The Official Rogue Enhancements Discussion Thread!

[Arnhelm]

Please disconnect Wand DC's from Scroll Mastery. I like to have a little extra oomph when casting Cure Critical and Heal scrolls, but see no need to waste AP's taking offensive wand DC bonuses.

[soloist12]

Please disconnect Wand DC's from Scroll Mastery. I like to have a little extra oomph when casting Cure Critical and Heal scrolls, but see no need to waste AP's taking offensive wand DC bonuses.

More importantly, axe the wand enhancement entirely.

[Cack]

No it does not.. just tested it..

Be nice to get a confirmation on wether this is a bug or not, meh.

[Dylvish]

I think one thing that you are ignoring is that INT isn't really needed for an Acrobat, so is a bit of a dumpstat for Acrobats. On the other hand, there's no stat requirement needed for the Kip Up perk and an Assassin or Mechanic can pick up the needed AP without dipping into the quarterstaff abilities.

This isn't to negate your point, since your point is true that dipping into other trees for their goodies. However, it is a bit disingenuous to say that an Acrobat will basically only be 1 DC behind an Assassin for Assassinate.

Not sure I fully agree with this. Ive played Assassin (ok, 2 of them), an Acrobat, and a Mechanic (that I stopped playing at 14, just not my style). I did not dump Int on any of them. Granted, I took a 2 less in Acrobat, and 2 pts higher on Mech, but I still kept it decent on all of them because its still a rogue, and I like my skills! Being a couple of points behind on Assassinate I understand, and don't really find game breaking either way, but as a dump stat? Not for me.

[ComicRelief]

As it stands right now, if I want to make a mechanic-rogue, I see no ultra compelling reason why I should make a pure build. Since an artificer can conjure bolts, my inclination is to splash 1 level of arty just to gain that ability. Granted, I would be limited to +1 bolts, but have you seen the drop rate for bolts in the game? At least I could then conjure 1,000 bolts at a time (which take up only ONE inventory slot, per 1,000) and not have to worry about running out of ammo (which has happened to me on numerous occasions).

Granted, even though the level 5 core enhancement of the mechanic is called "Master Alchemist", 'conjuring' has never been in the rogue domain, per se. But, with a high enough UMD, they could use all sorts of 'conjuring' scrolls so would it really be that far fetched that at higher levels they could figure out how to conjure bolts? I mean, go ahead and make it a tier 4 or teir 5 tree enhancement, or make it part of the level 4 or level 5 core enhancement abilities - that would at least give me more incentive to make a pure build.

Either that, or allow me to carry stacks of 1,000 non-conjured bolts in my inventory, outside of my quivers.

I know - unlikely, but I can dream.

[JarinDearly]

As it stands right now, if I want to make a mechanic-rogue, I see no ultra compelling reason why I should make a pure build. Since an artificer can conjure bolts, my inclination is to splash 1 level of arty just to gain that ability. Granted, I would be limited to +1 bolts, but have you seen the drop rate for bolts in the game? At least I could then conjure 1,000 bolts at a time (which take up only ONE inventory slot, per 1,000) and not have to worry about running out of ammo (which has happened to me on numerous occasions).

Granted, even though the level 5 core enhancement of the mechanic is called "Master Alchemist", 'conjuring' has never been in the rogue domain, per se. But, with a high enough UMD, they could use all sorts of 'conjuring' scrolls so would it really be that far fetched that at higher levels they could figure out how to conjure bolts? I mean, go ahead and make it a tier 4 or teir 5 tree enhancement, or make it part of the level 4 or level 5 core enhancement abilities - that would at least give me more incentive to make a pure build.

Either that, or allow me to carry stacks of 1,000 non-conjured bolts in my inventory, outside of my quivers.

I know - unlikely, but I can dream.

