The Official Rogue Enhancements Discussion Thread!

[~HajutzeBG]

(posting in here because the build is mainly a rogue one)
I dropped the game an year ago (and my max lv is 18 sooo I didn't play it a lot back then TBH). So just asking. I know the EnhPass is probably coming in 2014, doesn't hurt to theorycraft on builds you know xD and it's pretty fun to do it ...

Given the current effects of the enhancements is something among the lines of (look below, short summary) worth it ?

12 rogue, 6 monk, 2 paladin, Human, dex based
I wanted to make a shuriken character who can fight with melee and do stuff (you know .. traps) and has a bit (no idea what is required on the lv20+ content) of survivability.

Human - 1 extra feat, +1 skill.
Paladin - obvious - the CHA to saves
Monk - 6 monk gives the 10k stars and 2 feats, the Ninja Spy line (Ninja training should give dex to dmg for shurikens, there are a couple enhancements, sneak attack goodies, Deadly exploits and shadow double look nice) AND the Shintao line with the defensive stance which as far as I can tell is a God bless for 2H characters (50 PRR and 5% dodge chance, I think while meleeing I can live with the extra threat gen)
Rogue - 12 rogue gives well the traps goodies, the Thief Acrobat looks REALLY nice - with all those clickies I think I wont need cleave and great cleave, not to mention one of those has the potential to knock down trash mobs, +15% attack speed with staves, some to-hit and damage with staves, immunity to most knock-downs and slippery stuff AND improved defensive roll.

Feats:
Rogue - Defensive Roll
Monk - Dodge (to unlock the dodge enh lines in both rogue and monk), 10k stars
General - Quickdraw, PointBlank Shot, Rapid Shot, Shuriken Expertise

Those are the feats I really need for the Shuriken part of the build, I have a lot of feat space left (1 monk, 1 human, 3 general). I was thinking of getting up to Great Cleave but with all the clickies it might be unneeded (and it opens the STR points needed to invest for them + 3 feats).

Might as well take Resilence or Precision but I'm not really sure how many stances I can use ... As far as I can tell the Defensive Strikes is a defensive one so I can use it with String of the Ninja (weapon stance) and I have left a combat stance and an offensive stance ? Anyway if I can use Resilence with Defensive Strikes .. why not ? +4 Reflex save = +4% chance to trigger the Defensive Roll.

With all that space I might as well take Toughness and Improved Critical, Power Critical (with a weapon focus). Not really sure it'll need the THF feat-lines.

=====================================
In summary the build will have
- Traps (d'oh xD)
- A decent ranged damage with the shurikens (I hope)
- Should be able to deal some damage with melee as well
- Like 20%+ dodge ? (3% from Dodge, 6% from monk levels, 3% shadow dodge, 3% acrobatic, 3% or so from an item, +5% defensive strikes ... sooo 23% dodge I'm sure it can go higher without mobility and spring attack)
- Some AC both from dex, wis and the enhancements on the way
- 50 PRR
- Not really sure how much but should have a killer reflex save (let's say 50 for the sake of the next line) (both from CHA and being heavy-DEX build)
- 50% chance to reduce the melee damage to 20% when below 50% hp.

Sooo with all that the char shouldn't like ... die from 1-2 blows xD. I hate the lack of self-healing but with the required 6 lvs of monk (for 10k stars) I can't go with artificer sooo what ... 11 levels of wizard for the reconstruct =/ ? Kind of locks down the options.

[~Cisko]

For me, the whole point of doing all these changing is not just to update, its also to make other builds and classes more viable than what everybody does, yes, im talking about Assasin. Let say, the knockdown clickies from acrobat are really going to compete with the assasinates? As for me, i will still be playing acrobats, but please, give us all enough reason to really use staves other than look cool and an abundant step at top tier (which should cost just 1 AP and not 2 in my opinion, since its already expensive enough due being in Top tier).

Ive been playing a sort of dual weilding acrobat for years, and i always wanted most of the changes u have implemented on acrobat. But there is a little catch. If i was to take the most advantage i want from my pure rogue, there is no real reason to take all those new shinies you've worked so hard to implement, because without any doubt the best way to go is assasin, because as assasin i will still be able to be taking Kip Up along with Assasinate, if i spend action points wisely... which will be even easier to do if you consider your next move of making core ability enhancements cost 0 AP (which is great idea, thank you so much for that)...

