Acrobat response

[SealedInSong]

Thanks a lot for transcribing this Nibel.

Acrobat Tree

Core:
(1) Acrobat: Use dex to hit with staffs.
It's nice that this comes so early in the tree unlike some of the other alternative stat to-hit/damage enhancements, but...what if I don't want to use dexterity to hit?

What if I really, really prefer strength?

How does this work in conjunction with power attack, and tacticals? Am I to just assume then that I now have to raise dexterity against my will, have zero change to land stunning blow and a moderate trip DC that's nowhere near even the worst equipped fighters/barbarians/paladins?

(3) Stick Fighting (2 AP): Use dex to damage with staffs.
Again, what? I really don't want to use dexterity for my damage.

I want to pump strength since it's far easier with Dreadnought, Rage, Madstone, Titan's Grip, etc. and get decent stunning blow DC, 1.5 damage power attack mod, and qualify for overwhelming critical. Why am I being forced to take dex to-hit/damage?

(6) Tumbler (2 AP): You can tumble through enemies.
Cost is too high for an ability I wouldn't even necessarily take if I could avoid it, which I can't. I'll also probably get this for free from twisting Unearthly Reactions to get my dodge to cap.

(12) Kip Up (2 AP): Immunity to knockdown and slippery surfaces.
(18) Cartwheel Charge (2 AP): After tumbling you gain a +2 morale bonus to Str and Dex for 6 seconds.
This ability is worse than useless--it is counterproductive!

A morale bonus? I'll already have that from a rage potion or much higher from primal scream. It essentially nets you +1 damage from the dex bonus that's actually a net loss of HUNDREDS damage or so from not hitting your target and tumbling away from them in all likelihood, spending time in a useless animation when you can be actually whacking them to death.

READ: This ability is a TRAP.

Tumbling is problematic, as anyone that's actually used it knows that the lag between initiating and ending the tumble is equivalent to pausing and activating two action boosts with no way to use a tactical to interrupt the pause.

It suffers from terrible desync and targeting errors.

Coupled with the tumble animation's duration, you're losing a lot more DPS from not just standing still and auto attacking. This morale boost should last longer, as by the time you're done tumbling you will probably get a maximum of three hits in.

This ability is very weak and probably more of a trap than a boon.

(20) Followthrough (2 AP): Passive +2 Str/Dex. After tumbling, for 6 seconds your staff attacks hit two targets per swing instead of one. On vorpal, your target is knocked down.
This is a better buff than cartwheel charge but still suffers the massive problems of the tumble animation itself.

As Oradafu pointed out, if the vorpal knockdown effect only persists for the six second buff after tumble (read: 1-2 seconds of actual buff if it's initiated when the tumble starts rather than when it ends), then this ability is close to useless. You'd have to sacrifice an incredible amount of DPS rolling around on the floor while your party looks upon you with contempt, waiting for a vorpal trip that will likely never come that lasts for a pitiful amount of time.

Monks and assassins can instakill with their melee enhancements. The trip vorpal should apply to any and all acrobat staff attacks.

Tier 1:

Staff Training (2 AP): +1 hit/damage with staffs.
Acrobatic (1 AP): +1/2/3 to Balance, Jump and Tumble. +5%/10%/15% staff attack speed.
This is too low in the tree. Giving up the acrobat's signature alacrity to every henshin or what have you seems like a poor idea for maintaining acrobat identity. Tier it higher, and make it 6/12/18%. On live, we were *supposed* to get +20% from acroII but it was bugged to give a lower benefit.

So now they're just keeping it as is instead of coding it to give the bonus that was originally intended and putting it so low in the acrobat tree that literally anyone can purchase it?

Charming (1 AP): +1/2/3 Bluff, Diplomacy, Haggle and Intimidate
Sly Flourish (1 AP): Melee Attack. +0.5/1/1.5 [W] damage with a +1/2/3 crit threat range, and reduces your threat by 100/200/300. On sneak: Intelligent target also gains -1 to balance, Reflex and Will for 20 seconds (stacks 5 times). Cooldown: 12 secs.
Nice.

Faster Sneaking (1 AP): +20%/35%/50% sneaking speed.

