The Official Rogue Enhancements Discussion Thread!

[Qezuzu]

Full commentary in this thread.

• THE OBVIOUS SYNERGY BETWEEN STRENGTH-ACROBATS AND TACTICAL DCs, OVERWHELMING CRITICAL QUALIFICATION, EASY-TO-ACQUIRE STRENGTH BOOSTS, LEGENDARY DREADNOUGHT, AND POWER ATTACK THF 1.5(DAMAGE).

That's huge. That's terrible. That's really crappy. Shame on you, devs. The only way to rectify this is to craft an enhancement that allows dex to be used if it's higher than strength for to-hit and damage, the use of dex for 1.5 damage with power attack, and the use of dex for all tactical abilities--particularly stunning blow and trip. The cost of the dex to-hit/damage that people shouldn't be forced to purchase anyway should be cut in half or autogranted

Does it force you to use DEX or is it like the special named weapons where it uses the higher bonus?

[arcattaii]

Why you don't want quick disable, +3 to skills, or skill boost?

Yes, quick disable is nice ability, but it's not necessary ability for an assassin, even not for a rogue.

Rogue is always an AP-tight-class, so I won't spend AP on them if I have better choices.

[SealedInSong]

Does it force you to use DEX or is it like the special named weapons where it uses the higher bonus?

I'd also like to know, but from the wording I am not encouraged.

If it's as I suggested and uses the higher of str or dex it's still relevant though, as I have to purchase junky core enhancements that don't benefit me at all.

[arcattaii]

Full commentary in this thread.

What I'm perceiving acrobats lost:

• The promise of actual 20% staff alacrity
• 4d6 SA capstone
• Dexterity mod to sneak attack damage
• THE OBVIOUS SYNERGY BETWEEN STRENGTH-ACROBATS AND TACTICAL DCs, OVERWHELMING CRITICAL QUALIFICATION, EASY-TO-ACQUIRE STRENGTH BOOSTS, LEGENDARY DREADNOUGHT, AND POWER ATTACK THF 1.5(DAMAGE).

That's huge. That's terrible. That's really crappy. Shame on you, devs. The only way to rectify this is to craft an enhancement that allows dex to be used if it's higher than strength for to-hit and damage, the use of dex for 1.5 damage with power attack, and the use of dex for all tactical abilities--particularly stunning blow and trip. The cost of the dex to-hit/damage that people shouldn't be forced to purchase anyway should be cut in half or autogranted.

They gained:

• Vault, which is neat
• No Mercy (except almost no ability to induce helplessness themselves)
• Snazzier defensive roll (though I suspect most won't train this)
• Ephemeral post-tumble buffs (which are functionally useless since you're reducing your DPS to pause forever and tumble, reposition relative to enemy, and take advantage of the nanosecond of buff that you get from tumbling)

100% agree.

4d6 SA is Ok, since you get +1 range/multiplier for QStaff instead, but Acrobats still lose a lot of damage compared to live.

The attack speed change is another lame example of Turbine just changing the ability description for their obvious bug lol.

Cartwheel Charge is very very poor, you may just drink a Rage pot for 1:30min morale bonus 2STR/CON buff, so this ability will just give you 2DEX for 6 seconds actually.

Followthrough is also not good except the passive +2STR/DEX part.

[Qezuzu]

I'd also like to know, but from the wording I am not encouraged.

Then maybe you (or someone) should go test that.

[SealedInSong]

Cartwheel Charge is very very poor, you may just drink a Rage pot for 1:30min morale bonus 2STR/CON buff, so this ability will just give you 2DEX for 6 seconds actually.

I didn't even see the morale bonus type.

Jesus. H. Christ. That ability is such a trap. You gain like 1 damage on your next hit (two if you're lucky) at the expense of not hitting for the entire duration of your crappy tumble, which is likely putting you farther away from your enemy.

Updating OP.

Thank you for pointing this atrocity out.

[MalarKan]

'Sweeping Strikes': i ALWAYS wanted this, its like they read my forum post where i suggested long ago :3

'Quick Strike': i loved the short the 25% double strike. BUT i was really expecting it to be more permanent than just temporary. But of course, while only weilding staves.