Ok, maybe this ties into something I've been thinking about that Soloist12 and Arhelm mentioned, too. For starters, the ammo thing would be easily fixed if Turbine would please, please, please go ahead and fix the Conjure Bolts scroll bug. While that forces one to carry a bunch of scrolls, the Mechanic Build is now geared towards an increased ability to make use of UMD effectively, and I for one wouldn't mind a half-elf Atri dilly being able to use the conjure bolts scrolls as well. To get more specific about the quote about, though, I'd have to say that Rogues are not arcane classes, and being able to have UMD as a class skill is one of the aspects that is supposed to be integral to the thief archetype. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't, but having a scroll or wand on hand to maybe try is part of being a rogue, apparently more specifically a Mechanic now. So, in disagreeing with the idea of Rogues having innate spell abilities, hopefully there's a solution available. If, you know, that 3, 4 year old bug with the C.B. scrolls could finally be fixed...

In addition to that, though, I do like how wracking a construct now also has some complimentary trap laying and grenade launching from the Alchemical world school of things. Nice to see the Alchemical no longer being the sole province of the Artificer.

That leads me to the next point, though, in that if there has to be a straight line requirement progression in the Mech tree, why can't Scroll Mastery be the first of the enhancements? The whole Wand heightening thing could be second (thus, third tier), though I'd prefer to make that even third in the line, above UMD, too. With the way the game gets played around here, Rogues still need a bit of help in the self-healing department, and as it stands right now, even Assassins and Acrobats will have to decide between spending 14 AP's in the Mechanic's tree to get the scrolls boost (and Skills boost) or fore-go the extra self-healing in hopes that each and every PUG they join has a patient healer or two to help them out. And then, gee, since they've already spent 14-some AP there, why not use 3 more and pull up the UMD. If the game were to use more offensive Enchantment wands, I'd appreciate the Wand Heightening option a little more, but then, only a small, small, teeny bit. So, yeah, please, whoever's reading this please get Wand Heightening out of the way of Scroll and Wand Mastery, maybe even the UMD enhancement, too. Pretty please?

[Arnhelm]

Ok, need to look more closely at what's happening before I bug it. Mentioning it here because I've been dealing with health issues and might forget to follow up if more important things, like my health, come along.

In Thief-Acrobat tree, points don't seem to be adding up correctly while being applied, then get adjusted when the tree is saved. Noticed this today a couple of times on Lama, even reset tree to make sure. Consistently getting 2 extra points added to the total spent in tree, then that's adjusted down when the tree is saved.

...and PLEASE disconnect Wand Mastery from Scroll Mastery.

[Thieves_Guild_Master]

Given that I have moaned about the state of Rogues for a fair while I have to say I quite like what is happening here.

Yes you need to play with all the trees (and can have some real fun with a Ranger splash) but I find that fits what I think about Thieves erm Rogues anyway.

But please, ditch those hopeless poisons.

[RealKorike]

Ok. After testing this weekend (moved my capped rogue over to Lama Friday), I'd say this is a good start. The interface itself is well done, and I think, easy to use.

Enhancement Choices: It was fairly easy to build an Assassin with Mechanic extras. This is actually a bonus over the old system. Toss in just a tiny bit of acrobat (4 pts spent there) for flavor and to get an enhancement I wanted, and this worked well. It worked well enough for me to skip the poisons (which I find useless in their current setup and did not see much if any improvement in the new method) and spend points in the racial tree to get more weapon bonus'. I did not notice stacking issues with any of the bonus' and initially, they all seem to work thru 3 dungeons and the outdoor area.
I do not know how well these will work with splashes as I don't play that way. From a pure rogue standpoint, this new system appears to work well.

I'll play with it more this week and see if I can find anything to mention regarding the COST of each. Initially, I'd say they are close to good. But that is just an initial observation.

To prevent any pre-conceptions, I've not read previous posts in this thread, so I apologize for any duplication of effort.

[Mandyb]

More importantly, axe the wand enhancement entirely.

completely agree I love my mechanic rogue but I don't think we need that there. Also where did cheat death go

[Candela90]

Well Im still waiting for scroll mastery to be fixed.
I mean the main advantage rogues have over others is evasion and their scroll healing and trap doing - in exchange their real dps is only while its sneak attack and they have lower survability - like hp, heal amp, ppr.
Dont take away one of our main advantages :/.