Tier 2:

Staff Training (2 AP): Requires Staff Training I. +1 to hit and +2 damage with staffs.
Trip Focus (1 AP): +1/2/3 to Trip DC
This enhancement is 100% garbage if acrobats don't get dex as their tactical modifier as their strength will never be high enough to consistently land trips beyond epic normal.

Subtlety (1 AP): -20%/30%/40% threat generation (non-cumulative with other Subtlety enhancements)
Quick Strike (2 AP): Melee Quarterstaff Attack. +1/2/3[W] damage. You gain a 5%/15%/25% morale bonus to doublestrike for 10 seconds. Cooldown: 18/15/12 secs.
Very nice and great to have on rotation in addition to Lightning Mace in Dreadnought.

Haste Boost (2 AP): +10%/20%/30% attack speed for 20 seconds.

Tier 3:

Staff Training (2 AP): Requires Staff Training II. +1 hit/damage with staffs.
Improved Glancing Blows (1 AP): 2%/4%/6% more chances to proc secondary weapon effects on glancing blows.
Cost improved from live, so this is good.

Shadow Dodge (1 AP): Toggle: +1/2/3 Dodge and Dex, -10%/20%/30% Fortification.
Wait, my own fortification goes down? That seems needlessly punitive.

This should be more like taking 10/20/30 seconds off the uncanny dodge timer, not some nerf to the live 4% dodge coupled with an extra nerf bat of decreased fortification. This is crazy.

Sweeping Strikes (2 AP): Requires Quick Strike at the same rank. Melee Quarterstaff Trip Attack. +1/2/3[W] damage to all nearby enemies and trips them (Balance DC 10 + half rogue + Dex). Cooldown: 30/25/20 secs.
Okay, so this uses a dex mod for the tactical, but what about our regular and improved trip attempts? They're useless except for this one?

Strength or Dexterity (2 AP): +1 to choosen stat.

Tier 4:

Staff Training (2 AP): Requires Staff Training III. +1 to hit and +2 damage with staffs.
Improved Defensive Roll (1 AP): Requires Defensive Roll. Defensive Roll now triggers at 30%/40%/50% or below health, and reduces damage to 40%/30%/20% when successful.
This is actually kind of interesting makes me consider this as a feat.

No Mercy (1 AP): You deal 10%/20%/30% more damage to helpless opponents.
Nice, except how can my stuns ever land if I have poor strength and high dexterity?

Staff Lunge (2 AP): Requires Sweeping Strikes at same rank. Melee Quarterstaff attack: +2/3/4[W] damage as you dive through enemies in a line. Cooldown: 30/25/20 secs.
Neat, but I am already forced to purchase the enhancement to tumble through them and this sounds like yet another mobility option that merely reduces my DPS.

Tier 5:

Staff Specializtion (2 AP): +1 competence bonus to crit threat range and multiplier with staffs.
Well, here's a silver lining.

Vault (2 AP): Wings. Requires a staff equipped. Cooldown: 15 seconds
Everyone is clamoring for a vaulting animation, and while I agree that would be cool, I'd much prefer this whole dexterity focus to be addressed.

What I'm perceiving acrobats lost:

• The promise of actual 20% staff alacrity
• 4d6 SA capstone
• Dexterity mod to sneak attack damage
• Enhancement to run/walk speed--where did that go?
• Showtime clicky. Mostly useless only the dex portion stacked and it consumed a haste boost, which is 99% more useful
• A whopping 4% dodge, unless you count a -30% fortification debuff and +3% dodge a net gain. It's not.
• THE OBVIOUS SYNERGY BETWEEN STRENGTH-ACROBATS AND TACTICAL DCs, OVERWHELMING CRITICAL QUALIFICATION, EASY-TO-ACQUIRE STRENGTH BOOSTS, LEGENDARY DREADNOUGHT, AND POWER ATTACK THF 1.5(DAMAGE).

That's huge. That's terrible. That's really crappy. Shame on you, devs. The only way to rectify this is to craft an enhancement that allows dex to be used if it's higher than strength for to-hit and damage, the use of dex for 1.5 damage with power attack, and the use of dex for all tactical abilities--particularly stunning blow and trip. The cost of the dex to-hit/damage that people shouldn't be forced to purchase anyway should be cut in half or autogranted.

