The Official Rogue Enhancements Discussion Thread!

[SealedInSong]

She's a STR based TWF Thief Acrobat that duals scimitars.

Even though I love staff combat, there're waaay too many exclusively staff-oriented enhancements and very few things that help out those that want to think creatively instead of use a buffed-up poor-crit-profile weapon.

My acrobat uses staves in dreadnought and fury, but uses quite a few handwraps in GMoF and Shadowdancer as well as situationally, and also situationally uses rapiers and shortswords.

Devs were so busy trying to give under-appreciated weapons a boost that they did so at the expense of crafting some enhancements branches that benefit people that don't want to just make a dex staff rogue.

I mean, if DDO were about making Staff Rogues and Nannybots and Dagger Assassins and Shield Defenders only half the playerbase would be gone already.

[Qezuzu]

Having mechanics do this faster makes them unique and separates them from the melee rogues. And, yes, that kind of IS the point of being a mechanic; an expert with trapping, high saves vs traps, and enhanced trapmaking.

I really don't see the appeal of being good at traps. A lot of quests don't feature them, they can often be avoided manually, and if all else fails and you don't have a trapper you can be rezzed on the other side. Not to mention so many classes have Wings now. They are one single, uncommon obstacle in quests and I just don't see how it's supposed to be fun to specced to handle them.

So how about you suggest things like "buff the damage for the elemental mines" or "let us deploy mines instantly" and bonuses/abilities to xbow attack, besides getting flustered that Assassins and Acrobats will encroach on "your" prestige tree just for some easy bonuses.

Oh, I just had a good idea. I'll write it up in a bit.

[Cernunan]

I mean, if DDO were about making Staff Rogues and Nannybots and Dagger Assassins and Shield Defenders only half the playerbase would be gone already.

By the way, this exactly describes what they are doing over at NWO.

[bhgiant]

Does it force you to use DEX or is it like the special named weapons where it uses the higher bonus?

It's the higher of the two.

[SealedInSong]

By the way, this exactly describes what they are doing over at NWO.

And exactly what will decapitate this already clunky, old, poor-graphics game that people mostly loved for the creativity.

[SealedInSong]

It's the higher of the two.

1) I love you, thanks
2) So that means that str-acrobats will have to spend 4 AP on enhancements that do exactly nothing for them?

@#$% this ^&*(

[Qezuzu]

C'mon Q...let's promote creativity here. "You were doing it wrong" is such a sad statement to make.

Well alright then, let me rephrase: if you weren't using improved deception weapons, you were missing out.

A few things:
-Accessories stack with weapons, meaning a higher rate of deception proc
-Deception proc acts like a bluff. When it procs, the mob often turns around and doesn't attack for a couple seconds
-The proc rate with dual ID weapons and an accessory are so high that it's trivial to maintain sneak attack on a mob that's aggroed on you. The constant procs also cause the mob to simply stand there for a large portion of combat
-With haste boost, you can regularly "lock" a red-named boss down. They get hit with deception at so high a rate that they can't do much of anything, even with only one rogue

Other weapons may have higher damage, CC effects or fun things like Vacuum, but they just don't compare to the utility of ID.

At any rate, daggers are *the* iconic weapon for DnD rogues. It's not odd to add bonuses to them. Kukri is likely in there for eMG and literally no other reason. Ignore the bonuses and use any weapon, if you want, or just lobby to add rapiers an shortswords in there too (the only bonus they're missing out on is the improved crit profile and not needing weapon finesse to get DEX to DMG).

She's a STR based TWF Thief Acrobat that duals scimitars.

Well, just ignore the bonuses to staffs. They're not nerfing your ability to use any weapon you want.

Now, Stalwart Defender *requires* a lot of its abilities (some of which are already on live, with a restriction) to be used with a shield. *That* is pigeon-holing.

At least Varg said they'd "loosen" (and by loosen I hope they mean remove) the shield requirements.

[bhgiant]

1) I love you, thanks
2) So that means that str-acrobats will have to spend 4 AP on enhancements that do exactly nothing for them?

@#$% this ^&*(

Well, right now, if you are a STR acrobat, you spend 12AP on Dex Rogue Dexterity I-III as well as 5 AP on Rogue Faster Sneaking I, Improved Balance II, Improved Tumble II. The new enhancements have none of those things as requirements. Instead, you have the option of taking them or a host of other actually useful abilities. I'm pretty pleased with most of Acrobat actually. Not all of it, but I'll write a more comprehensive review later after I've played with it a bit more.

[SealedInSong]

-Accessories stack with weapons, meaning a higher rate of deception proc

I forget--does regular deception, improved deception, and offhand regular+improved deception stack?

I'm not quite sure of the stacking but I've experienced at least improved+offhand improved stacking

[SealedInSong]

Well, right now, if you are a STR acrobat, you spend 12AP on Dex Rogue Dexterity I-III as well as 5 AP on Rogue Faster Sneaking I, Improved Balance II, Improved Tumble II. The new enhancements have none of those things as requirements. Instead, you have the option of taking them or a host of other actually useful abilities. I'm pretty pleased with most of Acrobat actually. Not all of it, but I'll write a more comprehensive review later after I've played with it a bit more.