Anyways...

My thoughts on Acrobats:
(Good things first! )

Acrobatic: i love it but its on tier one... and i see theres like too lil room to separate it in tiers... my idea is to only make the next points spent in it requiring certain amount of AP spent in the tree to simulate the alacrity bonus being aplied at lvl 6, 12 and 18 like it should be.... OR just remove the alacrity bonus from it and place it in the core section... please? (5% to be granted along with "Stick Fighting" at 5 AP spent; 10% along with "Kip up"; and the 15% at 40 points spent along with Vault in CORE section ... oh, and place a 20% in the capstone along with that <3 )

Sly Flourish: looks good, but its not really worth it. Pure acrobat wouldnt take it cus AP are required higher in the tree, while an assasin will take it because its nice to take along with the necesary to reach haste boost.

Quick Strike: AMAZING! But if you were to encourage people to weild staves i would suggest you to increase the time this buffs last in a 10/15/20 secs progression ( but please dont touch the double strike progression? 25% at 3rd AP spent is good as it is)

Trip Focus: thank you . But its not worth it, unless you make it a +2/+4/+6 intead of how it is at the moment.

Sweeping Strikes: YES! thank you! but... like i said aboce, please, make it full rogue level DC... you know, people spend more time playing high level content than low level, so you would like us to keep using the skills you worked so hard to create and implement even at end game content, or else, we might not even use it in the mid level content (a lvl 12 dex rogue would have a 25 DC at most with that which would nt land on anything, specially hard or elite runs)

Shadow Dodge: I love the idea. But theres something i dont like. The dodge bonus should be higher and the Fortification penalty is too high to be usable. Please changethis and make a Dodge bonus of 5/10/15%, the dex bonus... i wish it was higher, like a +1/+3/+5 (c'mon! how many ways there is to increase Dexterity compared to Strenght ) , and the Fortification penalty leave it at a-20% at most... a -5/-10/-15 hopefully... dont forget its rogues we are talking about, not fighters, paladins or pale masters <3 . PS: its a lil bugged atm on Lama, spending 1 AP its giving +2 to dex instead of one... but u shud leave it like that so it ends up as a +2/+4/+6 to dex )

Staff Lunge: i like it! but animation seems too slow to be really usable DPS wise (hitting 2-3 targets in 2 secs wile i can just cleave and deal a LOT more dps than that :< ... i like it, dont get me wrong, but make the animation instant and hit a small arch in front of the character or just take it away.

Improved Glancing Blows: You know? nobody really cares about glancing blows proc. Get rid of it, or change/add to it glancing blow DAMAGE or else no one will take it cus its not worth it considering all the AP thats needed to spend to reach next tier.

Multiple Enhancement Selector: Strenght or Dex': I understand that compared to how it is on live right now its cheaper to take these on Lama, since taking both will cost just 4 and not 6 AP, but arent you taking into consideration all the AP and abilities that are new now that we will take along with the ones we HAVE to take to reach the 4th tier? Make (if not both) at least the first cost 1 AP because moving one to a lower tier seems impossible.

No Mercy: :| hehehe... thank you SO much

Improved Deffensive Roll: nice! i am definetly taking deffensive roll from now on <3

Vault: OMG YES!!!!!!! ive been wanting this so much for so long, ever since i read Morah's band description... and since i used to pole vault in my athlete days :P . But... it hurts me to see it so high at tier and costing so much... 2AP seems so expensive for acrobats... really. My suggestions are:
*lower the cost to 1 AP;
or
*make it an innate core ability at lvl 18 or 20, after spending 40 or 50 points in the tree... auto granted, sort of.

And speaking of Core Abilities, my thoughts are:

Stick Fighting: its good. Make it add a 5% staff alacrity, removing it from "Acrobatics"

Tumbler: Thank you i like this, but i still think that the tumble skill should add dodge or AC bonuses to acrobats... what about a 10% from total tumble skill to be added to dodge?