'Staff Lunge': loved the new animation, good work. BUT i would suggest this special ability to count as tumble action triggering "Cartwheel charge" and "Followthrough" same as adding a chance for all (yes, ALL) tactical feats including the new acrobat ones to trigger the same effects of above (like a 50% for cleave, 80% for great cleave, 100% for 'Staff Lunge', and u can fill in the rest).

*PS: 'Vault'? They MUST have read mi post :3 i love it...

'Acrobatic': dont get me wrong, i love its effects and i WILL use it... but putting them available for someone with just 1 rogue level to access the 15% staff alacrity is not the way to go. 5% in tier 1 is good, tho probly should go in tier 2, the 10% in tier 3 and 15% in tier 4... Oh and a 20% in tier 5!!! . And put a minimum rogue level prerrequisite to AP spend in each tier. someone with just 1 rogue level SHOULD NOT be able to access any rogue capstone.

Also, i would like to suggest to forget the "half rogue level" for determinating the tactical feats's DC, just give it the full class level for it to be really usable in epics, and even low, mid, high level, its only way to make not only usable but effective when playing elite quests at level, for example.

My acrobatic 2 cents <3

[Ayseifn]

I really don't what the devs have done here for the most part, we got the faster search/disable people have wanted for a long time but for some strange reason we also got Measure the Foe. So I get to sit in sneak mode for 10 secs if I want to maximize my chance of assassinating an EE monster?

Execute, Poison Strikesx3, Bleed Them Out, Shiv, Assassin's trick, Sly Flourish are all one off attacks from what I can tell, add in Sweeping Strikes and Staff Lunge for staff users. Way too many clickies on a squishy melee class that's more reliant on positioning than others.

The 3 tree limit really hurts here, like others in this thread I want scroll mastery/haste boost/SA damage on any mostly rogue build but now it'll block me from any other class tree. The push to make pure rogues a strong choice over the last few years I think has gone a little too far now, lots of abilities that scale only with rog level and usually int but sometimes dex, strong capstones and now this three tree limit. Going to have to wait for the other classes to come next week to really get a feel for things but deep multiclassing of rogues doesn't look all that enticing anymore.

The weapon pigeonholing isn't cool either, tier 3 core in assassin or acrobat trees before I get something that doesn't buff normally terrible weapons. And the trees themselves are littered with buffs to them, I wouldn't mind if it was a big buff to say daggers and a smaller one to other weapons which wouldn't be too hard to do espescially if you want to add back in some sneak attack to-hit/dmg to all prestiges.

[arcattaii]

Too many abilities using HALF ROGUE LEVEL for their DC, let's make a calculation:

Let's estimate 58-60 is a reliable number, then DC = 10(base) + 10(half rogue level) + 38(INT modifier), that means you need 86INT to reliably land your rogue abilities to EE mobs.

The Toxin/Venom line from Assassin is a joke, because bosses will probably immune to these effects. And mobs will usually die in seconds, why shall we use the venom?

The Alchemical Grenade is a joke too.. IMO, the reason is still the ridiculous low DC.. they should all use your Disable Skill for DC

[Qezuzu]

Someone refresh me on the core abilities. If I purchase all the core abilities in Assassin, can I get knockdown immunity from Acrobat?

[SealedInSong]

Then maybe you (or someone) should go test that.

and Lama routinely crashes for me. But yes, I would love to if I could.

Clearly I'm living vicariously by doubling my post count in the forums, shrieking at devs for their incompetence with the divine trees.

[SealedInSong]

Too many abilities using HALF ROGUE LEVEL for their DC, let's make a calculation:

Let's estimate 58-60 is a reliable number, then DC = 10(base) + 10(half rogue level) + 38(INT modifier), that means you need 86INT to reliably land your rogue abilities to EE mobs.

The Toxin/Venom line from Assassin is a joke, because bosses will probably immune to these effects. And mobs will usually die in seconds, why shall we use the venom?

The Alchemical Grenade is a joke too.. IMO, the reason is still the ridiculous low DC.. they should all use your Disable Skill for DC

EH should be our benchmark for whether DCs are viable at all, and it's still not viable for those.

I'm okay with EEs being extremely tough but not impossible for DCs to land.