I agree that acrobat is leaps and bounds better than, say, Archmage (lacking secondary SLA line) and clerics (all of it).

I think it'd be best if they changed it to:

(1) Acrobat: Use dex to hit and damage with staves

(3) Stick Fighting (2 AP): Add dex modifier to sneak attacks

Like on live, having the dex-mod-to-SA guarantees that there's a scaling net benefit to more dexterity.

[SealedInSong]

where's our enhancement to it as acrobats?

[Qezuzu]

Alright, here is my suggestion for mechanic:

(core) Tanglefoot (2 AP): Alchemical Grenade area attack. Enemies on the acid puddle takes 4d6 acid damage every 2 seconds and are slowed (DC for each part is 10 + 1/2 rogue levels + int. Half damage or no slow). 30 secs cooldown.

(tier 1) Thunderstone (1 AP): Alchemical grenade. 4d6/6d6/8d6 sonic damage to target and dazes in the nearby area if they fail at a Fort save (DC 12/14/16 + half rogue levels + int)

(tier 2) Improved Traps (1 AP): +1/2/3 to DCs of your alchemical attacks and magical traps. Elemental traps that you place now have a DC of 65%/80%/100% of your disable skill instad of 50%.

(tier 3) Ooze Flask (1 AP): Requires Thunderstone at same tier. Alchemical grenade. Single target. 4d8/8d8/12d8 acid damage and reduces his AC by 2/4/8 for 30 secs (Fort DC 10 + half rogue + int to negate AC debuff). Cooldown: 12 secs.

(tier 5) Time Bomb (2 AP): Requires Ooze Flask at same tier. Alchemical trap. Creates a trap at your feet. After 10 seconds it explodes and deal 10/25/50 fire and 10/25/50 sonic damage per rogue level to all nearby enemies, and knock them to the ground. Reflex DC 10 + half rogue + int to reduce damage in half, Balance same DC to avoid knockdown. Cooldown: 2 minutes.

Scrap all of these, they suck.

Replace with:

(core) Bombardment (2 AP): You are able to add your DEX mod to the DC's of your alchemical grenades, and you have a chance for a grenade to return to you (based on DEX, I'm thinking straight 1:1 ratio e.g. 10 DEX mod means 10% chance to not expend a grenade). Furthermore, you can greatly increase the rate of fire of your grenades, and an even greater chance to have a grenade return to you (thinking double the chance of return, rate of fire would increase by 50% or something, 120s cooldown 20 sec duration).

(tier 2) Mass Production(1 AP): Grenades cost 20/40/60% less parts to make and do 10/20/30% more damage. Traps cost 10/20/30% less parts.

(tier 3) Improved Deployment (1 AP): Elemental traps that you place now have a DC of 65%/80%/100% of your disable skill instead of 50%, and the time it takes to deploy them is reduced by 30/60/90%.

(tier 4) Fireworks (1 AP): Your grenades have a chance to proc a second effect

-Fire: Target is engulfed in flames and takes 4d6/6d6/8d6 additional damage every 2 seconds for 30 seconds. Additional procs will reset the timer
-Acid: Target's fortification is lowered by 5/10/15% for 30 seconds
-Cold: Target is slowed by 10/20/30%
-Electric: Target's saves are reduced by 2/4/6
-Sonic: Target is stunned for 2/4/6 seconds
-Force: Target is knocked down for 2/4/6 seconds

(tier 5) Watch Your Step (1 AP): Multiplies the damage your mines do by 20/40/60% of your INT mod, and reduces their cooldown by 25/50/75%.

[Qezuzu]

I forget--does regular deception, improved deception, and offhand regular+improved deception stack?

I'm not quite sure of the stacking but I've experienced at least improved+offhand improved stacking

Accessory, offhand, and main hand sources of ID all stack.

I am not sure about two accessories, but I don't think so.

[Corzak]

I'm unable to find the base runspeed increase that's currently available to acrobats. I'm also feeling a little bummed about having to take -30% fort from a toggle to gain 3% dodge, since acrobats currently have 4% built in.

[oradafu]

Except that you are doing it in different ways. I have rogues of each prestige, and I think I'm if anything most biased towards my acrobat. That aside, the arguments seem to be:

1) Make trapsmithing the core of mechanics. Mechanics need that to distinguish them.
2) Trapsmithing should be innately easy for mechanics, but not their highlight. Their highlights should be: ______.

Personally (and from some other responses here), I'd prefer for that blank to be filled with lots of ranged and trap damage.

I think you are arguing for the former point, but the points are not mutually exclusive. Everyone wants mechanics to be appealing and flavorful and powerful, the former camp (you) just wants trapsmithing to be a highlight whereas the latter group wants the ranged, grenade effects, and trap setting abilities of the mechanics to be their most powerful ability with trapsmithing as a bonus.