[Systern]

The core enhancements are just weird.

Take Mechanic for example. All the Pale Trappers, 18/2 rogue builds out there that wanted some trapping ability and will be looking for the Tier 1 bonuses to DD/OL must buy Core 1. That 1 AP that every "mechanic", or splash that wants trapping ability needs, the CORE enhancement of the class is..... Great Crossbow Proficiency? An Exotic Weapon so bad that even artificers with their Pay-to-Play crossbow-centric design won't touch. Really? That's Mandatory? My Pale Trapper, My Bard, any character that thinks it's a good trade off to splash 2 rogue for evasion and traps NEEDS Great Crossbow Proficiency? That's CORE? (You keep using that word...)

The basic core of this prestige tree; that every enhancement, core and branch grows from; is Great Crossbow Proficiency.


Huh?

[Lithic]

The wand DC enhancement is particularly annoying because it is so useless. Even with 3 wizard past lives and the enhancement maxed out the best DC offensive wand (Cure crit on undead, or PK on most others though its a dual save) would only be a DC of (10+spell level4 + 6 past lives + 3 enhancement) 23. Other than for nuking kobolds in waterworks (and only on normal or hard!), it's insultingly useless for a rogue.

If cost is the issue, then nix the wand DC enhancement and just make scroll mastery cost proportionately more. Or if there must be a prereq, make it a skill bonus with choices of Heal or Repair, at least that will get you a few more HP at a shrine. either of these would make me grumble less than having to take the wand DC enhancement.

[2pleasegimmie]

get rid of the crappy ass Tanglefoot from rogue mechanic
...

also, disconnect wand DC, wand mastery, and UMD

Actually, all of those 10 DC abilities suck. They are resisted every time on epic normal for my Fighter/rogue (16/4). The 14 DC ones seem to work better.

I absolutely agree with your other suggestions. Prerequisiting wands boost as they have in so many trees is really stupid, and a huge waste of AP - that's a general complaint throughout this "enhancement pass", though - having to spend in "junk" abilities to get what you want/need.

[soloist12]

Actually, all of those 10 DC abilities suck. They are resisted every time on epic normal for my Fighter/rogue (16/4). The 14 DC ones seem to work better.

I absolutely agree with your other suggestions. Prerequisiting wands boost as they have in so many trees is really stupid, and a huge waste of AP - that's a general complaint throughout this "enhancement pass", though - having to spend in "junk" abilities to get what you want/need.

They will see a lot less people with scroll mastery, it's a solid waste of points going up there. Unfortunately this will impact self-healing a bit, as APs are quite valuable now and people will hesitate to spend them "over there".

I'm not sure how wand dc mastery is still an enhancement - if they don't know how useless it really is, then maybe it's the same dev in charge of the expansion's loot as well.

You have giants with saves in the 60-70 range, where a completely DC spec'd wizard has difficulty, how is a DC 14 wand going to do anything - Like REALLY?

Lawl.

[Trowa88]

Don't know why they can't make it an easier pill to swallow, maybe +1 caster level on wands and scrolls only per rank, not game breaking (and give artis a superior bonus ofc) but it'd add a bit of oomph to heal scrolls and make things like tenser's a bit more viable duration wise.

Has anyone figured out the numbers for bleed them out? I've tried it a few times but can't seem to figure out the damage die for it, or if it's even worth the points.