They gained:

• Vault, which is neat
• No Mercy (except almost no ability to induce helplessness themselves)
• Snazzier defensive roll (though I suspect most won't train this)
• Ephemeral post-tumble buffs (which are functionally useless since you're reducing your DPS to pause forever and tumble, reposition relative to enemy, and take advantage of the nanosecond of buff that you get from tumbling)

I was also expecting for some kind of mechanic that reduced the cooldown of uncanny dodge.

[oradafu]

A pretty good write up. I'm still sifting through the stuff on Acrobats, so I've been piecemealing my opinions.

As much as I want the Dex attack and damage for Acrobats, I understand completely if STR based acrobats are cheesed with gaining nothing from the first few core abilities. Since "Dexterity mod to sneak attack damage" was lost in the new enhancements, it should probably be placed in the Stick Fighting, where Dex damage is added to staves. This way STR based Acrobats will at least gain a small perk in a core abilitiy that they have no use for.

I've also suggested that a +1 Sneak Attack die should be added into two places: the Acrobat capstone and in the final tier of Staff Training.

I agree that Dex mods for tactical attacks should be placed somewhere in the enhancements.

I agree that attaching a super short boost (6 seconds) to a laggy tumble is a bad design. Even worse is if the capstone only allows a Vorpal trip after the tumble. For a capstone, I'd expect that the Vorpal trip would be a constant, similar to Lethality in the Assassin core abilities (at a lower level even!)

I'm less concerned about an animation for Vault than others. I'd rather Vault be similar to the Draconic Flyby Attack. All mobs that I vault through should have to save to prevent a knockdown. A little bit of damage would be nice too, but a knockdown save is a must for Vault.

As I said, I'm still picking my way through the enhancements, so I'm sure I have more complaints as I look at it more and more.

[redspecter23]

I think there are some synergies here. No mercy combo's extremely well with the adrenaline fueled knockdown ability to provide a very nice damage boost. It speeds up what is probably a very fast kill anyway due to rogue sneak attack.

I agree that they seem to be missing an ability that allows you to apply your dex modifier to standard trip attacks and improved trip. I think that one little addition could really spice up the cc aspects here.

Sweeping Strikes is potentially extremely powerful if I'm reading it correctly. A cleave + trip combo? 20 second cooldown is long, but not too long. I need to run the numbers on it, but hoping that with enough investment, you could be looking at a viable EE cc option here.

Staff Lunge. I'd have to actually play around with it. It could be an amazing AOE type attack that combines some redundancy with the AOE trip Sweeping Strikes. It depends on how it's implemented.

I agree that it's unfortunate that going dex based inhibits your ability to pick up the almost melee mandatory overwhelming crit. The cleaves could still easily be taken if wanted. I see this as more of an issue with overwhelming crit than a dex based problem. There is no dex based equivalent to OC that compares. I think a dex based version would allow for some options

Critical Precision
Requires:
Dex 23
Improved Critical: any

Your critical threat range is increased by 2.

I'd also add

Deft Tactician
Requires:
Dex 13

You may use your dex modifier for combat tactics if it's higher than your strength.

This fills in the problematic issue with trips. I'd prefer it as an enhancement in the acrobat tree, but it's worth the feat cost on classes that would use it and opens up the option for rangers potentially as well.

[SealedInSong]

I agree that attaching a super short boost (6 seconds) to a laggy tumble is a bad design. Even worse is if the capstone only allows a Vorpal trip after the tumble. For a capstone, I'd expect that the Vorpal trip would be a constant, similar to Lethality in the Assassin core abilities (at a lower level even!)

Thank you for pointing that out. If it does indeed only last for 6 seconds, it's just never going to happen. It'll be like when I get Indulgence of the Mad Queen--cool for its duration, then just bittersweet when it ends, knowing that you can never count on it.

As if assassins need a leg up on mechanics and acrobats. FAR FROM IT, devs. Sheesh.

Monks and assassins can instakill with their melee enhancements. And you won't even grant acrobats a permanent trip vorpal effect? This had better be changed.

I'm less concerned about an animation for Vault than others. I'd rather Vault be similar to the Draconic Flyby Attack. All mobs that I vault through should have to save to prevent a knockdown. A little bit of damage would be nice too, but a knockdown save is a must for Vault.