'Cartwheel Charge' & 'Followthrough' tumble bonuses: the only proble i find is that the higher your tumble score, the longer it takes the animation, also further it moves... i dont see real viability for it, since it seems to slow me down... My suggestion is the following: make certain combat feats (specially acrobat tree ones) trigger the bonus, like a 75% (max) for Cartwheel Charge and a 50% minimum for Followthrough when using combat feats (except stunnig fist for practical semantic reasons)

Cartwheel Charge: make it level 16 and place VAULT as a lvl 18 core ability. (Edit: oh, and i forgot to mention... make acrobat hurt enemies with this ability each time they tumble through them <3 )

Followthrough: you know? at capstone acrobats should the so wanted 20% staff alacrity... nad the knockdown effect on vorpal after tumbling? i like it, but it should be permanent in my opinion, of course, with the mandatory requirement of weilding a staff.

And now, the bad things... what i think we are missing:

* Our beloved 10% run speed,
* -4d6 from capstone, (i can live with that)
* dex/str since its so expensive to reach high tiers,
* and from what i can tell, Str acrobats gain nothing and lose dex mod to Sneak damage

Also, In general, ...
* the extra action boost
* extra movement speed

And the worse part, if you manage to take in consideration most or some of my suggestions you will be able to make acrobats just as viable as assasins, because the way things are right now, we will only end up having Assasins that are able to assasinate just as effectively along with being inmune to knock down (i did it, check the picture below)



and with points to spare! which will be like 14 total to spare once you make core abilities cost 0 AP.

..

So... yeah, thats it, cant think of anything else right now. That would be it, so, in general my main suggestion would be to block core abilities once the player has chose their main class tree... yeah... need a break, cant think anymore <3

Peace all <3

[Dreppo]

without any doubt the best way to go is assasin, because as assasin i will still be able to be taking Kip Up along with Assasinate

Just wanted to address this one point you made. You're looking at it in terms of an assassin being able to splash into acrobat deep enough to get Kip Up (the nerve!), but you fail to mention that an acrobat can splash into assassin deep enough to get Assassinate. And the Assassinate DC is just based on rogue levels + INT mod, so you can assassinate just as well as an assassin if you invest the same amount of INT (well their capstone gives +2 INT so they'll be one ahead). Mechanics can splash deep enough to get either Kip Up or Assassinate according to their taste. This is in no way something being taken from acrobat and handed to assassin. (Incidentally between Kip Up and Assassinate... it's pretty clear which one is more impactful.) The fact is any character will have enough AP to take one PrE all the way to tier 5 and then still make a sizeable tier 4 investment in a second PrE. Will it be assassin with a side of tempest? Acrobat with a side of henshin mystic? Battle engineer with a side of deepwood sniper? And so on. There are so many tantalizing options ahead of us. We've never been able to go so deep into two different PrE's before. The results will be more powerful builds than we have now, that's very clear already.

[Wizza]

Where are the Extra Action boosts? Is it missing? Don't see them.

[~Hexfax]

Just wanted to address this one point you made. You're looking at it in terms of an assassin being able to splash into acrobat deep enough to get Kip Up (the nerve!), but you fail to mention that an acrobat can splash into assassin deep enough to get Assassinate. And the Assassinate DC is just based on rogue levels + INT mod, so you can assassinate just as well as an assassin if you invest the same amount of INT (well their capstone gives +2 INT so they'll be one ahead). Mechanics can splash deep enough to get either Kip Up or Assassinate according to their taste. This is in no way something being taken from acrobat and handed to assassin. (Incidentally between Kip Up and Assassinate... it's pretty clear which one is more impactful.)

I think one thing that you are ignoring is that INT isn't really needed for an Acrobat, so is a bit of a dumpstat for Acrobats. On the other hand, there's no stat requirement needed for the Kip Up perk and an Assassin or Mechanic can pick up the needed AP without dipping into the quarterstaff abilities.

This isn't to negate your point, since your point is true that dipping into other trees for their goodies. However, it is a bit disingenuous to say that an Acrobat will basically only be 1 DC behind an Assassin for Assassinate.

[~no_name_displayed]

Some feedback towards the AP-Distribution for Assassins. Currently, It's commonly done to take most of the enhancements which increase damage, Haste Boost and Wand and Scroll Mastery. If I try to do this with the new enhancements, the following happens:

Getting Deadly Shadow needs 40 AP spent in the assassin tree and another 2 for the Capstone itself, i.e. 42 AP on the assassin tree.
Wand and Scroll Mastery is a tier 3 ability from the mechanic tree which requires 10 points spent in tree and costs 2 AP per tier, i.e. 16 AP on the mechanic tree.
Haste Boost is a tier 2 ability from the Acrobat tree which requires 5 points spent in tree and costs 2 AP per tier, i.e. 11 AP on the acrobat tree.