They should alternatively consider just taking the DC away for some of the abilities that are weaker, or even nerfing some of the abilities but taking away the save.

At least that way you know that's it's not going to be 100% useless for 90% of all rogues.

[nibel]

Someone refresh me on the core abilities. If I purchase all the core abilities in Assassin, can I get knockdown immunity from Acrobat?

If you mean "instantly, without much investment on the acrobat tier", no.

If you mean "I can have other core abilities besides the one I have a capstone", then yes.

The knckdown immunity ability requires 20 points spent on the acrobat tree. So, you just will be left with 16 AP for your third tree and racials if you also want Deadly Shadows from assassin tree.

[Qezuzu]

So I get to sit in sneak mode for 10 secs if I want to maximize my chance of assassinating an EE monster?

I don't think it says you have to stand still. So if you're just moving down a hallway or something, you'll be good to go for your Assassinate.

The weapon pigeonholing isn't cool either, tier 3 core in assassin or acrobat trees before I get something that doesn't buff normally terrible weapons. And the trees themselves are littered with buffs to them, I wouldn't mind if it was a big buff to say daggers and a smaller one to other weapons which wouldn't be too hard to do espescially if you want to add back in some sneak attack to-hit/dmg to all prestiges.

If you weren't already using Kukri (Epic Midnight's Greetings) and dagger (Agony), you were doing it wrong. Improved deception is a must.

[HastyPudding]

This isn't, and shouldn't be, the Mechanic's flagship ability--it is a quality of life enhancement. Truthfully, I think it needs to be applied to the whole game for free--spending a long time disabling traps and searching (and opening doors, pulling a lever, etc...) is just annoying. I don't think they need to be instantaneous, but much faster would be good.

Having mechanics do this faster makes them unique and separates them from the melee rogues. And, yes, that kind of IS the point of being a mechanic; an expert with trapping, high saves vs traps, and enhanced trapmaking.

Just because you can do something faster doesn't make you an expert. Besides, what ability would you like to move down to replace Faster Disable? Skill Boost? Wand Heighten so that Wand Mastery and UMD get moved down a tier?

Let's be serious for a moment. Faster Disable is a convenience ability. The faster players can disable traps, then the faster a quest can be completed.

Spoken like an assassin on live that says 'I can get traps without being a mechanic'. Seriously? With this being on tier 1, ANY class that splashes a level or two of rogue can instantly do traps. That's bogus in and of itself.

I would put skill boost on a lower tier, as every rogue tends to use that. Mechanics need something that's unique to them and not constantly being shat on by other rogues and artificers like they are on live. Putting this ability on tier 1 will do nothing but make people say 'Hey, I think mechanic looks like fun--oh wait, I can just put an expendable 3 points in the tree and do instant trapping and go assassin and still zerg in quests.'

As it is on live, there is no difference between the disabling skills of an Assassin and a mechanic. They both have the same disabling skills (unless you count junk like the Cabal trap).

Even if you put the faster search into a higher tier, Assassins/acrobats will take it anyway because Wand and Scroll Mastery is at tier3.

It's also not quite like making Assassinate or Knockdown immunity easily-accessible: faster searching is a completely new ability. And do you really want your PrE's core ability being "better trapmonkey?"

Once again, you too speak like the typical assassin on live. "Screw mechanic, give me my wand/scroll/umd boost and fast trapping so I can spend my points in the assassin tree."

And therein lies the problem with live right now; there really IS no benefit to going mechanic, because assassins -- and to a slightly lesser degree, acrobats -- can do traps just as well. Add in the fact that artificer completely made mechanics obsolete and trap-making is next to useless past the harbor levels and it's even worse.



None of you made a mechanic on live, did you? I'm wiling to bet all three of you are either an assassin or acrobat junkie. I am sure you never heard 'Why are you a mechanic? Just go artificer.' or "Why mechanic? Assassins are sooo much better."

There's an almost social stigma surrounding mechanics (even more so when artificers arrived). Putting a great ability like this on tier 1 is pretty damaging to anyone wanting to be a mechanic (like myself) as there is just nothing special about them aside from crossbows and having an almost guaranteed no-fail trap skill. Their saves-vs-traps ability (another strong point for mechanics) is also tier 1. Basically everything that makes a mechanic a mechanic is very easy to get.