[vengfarga]

Hmm,
Lotsa people complaining about the Mech stuff. And 70% seems to be that you can't shallow(ish) splash Rog anymore on an Arti or Wiz and take all the best bits of Mech. Well ... good.
I've had one end game Rog Mech or another available for the last 4 1/2 years. I've lost count of the number of times a fellow pugger has asked "why aren't you just playing an arti?".
Even worse, you join a group as a Rog Mech "what? you're a rogue and not an assassin? AND not halfling? GIMP!!!"
What has been interesting for me over the last few months has been EE GH. Suddenly, some groups want the traps in Cabal & others neutralised and the bonus loot... lootable.
So my gimp 'why-are-you-not-an-arti-or-assassin' Mech has found a home.
Most of the 'DOOooOOooM'tm here seems to be that it's gonna get harder to splash a coupla levels on a Wiz or half a dozen on an Arti and still be the equal of a Mech at their class speciality. To me that's just better balance.
Now, I don't actually like a lot of the new Mech stuff. But I will defend absolutely their right to have it!

[Candela90]

Hmm,
Lotsa people complaining about the Mech stuff. And 70% seems to be that you can't shallow(ish) splash Rog anymore on an Arti or Wiz and take all the best bits of Mech. Well ... good.

I agree its good.
But most ppl complain about scroll mastery - I mean I love these enhancements. Im a pure rogue and I cant wait till they hit - theyre lovely and to me the best ones I saw in alpha - no OP but reasonal changes, making things usable in EE with effort and good gear.
I love the skills that gives you + to DC while being sneaked.

BUT - while I agree with you that trees are mostly well done, and its good that ppl cant splash 2lvls of rogue and take out the best - I dont like the fact that I on pure rogue cant get scroll mastery without sacrificing a lot dps and taking trashy skills. This is not good.
If u devs want to make it rogue only - then good. Move it to tier 1 with pre-req to be e.g. min 6 lvls of rogue. Because Not only it is a little high - taking some wand useless things is not fun. I can live with having to put 10 points into mechanic tree - I will use it on DD/Search/Open Lock faster doing and + to skills. But forcing us to put in this wandy thing... :P Bery funny. We laughed. Now give us real option .


I find rogue the best done because its the only class that right now Id love to take 90% of enhancements and cant decide what to take or what to sacrifice Its good.
On my fvs on other hand I love AoV tree but has no real other choice.
On my monk even worse - I just dont like most of these so I ended up taking whatever.

[bloodnose13]

i very much like the new elements of all rogue trees (as in comparison to current live one), one thing i dont realy like and seems out of place is shadow dagger from assasin tree, it seems like its a shadowdancer destiny thing and not a regular rogue thing, especialy that it seems mostly magical, what i would like to see instead of it is a, ranged assasinate, that requires a thrown dagger in hand, with much longer cooldown than regular assasinate, so its not overused, but usefull whne there is some hard to reach archer or caster that needs to be gone.

[Jay203]

I agree its good.
But most ppl complain about scroll mastery - I mean I love these enhancements. Im a pure rogue and I cant wait till they hit - theyre lovely and to me the best ones I saw in alpha - no OP but reasonal changes, making things usable in EE with effort and good gear.
I love the skills that gives you + to DC while being sneaked.

BUT - while I agree with you that trees are mostly well done, and its good that ppl cant splash 2lvls of rogue and take out the best - I dont like the fact that I on pure rogue cant get scroll mastery without sacrificing a lot dps and taking trashy skills. This is not good.
If u devs want to make it rogue only - then good. Move it to tier 1 with pre-req to be e.g. min 6 lvls of rogue. Because Not only it is a little high - taking some wand useless things is not fun. I can live with having to put 10 points into mechanic tree - I will use it on DD/Search/Open Lock faster doing and + to skills. But forcing us to put in this wandy thing... :P Bery funny. We laughed. Now give us real option .


I find rogue the best done because its the only class that right now Id love to take 90% of enhancements and cant decide what to take or what to sacrifice Its good.
On my fvs on other hand I love AoV tree but has no real other choice.
On my monk even worse - I just dont like most of these so I ended up taking whatever.

making int mod to xbow damage obtained at lvl 12 for a mech while both assassin and acrobat can get theirs WAY EARLIER is really uncalled for

ps. bring back repair construct
make that ability worth using rather than just tossing it out (it's lazy practice)