How (imo) the new system should have been

[Jay203]

starting with this:


each of the 3 tree slot will be reserverved for a single class. as we can only have 3 different classes on a character at any one point, this works out perfectly
the selections at the bottom will allow you to choose among the PrEs available to the class
in the example, Class 1 Enhancement Tree is taken up by the Fighter class. The list from the dropdown will include Stalwart Defender, Kensei, and whatever the other one that's suppose to come out
this works the same way for the other 2 trees
so if i have a character with fighter/ranger/rogue, my Class 1 Enhancement Tree could be Fighter, Class 2 being Ranger, and Class 3 being Rogue tree

the enhancements in the tree section will require you to have spent certain amount of APs thus far, does not matter which tree you have spent the APs in
the enhancements in the CORE section (bottom) requires you to have invested a specific amount of APs into the tree associated with that core.
so if i want to take the 3rd Core enhancement from the Kensei PrE, i'll have to have spent 10 points in the Kensei tree as well as having 6 levels of fighters.

now, the thing is, when you have spent the points into one PrE, you are now able to spwap over to another PrE to spend APs into that tree

so if i have spent 23 points into Kensei like this:

notice how it shows 23 AP spent in two different places? once in tree (for the sake of Core enhancement requirement) and once at the bottom near the Reset all trees (for the sake of Tree enhancement requirements)

now i can swap the PrE from the Fighter window over to Stalwart Defender, like so:

note that the AP spent in the Stalwart tree says "0 AP Spent", while the "AP spent total" at the bottom remains at 23. This means that what you spent in the other tree still still valid, all you did when you swap over to the stalwart tree was changing the list you're looking at.

What this does is basically making the Tree Enhancements more like the "general" class enhancements that we have right now. if you have the class requirement as well as the AP spent requirements, you can take them.

and since there are concerns about multiclassers cherrypicking all the extremely powerful enhancements with some 6/6/8 split. What if i say that some of the enhancements from the tree will require specific CORE enhancements?
AA Arrow of Slaying will require you to have the lvl 18 Shadow Arrows
Battle Mechanic's Weapon Attachment will require you to have the lvl 18 Infuse Armor

this way of gating will still limit the crossers' access to the more powerful enhancements, while opening up their choices for the lesser enhancements without severing their flexibility from the class investments

also, this obviously means removing the ******** 3 PrE tree limit

[Steven]

I have to say I like this better than the current system there advertising. It gives more of the current feel for multi-classing but keeps in play the tree effect there trying to go to. That and allowing the AP spent to be used across the racial/class tree would be welcome.

+1

[rdasca]

It will never happen, it makes to much sense.

[kingfisher]

+1 awesome layout. this would be sooooooooooooo much better than the drivel they are posting on lam. blows my mind how obtuse these bozo's are that they wont even consider what so many are asking for.

[whereispowderedsilve]

Devs? Chime in on this please? Anybody? Wow that is awesome Jay! +100000!

Great work! Come people get behind this idea! :P! ! Cheers!

[SilkofDrasnia]

Nice this is what we should have, I hope the devs (and their bosses) have the decency to look at this and at least consider it.

[Jay203]

lol, from the reactions thus far i take it it was clear and not confusing??

[SilkofDrasnia]

lol, from the reactions thus far i take it it was clear and not confusing??

Was pretty clear to me.

[Jay203]

btw, this is only my view on how the system should have worked

it has nothing to do with what enhancements are available at each tier and at what cost

that's a separate thing altogether

[Synthetic]

Seriously? I didn't want to have to scroll through the huge list of enhancements now I'd have to scroll through pages of enhancements so instead of a list you give me a book....

You instituted little gating and were hazy on a possible gating system, which doesn't seem like a good idea if they allowed stacking. I suppose you could have the same gating as in the current enhancement system, but personally I like the new trees and their flexibility much better. The old system I have haste boost I from rogue on my ranger the new system I can get haste boost III, and I wouldn't even need the rogue levels. They spread good enhancements around to all classes so cherry picking enhancements from multi-classing isn't necessary as most trees have good choices, but it doesn't hurt multi-classes either as it allows unique cross over of abilities.

Limitations help drive creativity. Your proposed system seems to push cookie cutter multi-class power builds.

Come back with a better idea on how you're gating and limiting the page flipping.

Cheers

[Cernunan]

THIS is exactly what the system should be, and after a year of work and feedback, honestly this is exactly what I was expecting it to be.

Strange the detractor says its too complicated (?), but that is the thing about DDO's current system compared to other games, you can either take advantage of the rich, subtle nuances which go into character creation, or you can build to totally ignore them.

Jay's system would allow for this to continue, you can use the depth or completely ignore and go cookie cutter.
The current Lam build only allows for cookie cutter limited builds. That is something I am finding very disheartening about the future of the game.