If it sounds like I'm lobbying/advocating for mechanics, it's because I am. This enhancement pass, which I was hoping would make mechanics viable, seems to be doing the exact opposite. All they did was make them easy to exploit for faster trapping and a few boosts and gave them some next-to-useless grenade abilities that have useless DC's. I am not impressed.

[FunnyCide]

The Alpha version of Thief Acrobat would totally break my rogue build. Heh, any of the trees would break my rogue build, completely. She has been my favorite character for a long time. If this pigeon holing goes live...chances are I may finally quit. I've rolled with a lot of the changes that have come to the game but the loss of freedom to build how I want isn't one I'm willing to live with.

So is Bill Roper the new exec producer? Coz that's what it feels like.

[Qezuzu]

The Alpha version of Thief Acrobat would totally break my rogue build. Heh, any of the trees would break my rogue build, completely. She has been my favorite character for a long time. If this pigeon holing goes live...chances are I may finally quit.

How would it break your build, and how does it pigeon-hole?

[FunnyCide]

How would it break your build, and how does it pigeon-hole?

She's a STR based TWF Thief Acrobat that duals scimitars.

[SealedInSong]

If it sounds like I'm lobbying/advocating for mechanics, it's because I am. This enhancement pass, which I was hoping would make mechanics viable, seems to be doing the exact opposite. All they did was make them easy to exploit for faster trapping and a few boosts and gave them some next-to-useless grenade abilities that have useless DC's. I am not impressed.

Except that you are doing it in different ways. I have rogues of each prestige, and I think I'm if anything most biased towards my acrobat. That aside, the arguments seem to be:

1) Make trapsmithing the core of mechanics. Mechanics need that to distinguish them.
2) Trapsmithing should be innately easy for mechanics, but not their highlight. Their highlights should be: ______.

Personally (and from some other responses here), I'd prefer for that blank to be filled with lots of ranged and trap damage.

I think you are arguing for the former point, but the points are not mutually exclusive. Everyone wants mechanics to be appealing and flavorful and powerful, the former camp (you) just wants trapsmithing to be a highlight whereas the latter group wants the ranged, grenade effects, and trap setting abilities of the mechanics to be their most powerful ability with trapsmithing as a bonus.

That is because, as you said, we can all do traps just fine regardless of being a mechanic.

I do not think that the faster disabling/whatever trapsmithing abilities should be tiered higher. If anything, I think it should remain just where it is and all the offensive capabilities should be somewhere on the order of doubled in their power. Yes, doubled. :] I do love my mechanic.

[SealedInSong]

If you weren't already using Kukri (Epic Midnight's Greetings) and dagger (Agony), you were doing it wrong. Improved deception is a must.

C'mon Q...let's promote creativity here. "You were doing it wrong" is such a sad statement to make.

First of all, iDeception comes from plenty of offhand sources like Backstabber's Gloves, Ring of Lies, Ring of Deception, Golden Guile, and Seal of House Avithoul. Those are all great items to have on a rogue, too--you can fit them into gear sets without wasting anything.

Just because eMG and Agony work great for you doesn't mean that's what everyone should aspire to--if anything, you should encourage other and be happy for them doing something different and equally effective.

Off the top of my head, dual (even unupgraded) Balizardes and Celestias do quite a bit more damage than eMG/Agony considering Balizarde's crit profile and Celestia's DR-breaking + radiance effects. I've seen a player with dual Vacuum shortswords completely mow down mobs over my eMG-wielding character. Stars of Day can work pretty nicely as well.

I know someone that uses a Cormyrian rapier with life stealing in main hand and a simple Petrifying Hooked Blade for the limbchopper+petrifying to really great effect.

Let's say the devs pulled something out of the crazy hat like they did for the Protection Tree and said, "Assassins now get bonuses when they use axes only" with no buff to kukris/dagger/shuriken.

Wouldn't you be a bit peeved and confused if someone said, "If you're not using dual axes of adaxus, you're doing it wrong."

Anyway, I only pull out eMG for EE when I know my DC absolutely must be shored up--any other content and it's utterly redundant. As for Agony, I use that on a melee wizard...