That is because, as you said, we can all do traps just fine regardless of being a mechanic.

I do not think that the faster disabling/whatever trapsmithing abilities should be tiered higher. If anything, I think it should remain just where it is and all the offensive capabilities should be somewhere on the order of doubled in their power. Yes, doubled. :] I do love my mechanic.

This is pretty much my feelings about what Mechanic should be focused on. Although don't play a Mechanic, I believe the major buffs to Mechanic should be getting some unique damage buffs. Pigeon holing Mechanics as strictly trapmonkeys is a trap (pun).

What are some buffs for Mechanic? I'd probably have Leg Shot buffed up with a Bleeding, Lacerating or even a Hemorrhaging DoT. Mechanics should also have some sort of Flashbang/Smokebomb Grenade: something that combines Solidfog and Sunburst with maybe some Force damage. As I said, I'm not a Mechanic, but buffs like these would be useful in more quests than just the ones that have traps and would be more uniquely Mechanic than doing traps more quickly.

[MaximusParthas]

please take into account that an assassins primary stat is NOT dexterity.
Also I'm not keen on wasting AP's to lure us into using kukris and daggers unless there is a plan in play to significantly make these weapons more competitive.

Right now I'm playing an assassin 3 fighter2 splash which dual wields the ax of adaxus.
I don't see that as unrogue like at all.
Why should we have pigeonholed powers that can't be used unless we do such and such?

And poison? That was a fail with the prestige to begin with. End game creatures above normal difficulty seem to be inherently immune to poison or stat damage. Why I don't know.

[SealedInSong]

I'm unable to find the base runspeed increase that's currently available to acrobats. I'm also feeling a little bummed about having to take -30% fort from a toggle to gain 3% dodge, since acrobats currently have 4% built in.

I totally forgot the dodge component they will be missing.

Uuugh.

Also, I was hoping for some kind of decreased cooldown to uncanny dodge. That would be miles ahead of any crappy fort-debuff+dodge+buff passive.

[Qezuzu]

Also I'm not keen on wasting AP's to lure us into using kukris and daggers unless there is a plan in play to significantly make these weapons more competitive.

15-20/x3 crit profile is pretty competitive.

[bhgiant]

I whipped up a quick Human Acrobat/Assassin build. With all the doom and gloom I thought it was worth posting.



The highlights
Dex to hit and damage with quarterstaves
immunity to most knockdown and slippery surfaces
+4 to-hit, +6 damage with quarterstaves (base dmg, added before crit mult)
+4 SA dice
+1d8 poison damage (permanent)
+3 seeker (inherant and stacking)
+1 bonus to crit range and multiplier with quarterstaves
+15% attack speed with quarterstaves, +3 to balance jump and tumble
+30% Haste Boost
+20% Damage Boost
+30% damage to helpless opponents
Quick Strike (3[W] attack which gives me 25% doublestrike for 10 seconds afterward, 12 second cooldown)
Sweeping Strike (3[W] attack which acts like a Great Cleve and trips all opponent around you for DC 10 + ½ Rogue level + Dex mod)
Improved Defensive Roll (at 50% or below health, you have a chance equal to your Reflex save to reduce damage delt to you to 20% of it's original value)

What is lost from the old enhancement
+Dex mod to Sneak Attack
+12 Sneak Attack damage from enhancement
+20% movement speed

I can understand the disappointment for what is lost. It requires some rethinking about builds. I don't think the Acrobat prestige is perfect, in fact, I think there are some things that absolutely need to be changed (movement speed enhancements need to be added to the core abilities and Cartwheel Charge need to go like an overstaying mother-in-law), but don't give into the knee jerk reaction of hating the new thing because you can't have what you always had.

[oradafu]

What is lost from the old enhancement
+Dex mod to Sneak Attack
+12 Sneak Attack damage from enhancement
+20% movement speed

I can understand the disappointment for what is lost. It requires some rethinking about builds. I don't think the Acrobat prestige is perfect, in fact, I think there are some things that absolutely need to be changed (movement speed enhancements need to be added to the core abilities and Cartwheel Charge need to go like an overstaying mother-in-law), but don't give into the knee jerk reaction of hating the new thing because you can't have what you always had.

Acrobats also lost +11 bonus to Balance, Jump and Tumble and a +4 Dex temporary bonus. Okay, that temporary Dex can be turned into a permanent +3 Dex at the loss of -30% Fort. Also most players don't care about the Acrobat skill boost.

But still what is missing is what players gain at level 12 in the game currently. Also there are things that one would expect for a full acrobat that the new enhancements didn't improve on. For example, staff attack speed bonus didn't increase at all... In fact, Acrobats never gained the 20% staff attack speed that should be at Acrobat II but has been broken forever, while Acrobat Monks appear to gain more speed.

Inherent Acrobat stuff currently available in the game should be on par, if not better, with the live server.