2feats&evasion or evasion&umd&traps and more.
Especially now that it opens you also the first tiers of new trees, given that this often makes now splashing more then 2 lvl interesting but often 2lvl is all you have as wiggle room anyway if you want your base class to stay viable.

Fazit, Capstone needs to be a HELL better then only evasion or it will again be something for newbs.

[SisAmethyst]

Maybe we should look from bottom up not from the level of the capstone down. Reverse the point of view and ask what common splashes exist and why one would splash it?

Right now players splash e.g. 2 level of Rogue which provide you not only evasion but as well a bunch of skill points among the ability to disarm traps. On the other side 2 levels of fighter or monk may give you a feat and more HP. In other words it is far more then just evasion that you get. Some classes like clerics are tight on skill points and aim for those and the evasion would just be a bonus. Paladins are tight on feats and may aim for the monk. However with a lot of enhancements front loaded this gap even increase. The point is that multi-classing should be on the same level as staying pure, so the last two levels should be equal in power as the first two in an other class. As like the last 6 should be as rewarding as the first 6.

Previously you had usually the breaks at 2, 6, 12 and 18 but with the new enhancements I have seen so far the main power seem to be concentrated in the lower part, leading to spread your points more flat and wide. I don't want to suggest to remove the front loading but what others already mentioned is that we miss somehow in most trees a stable solid core trunk (the red line of the prestige class). That certain capstones seems to be lackluster compared to what a splash may offer is then just coincidence...

[Ironclans_evil_twin]

A pure class gets capstone AS WELL AS 2 levels in that class.... not just a capstone. IMO some here are being a bit self serving ignoring that fact. loss of 9th level spells and spell slots, loss of casting DC's, loss of spell Penn, loss of feats in some cases, loss of sneak attack, special class perks such as unarmed damage dice, and movement speed etc. Buff time, spell damage dice... oh spell point pool might smaller...

Best instant death? Pure capstone casters.
Best trapper DC and trap saves? Pure INT mechanic
Best Assassin? Pure 20 rogue.
Hardest hitting Pali? Capstone Pali
Best crowd control casting DC's and spell penn? Pure capstone.
Best swiss army knifes? Multiclasses

You want to add outlandishly powerful super powers to capstones? Wisdom ADDED to strength for damage? Say hello to the new king of melee DPS the capstone cleric, with a racial melee DPS PrE. and to think you didn't need to do anything creative or clever, or compromise healing or crowd control or Implosion DC's or even spend a moment considering options or costs... you just picked a path and followed it; and your Cleric is brokenly uber and then adds, those other two OP abilities just for giggles. That'll show all those smug multiclassers right?

The reality is that people multiclass because its more involving and fun for some of us, it keeps DDO interesting. Generally speaking most multiclasses add utility and flexibility at the expense of mastery. Evasion while very useful is not nearly as powerful as some of you think. And the power that is there requires an opportunity cost in addition to two levels, you need a great reflex save, which in some cases means taking a feat, or putting build points into what would be a dump stat. Spreading your build points thinner. This is in addition to losing a capstone, and what the 2 levels of pure class would have given. SP, saves BAB, extra HP's, unarmed damage die step, movement speed, spell slots. class perks, feats.

[~Sigh_Lint]

A pure class gets capstone AS WELL AS 2 levels in that class.... not just a capstone. IMO some here are being a bit self serving ignoring that fact. loss of 9th level spells and spell slots, loss of casting DC's, loss of spell Penn, loss of feats in some cases, loss of sneak attack, special class perks such as unarmed damage dice, and movement speed etc. Buff time, spell damage dice... oh spell point pool might smaller...

Best instant death? Pure capstone casters.
Best trapper DC and trap saves? Pure INT mechanic
Best Assassin? Pure 20 rogue.
Hardest hitting Pali? Capstone Pali
Best crowd control casting DC's and spell penn? Pure capstone.
Best swiss army knifes? Multiclasses

You want to add outlandishly powerful super powers to capstones? Wisdom ADDED to strength for damage? Say hello to the new king of melee DPS the capstone cleric, with a racial melee DPS PrE. and to think you didn't need to do anything creative or clever, or compromise healing or crowd control or Implosion DC's or even spend a moment considering options or costs... you just picked a path and followed it; and your Cleric is brokenly uber and then adds, those other two OP abilities just for giggles. That'll show all those smug multiclassers right?