In sum, this leaves 80 - 42 - 16 - 11 = 11 AP on the racial tree. This amount of AP restricts yourself basically to racial abilities up to tier 2, e.g. only one tier of Halfling Sneak Attack enhancement can be chosen.

Additionally, the Assassin tree offers less sneak attack damage than the old enhancements: The extra SA die you get with Assassin I - III can be found at tier 1 to 3 of the tree, and tier 4 adds another +3.5 SA damage. But the sneak attack damage line (which offered +3 damage per tier, up to +12 damage) is gone.

It doesn't make me happy to realize that trying to rebuild what's pretty much standard nowadays doesn't work due to AP restrictions. However, if the APs invested in the racial tree would count as AP spent for any tree (for the matters of abilities, not core abilities), this would give an incentive to give more attention to the racial trees.

[~Cisko]

Just wanted to address this one point you made. You're looking at it in terms of an assassin being able to splash into acrobat deep enough to get Kip Up (the nerve!), but you fail to mention that an acrobat can splash into assassin deep enough to get Assassinate. And the Assassinate DC is just based on rogue levels + INT mod, so you can assassinate just as well as an assassin if you invest the same amount of INT (well their capstone gives +2 INT so they'll be one ahead). Mechanics can splash deep enough to get either Kip Up or Assassinate according to their taste. This is in no way something being taken from acrobat and handed to assassin. (Incidentally between Kip Up and Assassinate... it's pretty clear which one is more impactful.) The fact is any character will have enough AP to take one PrE all the way to tier 5 and then still make a sizeable tier 4 investment in a second PrE. Will it be assassin with a side of tempest? Acrobat with a side of henshin mystic? Battle engineer with a side of deepwood sniper? And so on. There are so many tantalizing options ahead of us. We've never been able to go so deep into two different PrE's before. The results will be more powerful builds than we have now, that's very clear already.

My point is that the Kip Up ability for an acrobat is just like undead traits is for a pale master, for example. Wether you like it or not, allowing an archmage to be able to turn undead too is not how pre's should work in my opinion. Hence my suggestion was that once the player has chosen their primari or main CLASS tree, all other CORE abilities from the same CLASS TREES should be greyed out or blocked from selection. Its my opinion.. its not about whos is stronger or not, who is better and worse... its about how prestige enhancements should work (in my opinion).

Heck, ive been playin acrobats for so long, i have 2 rogues and both are acrobats, and when people ask me why am i acrobat i always say because i enjoy the faster run speed and the (mostly) knockdown inmunity... but with this, as pre's are currently looking at in lamania, i wont have neither! thats my self'refferent argument.

[Wizza]

Where are the Extra Action boosts? Is it missing? Don't see them.

Anyone?

[ranthrock]

Moving the INT bonus to xbow attacks up to level 12 will break INT-based 6/6/8 rog/art/xxx repeater builds. Maybe this is the point?

Thoughts:
1) repeater builds are super fun to play up through about level 16, but at this point start losing out to Casters in terms of damage

2) repeater builds keep going on okay until epic levels, when melee characters really start to outshine then. There are no real good epic crossbow options nor are there epic destinies that help ranged toons as much as melee or caster toons.

3) I like the idea of having int-based rogues. It's fun to imagine my character as a quick-thinker using his wits to get the better of his enemies instead of brute force or speed.

4) The real beauty of the rogue mechanic is its synergy with artificer. One of the really beautiful things about DDO is that you can draw on so many different classes to put together some truly impressive builds. Forcing very deep splashes (12 levels instead of 6 or 2) to get the bonuses we want is going to give us fewer options, not more ones.

5) With regard to points 1 and 2, repeater builds are (like ranged) the build that falls off with epic levels instead of improving with them. After a few levels of dreadnought, my barely geared fighter does great in epics, my uber-geared 6/6/8 mech/arty/ranger looks pretty puny. We need to make sure that these builds don't disappear from the game due to an enhancement pass that kills off a prestige.