[Jay203]

[QUOTE=Synthetic;4991565]Seriously? I didn't want to have to scroll through the huge list of enhancements now I'd have to scroll through pages of enhancements so instead of a list you give me a book....[quote]
the biggest flaw of the UI for the current enhancement system in live is how much of a pain it is to go through things.
the new UI separated them all into their own "trees", so it's only a matter of going to the correct tree to pick up the enhancement you want.

at least the "BOOK" is a lot more organized and easier to access

You instituted little gating and were hazy on a possible gating system, which doesn't seem like a good idea if they allowed stacking. I suppose you could have the same gating as in the current enhancement system, but personally I like the new trees and their flexibility much better. The old system I have haste boost I from rogue on my ranger the new system I can get haste boost III, and I wouldn't even need the rogue levels. They spread good enhancements around to all classes so cherry picking enhancements from multi-classing isn't necessary as most trees have good choices, but it doesn't hurt multi-classes either as it allows unique cross over of abilities.

the only necessary gating should have been character level, prerequisites, and amount of AP spent. any further gating is only benefiting the pure class while punishing the multiclassers. and i never went in depth into what requirements there should be for the enhancements. all i've done so far is lifting the ridiculous mechanic of 3 tree limit as well as the unnecessarily limiting access.

Limitations help drive creativity. Your proposed system seems to push cookie cutter multi-class power builds.

limitation only helps drive creativity when it's at an appropriate limit. and my proposed system does not, in any way, push for cookie cutter builds more than the current system. afterall, cookie cutter builds will ALWAYS exist regardless of what system you implement. however, what system you implement could make or break the game's character build system.

Come back with a better idea on how you're gating and limiting the page flipping.

Cheers

there's already enough 'gating' and limitations in place for the system
if you do not like the page flipping, you can always use the proposed system like it's currently implemented. stick with your three trees, other builders like myself would like a broader access for our character builds so we can be more creative.

if you make the system any more limiting than this, you have to make the enhancements themselves to have no limit in order to avoid being too limiting. so, no.

[SilkofDrasnia]

THIS is exactly what the system should be, and after a year of work and feedback, honestly this is exactly what I was expecting it to be.

Strange the detractor says its too complicated (?), but that is the thing about DDO's current system compared to other games, you can either take advantage of the rich, subtle nuances which go into character creation, or you can build to totally ignore them.

Jay's system would allow for this to continue, you can use the depth or completely ignore and go cookie cutter.
The current Lam build only allows for cookie cutter limited builds. That is something I am finding very disheartening about the future of the game.

Aye agreed. After alpha and beta testing Neverwinter Online I was disheartened with the lack of customization and that pretty much insured I was going to stay with DDO (like usual as most other mmo's bore me after a very short while and I always come back to this one) If they go through with his I don't know if this would still be the case.

I always come back to DDO for one reason and they are trying to nerf that reason. So next small break I take why would I come back, might as well play Neverwinter.

[Scraap]

I like it, though on the gating: I will again note that I find the benefits-for-points-spent-in-tree mechanic combined with chained pre-reqs sufficient motivation to stick to heavy investment in a few trees for most builds, so I don't particularly think they need to tack on extra hard limits there. (Though that would mean they'd have to add a few amps for the non-casters to encourage them to focus in a given tree, and make the trade-offs sting a bit.)

[Davelfus]

yeah, 1 tree per class makes so much more sense... totally preffer your system over the current one... but going to add some thoughts...

honestly would rather have all enhancements for a class in one tree (played path of exile which have a way bigger "tree" and it was not hard to plan on it imo, can check a online version here)

then add on the right side a "prestige column" (imagine this part exactly like the stat enhancements on EDs) where we need to choose between one of the avaiable prestiges for that class, maybe even increase the number of tiers.


no need to create a bazillion enhancements just to fill trees, they are just repeating a lot of stuff (everybody and their mothers have a leap-like ability now).

Have anyone stop to wonder how much more work will they have to add a new class? hell after all this time artificers still only had one rank in their prestige... and all of a sudden, when they release a class it will have 2 or 3 finished trees? lol... they need to make a reality check right now

[BFD20001]

Looks **** good. I would suggest adding a class/PrE Core ability for lvl15 as well as making ALL the Core abilities autogrants at the appropriate AP marks. Cheers!

[Jay203]

yeah, 1 tree per class makes so much more sense... totally preffer your system over the current one... but going to add some thoughts...

honestly would rather have all enhancements for a class in one tree (played path of exile which have a way bigger "tree" and it was not hard to plan on it imo, can check a online version here)

then add on the right side a "prestige column" (imagine this part exactly like the stat enhancements on EDs) where we need to choose between one of the avaiable prestiges for that class, maybe even increase the number of tiers.


no need to create a bazillion enhancements just to fill trees, they are just repeating a lot of stuff (everybody and their mothers have a leap-like ability now).