The reality is that people multiclass because its more involving and fun for some of us, it keeps DDO interesting. Generally speaking most multiclasses add utility and flexibility at the expense of mastery. Evasion while very useful is not nearly as powerful as some of you think. And the power that is there requires an opportunity cost in addition to two levels, you need a great reflex save, which in some cases means taking a feat, or putting build points into what would be a dump stat. Spreading your build points thinner. This is in addition to losing a capstone, and what the 2 levels of pure class would have given. SP, saves BAB, extra HP's, unarmed damage die step, movement speed, spell slots. class perks, feats.

But that's part of the rub, isn't it? A lot of the benefits of the last 2 levels in a class are in the overkill range.
1. Best instant death? Sure a 20 wiz taps out, but then again, a pure 20 sorc should still be able to use finger and wail (if it's ever fixed). A lich form pale master has 3 DC's on a Sorc. The capstone accounts for 1. In my limited experience as a sorc, finger and wail (back when it worked) worked just fine. And that was on first lifers (not talking about the epic stuff since that's all Destinies anyway).

2. Best trapper? sure an Int maxed mechanic is the best trapper, but there again, other rogue builds seem to do just fine (again at least up into Epic content).

3. Hardest Hitting Pali might not be a capstone Pali. I'm thinking 2 rogue with haste boost? And a fair amount of that advantage, making things like eSoS bypass DR can be gained by running with Artificiers. Even if I concede the point a max 3d6 proc on some targets really doesn't excite me. Particularly when Palis have massive saves which makes the evasion splash more profitable. Is a potential 3d6 proc on some targets the equivalent of the increased procs from haste boost and sneak attack damage? I could be wrong, but I think it's a least arguable.

4. Ok no argument the best Assassin is a pure Assassin. But that still may not be true of Arcane Archers.

5. Best CC etc. See #1. If pure Sorcs can do these things, then a splashed Wizard can still do them better.

6. No argument here.

Two key things here. 1.) An 18/2 split is generally at least 90% as effective as a pure class capstone in those areas of that class's expertise.

2.) The splash usually provides very significant increases in survivability, utility, and often both.

As to your other arguments about build sacrifices:

1. Build points: Yes I entirely agree, but then again with the costing structure how much are you really missing? -1 or -2 to a prime stat? Additionally, the game has to be somewhat reasonable for the newbs with 28 point builds.

2. Spell points: no argument, though I think the max loss on an 18/2 split is only around 300 spell points.

3. Saves: depends on the splash. A pally/monk splash usually is a net gain in saves. Other splashes may shore up a weak save at the expense of an overly developed one.

4. Unarmed die step. True, generally this is only a .5(w) or at most a 1(w) for an 8 level splash.

5. Movement speed: only applicable to monks who outpace every thing anyway. Granted I love my monk speed, but you could take a 12 level splash and still be 10% faster than "normal" characters.

6. Spell slots. true, the question is only the opportunity cost of the slot lost. for 18/2 wizard is evasion and skills worth a 7th, 8th and 9th slots? (with wail broken, this is less of an opportunity cost than in the past).

7. Class perks? Possibly, or perhaps this is just that a multiclass spends less in a racial tree. Have to ponder that one.

8. Feats? Again depends on the splash. Fighter, Monk, and Wizard will all provide more feats, as will Ranger on occasion.

Sure there are sacrifices, but in general, I think the benefits of the splash on an even somewhat thought out multiclass far outweigh the capstones as is and as currently proposed.

[lostgunman]

/agree wholeheartedly. ANY capstone should be worth 2 class levels.

[Aashrym]

But that's part of the rub, isn't it? A lot of the benefits of the last 2 levels in a class are in the overkill range.
1. Best instant death? Sure a 20 wiz taps out, but then again, a pure 20 sorc should still be able to use finger and wail (if it's ever fixed). A lich form pale master has 3 DC's on a Sorc. The capstone accounts for 1. In my limited experience as a sorc, finger and wail (back when it worked) worked just fine. And that was on first lifers (not talking about the epic stuff since that's all Destinies anyway).

The capstone no longer accounts for 1 DC above other casters. Most casters were giving +2 casters stat in the capstone, including sorcs and clerics. Sorcs were even given +1 evo DC as something that was requested several times to help with DC's. The difference now is in the lich form with +4 INT and +1 necro available in tier 5 in PM tree, plus the ability to add +1 necro from school mastery in AM tree.

The capstones have equal DC bonuses between the wiz and sorc. The trees buffed wiz DC's more for some reason and given the direction of evo/conj for sorcs I'm not sure why. Lich form is pretty strong compared to other level 18 core row innates.