Ideas:
1) Rearrange the new mechanic enhancement line so that:

A) trapping bonuses are on the bottom along with xbow int bonus and proficiency

B) the bombs 'n' stuff parts are up at the top (When I think of rogue mechanic, I think of good guys disabling bombs instead of bad guys using them---bad guy rogues can go be dirty filthy assassins).

C) add in some additional bonuses for ranged damage (threat reduction, armor piercing, etc.)

[Xorlandu]

Question is kind of out of nowhere but I was curious if the abilities in the acrobat tree that require a quarterstaff are usable/active in wolf form. On the live servers lightning mace from LD can be used in wolf form with a quarterstaff equiped. I'm wondering if the 15% attack speed while using quarterstaves would be active and are you able to use quick strike while in wolf form.

[Diyon]

Question is kind of out of nowhere but I was curious if the abilities in the acrobat tree that require a quarterstaff are usable/active in wolf form. On the live servers lightning mace from LD can be used in wolf form with a quarterstaff equiped. I'm wondering if the 15% attack speed while using quarterstaves would be active and are you able to use quick strike while in wolf form.

On live this currently isn't the case. I checked with devs all the way back into the MotU Beta: acrobat staff bonuses don't work in animal form.

[Kik96]

I have a pure rogue-mechanic and a pure rogue-assassin. Now just looking at the new enahncement trees I won't be able to get either one to the capstone enhancement since I would now have to spend points in other rogue trees to get the enhancements they currently have. Or I would have to just say the heck with it and nerf them by taking just the enhancements in their prestige class tree only. I honestly think awareness, stealthy and faster sneaking should be in all three trees and haste boost should also be in the assassin tree. I think skills boost should also be a part of all three trees. Basically I think awareness, stealthy, faster sneaking and skills boost are really something a basic rogue should have and not be resticted to just certian prestige classes. I know under the current enhancement system my rogues all have search, spot, move silently, hide, listen, disable, open lock and faster sneaking regardless of the prestige class they will eventually be. I think these are all part of being your basic rogue.

[Jay203]

Rogue Mechanic needs A LOT OF WORK
tanglefoot is too pathetic to warrant a slot in the core enhancement
int to xbow damage needs to be moved back down to rogue6 tier, the 50% more search/spot range needs to replace tanglefoot
expert trapper move to rogue12
add Master Trapper for Rogue18, give it no more crit fail on traps as well as rolling a 1 no longer auto fail against traps.
move the Wand/Scroll mastery down to tier 2
remove Wand/scroll DC mastery
put UMD in tier 3
change all the DC of the alchemical trap attacks to base 16/18/20 + Rogue Level + Int Mod
get rid of Disable Construct and change it to dominate construct

[Sardonica]

Currently on live the mechanic prestige gives intelligence modifier to damage for crossbows AT LEVEL SIX. Many many people use this, myself included. It is extremely fun for TRing. Moving this feature out to level 12 will enrage enough players that they will leave.

Thank You.

[Hajutze]

Basic idea:
At level 3 when you get the DEX to damage for Quarterstaff's the requirement for THF feats should change from STR to DEX.

[Hajutze]

Ingame Elaborate Dodge gives max dodge bonus instead of + dodge%.

[Carpone]

Love, love, love the Thief-Acrobat tree. I've been a rogue hater for many years, but this revamp has changed my mind. Well done devs!

[EssenceofEvil]

I've been playing with the assassin tree as I plan on tring my barbarian into a rogue assassin.. I doubt the pass will be out by then but it lets me play with my options if it happens during her life as a assassin..

I love the dagger in the back enhancement... Any weapon finessed weapon.. Does this apply to unarmed? Dex monks would be doing lots of rogue splashes in the future if it does.. I just use my lvl4 vet statues and I've been playing with with at least the early enhancements.. Is venomed blades bugged? It feels like it borks my sneak attack. Like it doesn't even happen while turned on..99% of the time. I don't know if I'm just inexperienced sneak attacking but that needs fixed. I like the idea of shiv.. I guess it works if I'm in a party I can't find anyone to group with on lam lol so I can't figure out how effective that argo defusing ability is.

[EssenceofEvil]

I love the dagger in the back enhancement... Any weapon finessed weapon.. Does this apply to unarmed?

No it does not.. just tested it..

[Hajutze]

No it does not.. just tested it..

Might be a bug. The DEX to DMG for shuriken is not working as well, so it might not be WAI.