The Official Rogue Enhancements Discussion Thread!

[rest]

rogue mechanic now much more desirable!

Love time bomb (at least in theory)

and it seems that the hard cap of ranged attack speed of 32% is now lifted - just saw my RogWizArt with haste and haste boost do 57%

there is no hard cap of 32% on ranged attack speed. my kensai AA on live routinely hits 50something.

[Intrepid]

Now that the Dexterity modifier can be used for to-hit and damage modifiers, and coupled with the new set of Trip enhancements, can we expect to see a change in tactical feats to allow the Dexterity modifier to be used in place of Strength? I believe that change would work well for acrobats who use Trip and Stunning Blow as part of their normal combat rotation.

[Kmnh]

On Live, Assassin rogues get +3d6 sneak attack damage from the assassin PrE,+12 sneak attack damage from the assassin tree and +4d6 from the deadly shadow capstone. The new sneao attack training enhancements add up to +4d6 sneak attack damage and deadly shadow is the same. About 9 damage worth of nerfs. yay!

The other trees have it even worse, since they can't take deadly shadow and have to spend a lot of points on the assassin tree to get sneak attack training. I'm sure mechanics and thief acrobats will love doing 8d6+12 damage less than what they can do now on the live servers.

[karl_k0ch]

I trust this means that at least a couple of new named Kukri's are coming in the expansion.

Yes, this would be nice.

However, the first core ability (Kukri proficiency) solves a number of issues why kukris aren't a great choice on live for rogues. While Epic Midnight Greetings is a nice choice as a trash beating (and stabbing) weapon, it doesn't break DR, and is also not great if you can't assassinate (because most of the mobs are, eg, red-named). Since there is only one other weapon type with slashing on a rogue's weapon list, you have the following options if you want to use other weapons than EMG against bosses:

• Take IC: Slashing and use Rapiers without IC:Pierce
• Take IC:Slashing and Exotic Proficiency: Khopeshes (or both IC feats, if you really like Rapiers)
• Take IC: Slashing and have an Elven Cleric grant you Scimiar proficiency
• Take IC: Pierce, and use a non-optimal EMG against trash and Rapiers against bosses
• Take IC: Slashing and splash fighter for Kukri/Scimitar proficiency

With a free Kukri proficiency, you don't need to spend a feat (or do other tricks) to use the same kind of weapon for bosses. With Cannith crafting, you can craft a number of Kukris, depending on what you're going to fight (HB silver/cold iron of GEOB, HB adamantine of GCB, HB (silver) of GUB, etc.).

For me, I'm already looking forward using Kukris on my rogue, even if there are no new Kukris. However, a Kukri with some serious damage (and no DR breaking) or a heavily debuffing Kukri would be nice.

[maddmatt70]

On Live, Assassin rogues get +3d6 sneak attack damage from the assassin PrE,+12 sneak attack damage from the assassin tree and +4d6 from the deadly shadow capstone. The new sneao attack training enhancements add up to +4d6 sneak attack damage and deadly shadow is the same. About 9 damage worth of nerfs. yay!

The other trees have it even worse, since they can't take deadly shadow and have to spend a lot of points on the assassin tree to get sneak attack training. I'm sure mechanics and thief acrobats will love doing 8d6+12 damage less than what they can do now on the live servers.

Yes less sneak damage, but more damage in other forms for the assassin seems more a wash damage wise. +to critical damage, killer, execute, and kukris/dagger are 18-20 X3. There are other benefits in assasin as well thus seems like a bump overall actually. Acrobat is all about the clickies so would really have to analyze those. I am a little concerned about the mechanic in some ways the bomb has a low save dc for example so guessing that mobs just save on epic elite easily probably not a very good a tree overall although nice flavor for the guys that like playing flavor characters and has a few nice things for other rogues to splash.

[Qezuzu]

Assassin tree:
Stat increase (2ap): +1 Dex or +1 Int
Stat increase (2ap): +1 Dex or +1 Int

Measure the Foe (1ap): Gain +1 to hit and to the DCs of your assassinate abilities every 6/4/2 seconds you remain stealthed. This effect stacks up to 5 times.

Oh sweet mercy.

[Qezuzu]

On Live, Assassin rogues get +3d6 sneak attack damage from the assassin PrE,+12 sneak attack damage from the assassin tree and +4d6 from the deadly shadow capstone. The new sneao attack training enhancements add up to +4d6 sneak attack damage and deadly shadow is the same. About 9 damage worth of nerfs. yay!