2. Best trapper? sure an Int maxed mechanic is the best trapper, but there again, other rogue builds seem to do just fine (again at least up into Epic content).

I don't really consider trapper a role, just an added benefit.

What is nice about mechanics is they are faster at dealing with traps, and that's a nice little benefit. I still see them as more a ranged rogue option and they have some alchemicals to play with.

Thunderstone is a tier 1 enhancement that has more base damage and a higher base DC save on a high level rogue than an 8th level wizard spell like Greater Shout for some reason and we still don't see improvements to that spell. That's kind of a head shaker there.

3. Hardest Hitting Pali might not be a capstone Pali. I'm thinking 2 rogue with haste boost? And a fair amount of that advantage, making things like eSoS bypass DR can be gained by running with Artificiers. Even if I concede the point a max 3d6 proc on some targets really doesn't excite me. Particularly when Palis have massive saves which makes the evasion splash more profitable. Is a potential 3d6 proc on some targets the equivalent of the increased procs from haste boost and sneak attack damage? I could be wrong, but I think it's a least arguable.

I'm thinking there are a lot of level splits that beat the capstone.

4. Ok no argument the best Assassin is a pure Assassin. But that still may not be true of Arcane Archers.

Pure wizard using FoD is pretty good for assassinating. I think it's possible to get assassinate DC's a little higher than wizard necro DC's but I'm not sure the INT investment is really worth it and wizard have the ability to do it at much longer range with more options to debuff the save. Wizards make great snipers.

5. Best CC etc. See #1. If pure Sorcs can do these things, then a splashed Wizard can still do them better.

That's the direct the devs are taking more than anything. Comparing evocation DC's or conjuration DC's and the sorc can compare better. And still be behind. Wizards are clearly meant to have DC advantages. Lich form plus improved shrouding seems to be a rather large benefit, however, as a +2 DC's to all schools ability.

6. No argument here.

Another loss is in damage dice. This is not necessarily a big loss these days for other reasons but it can still have some impact. On that same note, the DC's are a lot less relevant in certain epic caster builds too.

Two key things here. 1.) An 18/2 split is generally at least 90% as effective as a pure class capstone in those areas of that class's expertise.

2.) The splash usually provides very significant increases in survivability, utility, and often both.

As to your other arguments about build sacrifices:

1. Build points: Yes I entirely agree, but then again with the costing structure how much are you really missing? -1 or -2 to a prime stat? Additionally, the game has to be somewhat reasonable for the newbs with 28 point builds.

2. Spell points: no argument, though I think the max loss on an 18/2 split is only around 300 spell points.

3. Saves: depends on the splash. A pally/monk splash usually is a net gain in saves. Other splashes may shore up a weak save at the expense of an overly developed one.

4. Unarmed die step. True, generally this is only a .5(w) or at most a 1(w) for an 8 level splash.

5. Movement speed: only applicable to monks who outpace every thing anyway. Granted I love my monk speed, but you could take a 12 level splash and still be 10% faster than "normal" characters.

6. Spell slots. true, the question is only the opportunity cost of the slot lost. for 18/2 wizard is evasion and skills worth a 7th, 8th and 9th slots? (with wail broken, this is less of an opportunity cost than in the past).

7. Class perks? Possibly, or perhaps this is just that a multiclass spends less in a racial tree. Have to ponder that one.

8. Feats? Again depends on the splash. Fighter, Monk, and Wizard will all provide more feats, as will Ranger on occasion.

Sure there are sacrifices, but in general, I think the benefits of the splash on an even somewhat thought out multiclass far outweigh the capstones as is and as currently proposed.

Splashes and multiclasses are far more effective than pure classes in a lot of ways. That's why they are so popular. Outside of spell casting most classes are front loaded with abilities, and even with spell casting max caster levels impact going higher.

On this new system the capstones are not very strong compared to what adding 1 or 2 additional classes brings with those front loaded abilities plus adding additional trees. It really is easy to look at adding a 3rd tree where none exists; that's a missing opportunity cost we should have. It's also really easy to drop 1 of the 2 trees a class does have when they don't complement each other well and we can add 2 trees that do.

Those additional tree enhancement plus the class splash are way beyond what the capstones and higher class levels contain without an appropriate opportunity cost in the lost access to existing enhancements.

Players don't need to go overboard on what multi-classing is giving up, because it's not a lot at this point, but I also don't think we should get too carried away with more benefits to pure classing in general and just look at some particularly poor level 18 and capstone abilities because I hope to eventually see 3 trees with good enhancements in each.