Thematically I'd actually prefer for Vault to just have a shorter cooldown and/or no "charge" count that replenishes, and just a cooldown, to distinguish it from Leap of Faith/Air Dance (charges, SP cost), Abundant Step (ki cost), Flyby Attack (long cooldown).

It makes sense to me that since our acrobats are just using their sticks to jump high, they should be able to do it more often.

I wouldn't say no to knockdown/damage but it makes less sense to me and appeals less than if they simply had the best abundant step ability (no cost, more usage).

[SealedInSong]

I think there are some synergies here. No mercy combo's extremely well with the adrenaline fueled knockdown ability to provide a very nice damage boost. It speeds up what is probably a very fast kill anyway due to rogue sneak attack.

Wait, knockdown =/= helpless, correct?

Anyway, I didn't say there weren't any synergies. There are enough that it doesn't make this tree garbage like the cleric trees.

I'm just saying the dexterity portion and the tumbling effects are ignoring some basic facts of the game, and they are silly, poorly-designed, and constricting character diversity.

[SealedInSong]

Critical Precision
Requires:
Dex 23
Improved Critical: any

Your critical threat range is increased by 2.

I'd also add

Deft Tactician
Requires:
Dex 13

You may use your dex modifier for combat tactics if it's higher than your strength.

But we're dealing with the devs here. They can barely own up to 60% versions of their promises and 1% of player feedback on existing mechanics, let alone consider new mechanics suggested by players.

[redspecter23]

Wait, knockdown =/= helpless, correct?

Anyway, I didn't say there weren't any synergies. There are enough that it doesn't make this tree garbage like the cleric trees.

I'm just saying the dexterity portion and the tumbling effects are ignoring some basic facts of the game, and they are silly, poorly-designed, and constricting character diversity.

I agree completely on the tumble silliness. It might have worked better as an adrenaline type attack, where you tumble then your next attack is at some sort of bonus. It would allow for combination attacks and more potential synergy. Sure you would lose dps by tumbling then attacking, but with the right combination, it would be worth it. As it's designed, it lacks imagination and forces you to use a useless mechanic for small gains. The better option is to make the useless mechanic (tumble) not worthless.

[voodoogroves]

It would be nice if the trip used either str or dex AFTER you take that ability. Dex here is another railroad like stalwart and Shields.

[SealedInSong]

I agree completely on the tumble silliness. It might have worked better as an adrenaline type attack, where you tumble then your next attack is at some sort of bonus. It would allow for combination attacks and more potential synergy. Sure you would lose dps by tumbling then attacking, but with the right combination, it would be worth it. As it's designed, it lacks imagination and forces you to use a useless mechanic for small gains. The better option is to make the useless mechanic (tumble) not worthless.

If they don't touch the tumble mechanic itself, they'd need to make the buff last somewhere on the order of 20+ seconds and/or give a boost that's about 4x its current amount.

[redspecter23]

If they don't touch the tumble mechanic itself, they'd need to make the buff last somewhere on the order of 20+ seconds and/or give a boost that's about 4x its current amount.

6 second buffs with a long/annoying trigger have to be amazing to be worth the effort. I'm looking at the arty machine gun here as an example of worth it for 6 seconds. Anything less that that is just not going to be used. I think the boost itself should be designed first, then assign a duration and cooldown to balance the ability. In this case it seems they decided on 6 second duration and locked themselves in first, then tried to design an ability with that limitation in addition to the tumble trigger. That's two huge limitations right off the start. Like I said, the 6 seconds following that better be amazing.

What they really need to do is apply some bonuses to the tumble itself. It's wasted time right now. For starters the "tumbler" ability should apply a bluff effect as you tumble through the mobs, possibly even applying a debuff to their saves to allow your tactics to hit better after the fact. It's very weak as it's currently implemented. Apply a few debuffs and it's suddenly at least moderately useful and allows you to setup a followup attack.

Perhaps if Staff Lunge also counted as a tumble attack for purposes of proccing the abilities, it could have again, provided some synergy and combination potential. This and the change posted above would lead to some very active acrobat combat situations. Cleaning up the tumble animation and making it a bit less clumsy to use overall would be the finishing touch necessary. Because tumbling is now a part of combat, it needs it's own button and should be removed from the tie in with blocking.

