How (imo) the new system should have been

[Ziindarax]

why don't you give me an example of how "powerful" your concerned build will be then?

you must list the class split, the enhancements that will be taken which will make the class 'way more powerful' and your reasoning behind why you think it works that way

then i'll tell you how i think your way of thinking is wrong

While you're at it, if it's a caster class, take notes and compare and contrast the spell power of your build (or a similar one) on live, and the spell power of your build on Lamannia with the current iteration of the Alpha Pass. Furthermore, I challenge you to take notes of the average raw damage of your spells on live, and on Lamannia currently.

Edit: I am not interested in seeing the melee stuff; Melee's are the ones who benefit the most from this pass. Looking at all the juicy buffs one can get, I have determined that it is possible for a pure monk to get at least 10d6 in raw damage dice BEFORE strength modifier, power attack, damage-augmenting gear, etc (note, this assumes that a warforged monk could use weapon attachment on handwraps). With all the buffs, that number could actually be higher. How high? So high that you're doing hundreds of points of damage per punch (with the right buffs), and that's not considering the 50% boost from helplessness (and the 30% boost from Sense weakness being twisted in), nor seekers, and the criticals. So how am I getting this? Here's the math - 3.5(d6) from remaining a pure monk, .5W from Weapon Attachment (I am assuming it works with wraps), Epic Elite Adamantine Knuckles have a secret effect of 3.5W, and dance of flowers maxed out from Grandmaster's tree gives an additional 1.5w. So far, that's 3.5 +.5, which = 4. 4 +3.5W from EE Knuckles makes that 7.5W. Dance of Flowers adds another 1.5W, which makes the total so far 9W. If you're in fire stance, and have the fire enhancement from the GM tree, you're adding another .75W to make that total 9.75W. Add in Deadly Weapons, and you get 10.75W. If the Reinforced Fists property from various items stacks with all this, you're looking at 11.75W. Blessings of Onatar adds .25, which tops it out at a whopping 12W. Also, I forgot to add Improved Power attack, which adds another .5W, making it 12.5W. This is all before Damage boosts, Yugo pots, Primal Scream, Strength Modifiers, or Power attack.

Earlier today, I played with a 12 rogue, something drunk (druid + monk levels), and he was able to get the damage die of his Sireth up to a total 6d10, and was striking at a frightening speed (four hits, and the giants in Epic Gianthold wilderness were dead). Before Damage boosts, Strength modifiers, Power attack, etc, he is already doing 6-60 points of damage per hit. Deadly Weapons/Shillelegh cranks that number up to 7d10, and Weapon Attachment (if you're Warforged) makes it 7.5d10. Oh, and that's not considering what could be cranked up further if the monk trees happen to include anything which enhances the strength of quarterstaves or other monk weapons.

[Jay203]

The current ranger builds allow TWF to get +4 damage on TWFing they can also get FE damage you now have a ranger with +11 damage vs specific creatures you then add in Kensei enhancements do you see where I'm going?

Cheers

Sorry about the multiple responses I hit a key and didn't realize I had posted I thought I had lost it.

no, i don't see where you're going with that

using the current enhancement list we have available right now
in order to get the +4 damage to twf, you'll be spending 8 AP on that
another 8 AP if you want to get up to +4 more damage from Kensei
if you want the +3 FE bonus damage on the deepwood line, you'll need to spend at least 12 APs
that's 28 APs for the damage bonuses you claim so far which is more than 1/4 of what's available, that's not including the other enhancements and other requirements you have to satisfy before you can take those enhancements
saying there are no limit what-so-ever is just plain silly, the most basic of all limitation we have is the availability of APs
then it's the soft class level requirements of 1 lvl of the class per tier in tree
then there's the hard class limit for the core enhancements
after that i even proposed having some of the enhancements requiring one to have specific core enhancements, which requires x-amount of APs spent in that specific tree along with specific amount of class levels

but no, you didn't get all that, all you saw was "omg, they're able to cherry pick only the useful enhancements! there're no limits!!! OMGOMG!"

/facepalm

on a side note, i can't believe you're worried about rangers doing more damage to Favored enemies... like they're suppose to... ha~

[Jay203]

While you're at it, if it's a caster class, take notes and compare and contrast the spell power of your build (or a similar one) on live, and the spell power of your build on Lamannia with the current iteration of the Alpha Pass. Furthermore, I challenge you to take notes of the average raw damage of your spells on live, and on Lamannia currently.