Take into consideration the increased crit range/multiplier, poison stance, all the +[w] abilities, etc...

I'm really, REALLY liking the new enhancements for rogue.

[Kmnh]

Yes less sneak damage, but more damage in other forms for the assassin seems more a wash damage wise. +to critical damage, killer, execute, and kukris/dagger are 18-20 X3. There are other benefits in assasin as well thus seems like a bump overall actually. Acrobat is all about the clickies so would really have to analyze those. I am a little concerned about the mechanic in some ways the bomb has a low save dc for example so guessing that mobs just save on epic elite easily probably not a very good a tree overall although nice flavor for the guys that like playing flavor characters and has a few nice things for other rogues to splash.

Killer might be good enough to catch up to live characters against trash. If you consistently do enough damage that killer and critical damage add up to 10 damage per swing or more, your character actually got better. But to get there you need to be doing 240 average damage already - My character won't suffer, but most others will I think.

Mechanics and Acrobats really got hosed by losing the deadly shadow capstone and sa damage enhancements. 4d6+12 is a lot of damage.

[clkpacker]

Now that the Dexterity modifier can be used for to-hit and damage modifiers, and coupled with the new set of Trip enhancements, can we expect to see a change in tactical feats to allow the Dexterity modifier to be used in place of Strength? I believe that change would work well for acrobats who use Trip and Stunning Blow as part of their normal combat rotation.

Seconded.

Also, please can we have an actual "vaulting" animation? If you're going to take away my sneak damage, you could at least continue the trend of staffs/TAs having the most beautiful weapon animations in-game.

[maddmatt70]

Killer might be good enough to catch up to live characters against trash. If you consistently do enough damage that killer and critical damage add up to 10 damage per swing or more, your character actually got better. But to get there you need to be doing 240 average damage already - My character won't suffer, but most others will I think.

Mechanics and Acrobats really got hosed by losing the deadly shadow capstone and sa damage enhancements. 4d6+12 is a lot of damage.

Well the thing about acrobats is Henshin mystic as well so guessing most acrobats will be Henshin mystic/Acrobat if abilities stack so really impossible to say how that will play out until we see that, but yeah Mechanics are not very good other then for twisting abilities. They need to up the saves on time bomb and make it so it and mechanic works well with destinies. If time bomb was like energy burst with a brief delay could be interesting. I mean why not give time bomb an extremely high save or no save at all (should make this only available to higher level characters and make it so you can bump up the energy damage with gear and destinies).

[Postumus]

Wow, so far I'm really liking the majority of the enhancements. The kukri ability is definitely a nice to have early on.

I'm not sure the overall damage is nerfed, it looks like with all the bonuses to crit, venom, etc it has been boosted.

I think a separate vault animation is also a great idea.

[Ape_Man]

Well the thing about acrobats is Henshin mystic as well so guessing most acrobats will be Henshin mystic/Acrobat if abilities stack so really impossible to say how that will play out until we see that, but yeah Mechanics are not very good other then for twisting abilities. They need to up the saves on time bomb and make it so it and mechanic works well with destinies. If time bomb was like energy burst with a brief delay could be interesting. I mean why not give time bomb an extremely high save or no save at all (should make this only available to higher level characters and make it so you can bump up the energy damage with gear and destinies).

bah . .. just give the Mechanics the ability to place an "undermine" bomb every minute or so and it'll become the greatest PRE int he game.

[HastyPudding]

The mechanic's 'faster disabling' skill needs to be a higher tier. It's too easy for every rogue to put 3 points in mechanic and then not put anything else in it. That's like putting assassinate as a tier 1 assassin ability or a thief acrobat's knockdown immunity at tier 1. Mechanics get a bad rep as it is without idiotic things like this. Mechanics are supposed to be the expert trappers, not assassins and acrobats.

[Lithic]

Anyone check to see if the extra crit range on daggers makes them 15-20 with imp crit, or just 16-20? I would absolutely LOVE to have my rogue using daggers again even if I have to remake all my weapons.

[Mandyb]

The +1 hit with crossbows needs to be for repeaters as well, repeaters are the whole reason I chose mechanic.
I'm going to miss cheat death!