[SealedInSong]

It would be nice if the trip used either str or dex AFTER you take that ability. Dex here is another railroad like stalwart and Shields.

too true.

[FranOhmsford]

Addressing the Dex/Str issue.

I agree totally that Acrobats SHOULD get Dex mod to Trip/Stun/Sunder

BUT

I've always found it incredibly off-putting that the best Acrobats in DDO are H-Orcs!

Really this Pre should have Synergy with Elves/Halflings!

Anything the Devs can do to reduce the benefits Str gives in this game can only be a good thing to my mind.

The 13 Str requirement on PA, 15 Str requirement on Two Handed Fighting and 17 Str requirements on Imp/Greater Two handed Fighting should be more than enough to emphasize the High-Str factor of Acrobatics in real life.
We shouldn't HAVE to MAX Str on a Rogue {or on a Monk for that matter}!
P.S. Precision should be a viable alternative to Power Attack {as in fact should Combat Expertise}.

/Signed to the Devs adding Dex Mod to Trip/Stun/Sunder and other tactical abilities for Rogue Acrobats!
/NOT SIGNED to any more Benefits for High Str Rogues!

[Corzak]

The two things that I've missed the most is the free dodge bonus and the 10% run speed bonus. Especially the run speed bonus.

[SealedInSong]

The two things that I've missed the most is the free dodge bonus and the 10% run speed bonus. Especially the run speed bonus.

We lost both the innate speed bonus as well as the showtime clicky for it. What gives? I'll take increased run speed any day of the week over some crappy tumbling skills that lower my DPS.

[Alintalkin]

Thanks a lot for transcribing this Nibel.

(20) Followthrough (2 AP): Passive +2 Str/Dex. After tumbling, for 6 seconds your staff attacks hit two targets per swing instead of one. On vorpal, your target is knocked down.
This is a better buff than cartwheel charge but still suffers the massive problems of the tumble animation itself.

As Oradafu pointed out, if the vorpal knockdown effect only persists for the six second buff after tumble (read: 1-2 seconds of actual buff if it's initiated when the tumble starts rather than when it ends), then this ability is close to useless. You'd have to sacrifice an incredible amount of DPS rolling around on the floor while your party looks upon you with contempt, waiting for a vorpal trip that will likely never come that lasts for a pitiful amount of time.

Monks and assassins can instakill with their melee enhancements. The trip vorpal should apply to any and all acrobat staff attacks.

While I am not defending the capstone,it needs to be improved, I will say that it starts at the end of the tumble, so you do get the full 6 seconds, not 1-2 seconds

I think that if they want to keep the thematic tumbling it should be

On Vorpal hit with a quaterstaff: Knockdown (aka as a constant or a toggle, not related to tumble)
On tumble: For twelve seconds your attacks hit two enemies instead of one.

Edit: Also I agree we need our movement speed back

[bhgiant]

While I am not defending the capstone,it needs to be improved, I will say that it starts at the end of the tumble, so you do get the full 6 seconds, not 1-2 seconds

I think that if they want to keep the thematic tumbling it should be

On Vorpal hit with a quaterstaff: Knockdown (aka as a constant or a toggle, not related to tumble)
On tumble: For twelve seconds your attacks hit two enemies instead of one.

Edit: Also I agree we need our movement speed back

Absolutely agree. Take out the tumble mechanic entirely I say. It is thematically silly (you roll on the ground for a while and then can hit faster afterwards??) and incredibly awkward. I tested it for a good 15 minutes in the dojo. You inevitably roll too far and have to spend time getting back to your opponent, and this was against the kobolds standing still. It results in poor sloppy gameplay and a loss of overall DPS.

I say add 10% movement speed to Tumbler (you can pass through enemies when tumbling) and take out Cartwheel Charge entirely and replace it with another 10% increase in movement speed and a small dodge bonus. Call it "Agile" or something similar.

If the devs REALLY want to keep the tumble mechanic, make Cartwheel Charge similar to the Dragonic Incarnation "Flyby Attack" where it will knock opponents down on tumble based on a Dex DC save. Limit it to one tumble every 6 seconds.

[Arlathen]

Wait, have a I missed a trick here - Do you always use Dex on Quarterstaffs with the Thief-Acrobat PrE once you take the Core abilities to reach things like Immunity to Slippery surfaces?..