Edit: I am not interested in seeing the melee stuff; Melee's are the ones who benefit the most from this pass. Looking at all the juicy buffs one can get, I have determined that it is possible for a pure monk to get at least 10d6 in raw damage dice BEFORE strength modifier, power attack, damage-augmenting gear, etc (note, this assumes that a warforged monk could use weapon attachment on handwraps). With all the buffs, that number could actually be higher. How high? So high that you're doing hundreds of points of damage per punch, and that's not considering the 50% boost from helplessness (and the 30% boost from Sense weakness being twisted in), nor seekers, and the criticals. So how am I getting this? Here's the math - 3.5(d6) from remaining a pure monk, .5W from Weapon Attachment (I am assuming it works with wraps), Epic Elite Adamantine Knuckles have a secret effect of 3.5W, and dance of flowers maxed out from Grandmaster's tree gives an additional 1.5w. So far, that's 3.5 +.5, which = 4. 4 +3.5W from EE Knuckles makes that 7.5W. Dance of Flowers adds another 1.5W, which makes the total so far 9W. If you're in fire stance, and have the fire enhancement from the GM tree, you're adding another .75W to make that total 9.75W. Add in Deadly Weapons, and you get 10.75W. If the Reinforced Fists property from various items stacks with all this, you're looking at 11.75W. Blessings of Onatar adds .25, which tops it out at a whopping 12W. Also, I forgot to add Improved Power attack, which adds another .5W, making it 12.5W. This is all before Damage boosts, Yugo pots, Primal Scream, Strength Modifiers, or Power attack.

Earlier today, I played with a 12 rogue, something drunk (druid + monk levels), and he was able to get the damage die of his Sireth up to a total 6d10, and was striking at a frightening speed (four hits, and the giants in Epic Gianthold wilderness were dead). Before Damage boosts, Strength modifiers, Power attack, etc, he is already doing 6-60 points of damage per hit. Deadly Weapons/Shillelegh cranks that number up to 7d10, and Weapon Attachment (if you're Warforged) makes it 7.5d10. Oh, and that's not considering what could be cranked up further if the monk trees happen to include anything which enhances the strength of quarterstaves or other monk weapons.

like i said, the effects of enhancements themselves are a separate discussion altogether

i remember seeing a dev saying similar enhancements from different tree would not stack back in the official enhancements thread. then again, what will be available to us as enhancements still needs to be looked at. the basic system of how the entire purchase system would work is what i'm more focused on in this thread.

as for pumping the damage up, that's really not the problem of the enhancement system
that's the problem with EDs and the equipments
wasn't hard to get decently high X[W]
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=415030

[Ziindarax]

like i said, the effects of enhancements themselves are a separate discussion altogether

i remember seeing a dev saying similar enhancements from different tree would not stack back in the official enhancements thread. then again, what will be available to us as enhancements still needs to be looked at. the basic system of how the entire purchase system would work is what i'm more focused on in this thread.

as for pumping the damage up, that's really not the problem of the enhancement system
that's the problem with EDs and the equipments
wasn't hard to get decently high X[W]
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=415030

Math-fail on my part - reinforced fists grants .5w, not 1w! x.X

[kingfisher]

Seriously? I didn't want to have to scroll through the huge list of enhancements now I'd have to scroll through pages of enhancements so instead of a list you give me a book....

hi, this is a dnd game, built on the dnd pen and paper game. we use pens and paper. you know, to write stuff down. makes everything easier. srsly.

You instituted little gating and were hazy on a possible gating system, which doesn't seem like a good idea if they allowed stacking. I suppose you could have the same gating as in the current enhancement system, but personally I like the new trees and their flexibility much better. The old system I have haste boost I from rogue on my ranger the new system I can get haste boost III, and I wouldn't even need the rogue levels. They spread good enhancements around to all classes so cherry picking enhancements from multi-classing isn't necessary as most trees have good choices, but it doesn't hurt multi-classes either as it allows unique cross over of abilities.

no. they buried good enh in ill-fitting trees so you have to take stuff you dont like to get to the good ones. thats rigid, not flexible. what flexibility are you speaking of?

and your ranger with the shiny new haste boost, now cant get any sprint boost. at all. a CORE ranger enh, and one of the most handy things to have.

and as far as it not hurting mc's, well you can add right? 3 limitations (live) vs 6 limitations (alpha) is obviously more restrictive, if you can add. then you figure in that a MC on live can take any low level enh they qualify for where an MC on alpha has to pick 3 enh trees just like they were a pure class. these are major nerfs to MC'ing. whatever new and shiny enh are on alpha dont matter when you consider the additional restriction that their idiotic new system drags in with it.

its mostly common sense. a little math.

[Elaril]

I like this a lot. It is much more palatable than the lama alpha.

[Jay203]

soooo, it's been a while since i kept up with the enhancement pass progress
any changes noteworthy??

[Jay203]

ok, just checked out the most recent changes
making it so we can get up to 6 class trees is a start i suppose

still would prefer to have what i proposed though, please make multi-classing as fun to play post-pass as pre-pass!