Have anyone stop to wonder how much more work will they have to add a new class? hell after all this time artificers still only had one rank in their prestige... and all of a sudden, when they release a class it will have 2 or 3 finished trees? lol... they need to make a reality check right now

biggest problem with putting all the enhancements in a single 'tree' is how clogged up it'll get

not to mention should turbine decides to add additional PrEs or enhancements, it'll be a lot of rework to move everything around

Looks **** good. I would suggest adding a class/PrE Core ability for lvl15 as well as making ALL the Core abilities autogrants at the appropriate AP marks. Cheers!

the way i see it, actually taking the Core enhancements is like taking the PrE on live right now
filling up the tree to fulfill the AP spent in tree requirements for the Core enhancements is like taking the pre-req enhancements for the PrE

[Jay203]

I read your whole proposal I simply disagree that there are any limitations on cherry picking abilities. I.e. a maxed build melee will be way more powerful then what's achievable in what the devs proposed as will a maxed build archer/caster etc. You didn't give me an actual response that flushed out somethings to help balance so I can't take you seriously.

Cheers

why don't you give me an example of how "powerful" your concerned build will be then?

you must list the class split, the enhancements that will be taken which will make the class 'way more powerful' and your reasoning behind why you think it works that way

then i'll tell you how i think your way of thinking is wrong

[Ziindarax]

starting with this:


each of the 3 tree slot will be reserverved for a single class. as we can only have 3 different classes on a character at any one point, this works out perfectly
the selections at the bottom will allow you to choose among the PrEs available to the class
in the example, Class 1 Enhancement Tree is taken up by the Fighter class. The list from the dropdown will include Stalwart Defender, Kensei, and whatever the other one that's suppose to come out
this works the same way for the other 2 trees
so if i have a character with fighter/ranger/rogue, my Class 1 Enhancement Tree could be Fighter, Class 2 being Ranger, and Class 3 being Rogue tree

the enhancements in the tree section will require you to have spent certain amount of APs thus far, does not matter which tree you have spent the APs in
the enhancements in the CORE section (bottom) requires you to have invested a specific amount of APs into the tree associated with that core.
so if i want to take the 3rd Core enhancement from the Kensei PrE, i'll have to have spent 10 points in the Kensei tree as well as having 6 levels of fighters.

now, the thing is, when you have spent the points into one PrE, you are now able to spwap over to another PrE to spend APs into that tree

so if i have spent 23 points into Kensei like this:

notice how it shows 23 AP spent in two different places? once in tree (for the sake of Core enhancement requirement) and once at the bottom near the Reset all trees (for the sake of Tree enhancement requirements)

now i can swap the PrE from the Fighter window over to Stalwart Defender, like so:

note that the AP spent in the Stalwart tree says "0 AP Spent", while the "AP spent total" at the bottom remains at 23. This means that what you spent in the other tree still still valid, all you did when you swap over to the stalwart tree was changing the list you're looking at.

What this does is basically making the Tree Enhancements more like the "general" class enhancements that we have right now. if you have the class requirement as well as the AP spent requirements, you can take them.

and since there are concerns about multiclassers cherrypicking all the extremely powerful enhancements with some 6/6/8 split. What if i say that some of the enhancements from the tree will require specific CORE enhancements?
AA Arrow of Slaying will require you to have the lvl 18 Shadow Arrows
Battle Mechanic's Weapon Attachment will require you to have the lvl 18 Infuse Armor

this way of gating will still limit the crossers' access to the more powerful enhancements, while opening up their choices for the lesser enhancements without severing their flexibility from the class investments

also, this obviously means removing the ******** 3 PrE tree limit

This, a thousand times this!! Granted, the enhancements in and of themselves still need improvement, this would be a more preferred system than what is currently on Alpha.

Furthermore, I am of the mind that the fifth rank that levels you up should be also grant an additional action point; so you'd be getting 5 AP's per level instead of 4, and it works out better for the akward "5-10-15-20-25-30" increments they're trying to use now. Basically, 20 more action points.

[Synthetic]

why don't you give me an example of how "powerful" your concerned build will be then?

you must list the class split, the enhancements that will be taken which will make the class 'way more powerful' and your reasoning behind why you think it works that way

then i'll tell you how i think your way of thinking is wrong

The current ranger builds allow TWF to get +4 damage on TWFing they can also get FE damage you now have a ranger with +11 damage vs specific creatures you then add in Kensei enhancements do you see where I'm going?

Cheers

Sorry about the multiple responses I hit a key and didn't realize I had posted I thought I had lost it.