I thought that it would work like Str/Dex weapons, where it would simply use the highest score you have in preference of the other. With tactics all needing Strength for the DC, I was still planning building a Strength based Thief-Acrobat when these enhancements go live.

PSA: Quarterstaff Alacrity (Competence? Unknown...) still stacks with Monk Air Stance (Enhancement bonus) and they both stack with Haste Boost. Tested on Lammania

PSA: Ultimate Wind stance Thief-Acrobat is the shizz. You heard it here first :P

[Truga]

(1) Acrobat: Use dex to hit with staffs.
It's nice that this comes so early in the tree unlike some of the other alternative stat to-hit/damage enhancements, but...what if I don't want to use dexterity to hit?

What if I really, really prefer strength?

How does this work in conjunction with power attack, and tacticals? Am I to just assume then that I now have to raise dexterity against my will, have zero change to land stunning blow and a moderate trip DC that's nowhere near even the worst equipped fighters/barbarians/paladins?

(3) Stick Fighting (2 AP): Use dex to damage with staffs.
Again, what? I really don't want to use dexterity for my damage.

I want to pump strength since it's far easier with Dreadnought, Rage, Madstone, Titan's Grip, etc. and get decent stunning blow DC, 1.5 damage power attack mod, and qualify for overwhelming critical. Why am I being forced to take dex to-hit/damage?

Use strength, nothing is prohibiting you from doing so. It'll still use STR if it's higher...

[PrimalConcreteSledge]

Monks and assassins can instakill with their melee enhancements. And you won't even grant acrobats a permanent trip vorpal effect? This had better be changed.

First of don't compare acrobats to assassins. Assassinate is not something you just take for a few ap and it works.

Secondly i'd be very careful about giving anyone a no-save ability. Look where we ended up with shiradi.

I think sweeping strike is a great ability, if it will be usefull in ee content, there is nothing to complain about.

[eachna_gislin]

Absolutely agree. Take out the tumble mechanic entirely I say. It is thematically silly (you roll on the ground for a while and then can hit faster afterwards??) and incredibly awkward. I tested it for a good 15 minutes in the dojo. You inevitably roll too far and have to spend time getting back to your opponent, and this was against the kobolds standing still. It results in poor sloppy gameplay and a loss of overall DPS.

I say add 10% movement speed to Tumbler (you can pass through enemies when tumbling) and take out Cartwheel Charge entirely and replace it with another 10% increase in movement speed and a small dodge bonus. Call it "Agile" or something similar.

If the devs REALLY want to keep the tumble mechanic, make Cartwheel Charge similar to the Dragonic Incarnation "Flyby Attack" where it will knock opponents down on tumble based on a Dex DC save. Limit it to one tumble every 6 seconds.

The Devs should remind themselves that tumbling is a skill available to all classes, and it provides very useful and effective bonuses as you invest in ranks of it.

Here is the tumble skill in the wiki:
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Tumble_Skill

Investing in tumble should do a number of things including...

Acting as a sort of feather fall for the reduced/no damage when falling
increasing dodge bonuses by level of tumbling skill.
You should get an a small but persistent bonus to balance and jump skills once you have 5 ranks of tumble.
allowing no knock down like the Acrobat Kip Up effect (Free Stand)

All of these effects should apply NO MATTER WHAT CLASS YOU ARE. It should be scaled based on how many tumble ranks you have.

Right now the tumble skill gains you NOTHING in game. 1 rank of tumble allows you to use a broken animation that lowers your damage. I've heard there's another (useless) effect at higher levels (40+? 50+?). The devs want to fix systems to make it harder to decide where to spend skill points? Why don't they finally code up tumble. It's clear that the rolling on the ground animation was simply a place-holder until they dedicated future effort to it and it's been rotting ever since.

The rolling on the ground effect animation in the game should only be used to get past enemies without provoking attacks of opportunity. And I can't tell if those exist in the game coding or not. But, someone using that part of tumbling skill should have precise control over where they tumble and how far they roll and the animation does not allow that.

After fixing tumbling, Acrobats should be given a thorough going over to re-balace their enhancements based on what tumbling gives them already and making sure they're still a unique and balanced prestige.