[Sardonica]

Mechanic Tree

(nice pic)

Core abilities:

(1) Arbalester: Raise ranged sneak attack/PBS range by 5 meters, and give proficiency with great xbows
(3) Tanglefoot (2 AP): Alchemical Grenade area taack. Enemies on the acid puddle takes 4d6 acid damage every 2 seconds and are slowed (DC for each part is 10 + 1/2 rogue levels + int. Half damage or no slow). 30 secs cooldown.
(6) Improved Detection (2 AP): You can detect and search traps from 50% further. Gives proficiency with light repeaters
(12) Targeting Sights (2 AP): Uses Int for ranged/throw damage and proficiency with heavy repeaters.
(18) Expert Trapper (2 AP): Reduces the cooldown of all alchemical traps by 20%, and 3/rest if you critical fail while disarming, the box don't blow up on your face.
(20) Master Alchemist (2 AP): Passive +2 Dex/Int. You gain a "special potion" that for 60 seconds give you +1d6 to all stats and +2d6 to attack and damage. Cooldown: 3 minutes.

snip

This looks like mechanic int to damage for repeaters got pushed out from level 6 (Mechanic I on live) to level 12 (Mechanic II). If this is true, it is a huge disappointment (and a deal breaker for some builds). Not happy

[nibel]

The +1 hit with crossbows needs to be for repeaters as well, repeaters are the whole reason I chose mechanic.
I'm going to miss cheat death!

The bonus to hit is for any xbow. Only the damage portion is lower on repeaters (+6 on non-repaters, +2 on repeaters)

[ComicRelief]

The +1 hit with crossbows needs to be for repeaters as well, repeaters are the whole reason I chose mechanic.

They did the same with Artificer X-bow training. You get +1 to hit with ALL X-bows (including repeaters), but only +1 damage for non-repeaters in all ranks. For repeaters, you get the +1 damage in the 2nd and 4th ranks, making non-repeaters +4/+4 (to hit/damage) and repeaters +4/+2 when fully taken. My guess is they thought that since repeaters shoot 3x per round, giving the +1 damage at every rank would make them OP. For low levels, I can see this, but for high levels? *shakes head*

I think if they are going to skip every other rank, they should give repeaters the +1 damage in ranks 1 and 3, instead of 2 and 4.

But what do I know?

[karl_k0ch]

The mechanic's 'faster disabling' skill needs to be a higher tier. It's too easy for every rogue to put 3 points in mechanic and then not put anything else in it. That's like putting assassinate as a tier 1 assassin ability or a thief acrobat's knockdown immunity at tier 1. Mechanics get a bad rep as it is without idiotic things like this. Mechanics are supposed to be the expert trappers, not assassins and acrobats.

I don't have access to the Lamannia client at the moment so I can check the exact contents of the mechanic tree.

However, I do know that there is at least one tier 3 ability from the Mechanic tree worth taking, i.e. Wand & Scroll Mastery. I don't think that it's a bad thing that Mechanic has useful abilities at tier 1.

With the old enhancement system, you had one resource for your enhancements: APs.

With the new enhancement system, there are two kinds of resources: APs and trees (up to 3 class ones). On most characters, even for pure classes, there will be 4 or more class trees available.
Thus, even if an interesting ability is at tier 1 of an otherwise uninteresting tree, spending these points is still a grave investion, as you will lock yourself out from one of the other trees available.

This looks like mechanic int to damage for repeaters got pushed out from level 6 (Mechanic I on live) to level 12 (Mechanic II). If this is true, it is a huge disappointment (and a deal breaker for some builds). Not happy

Bah, this kills my beloved 6Rog/6Art/8Past Life repeater build before I was able to play it myself.

[Aashrym]

The bad news is that splashing Rogue may become more troublesome. I haven't played around much with Rogue splashes but they're very popular. Haste boost and Wand Mastery both take a tree and so taking both in a shallow splash is likely prohibitive, and Wand Mastery takes a heavier splash. It feels partly like Wand Mastery is up higher because once you can take one level of it, you can take all three right away - on Live the different tiers of Wand Mastery are gated by level, for example, and you can't get 75% until lvl 11, but you can get the first 30% at lvl 2.

That depends on what we splash it with and what we are splashing it for.

I can take haste boost on tempest and it's getting added back to a fighter tree so I wouldn't need that on rogue. Anyone who wants cheap wand and scroll get get that from a cleric splash. A rog 2 splash on a bard or cleric is still a fairly easy path to haste boost and both already have wand and scroll, or whatever.

If I'm just looking for skills and evasion I don't need to take any tree and those benefits with still be there, such as on a ranger or wizard.

I think it's more complicated and there are builds that will have to change or might not work but prohibitive is too strong a word because there new splashes that look appealing.