The Official Rogue Enhancements Discussion Thread!

[Truga]

Is it just me or did we lose 12 SA dmg?

Not really. We lost 12 damage but got 4d6, which is 14 damage, so we gained two.

[Cernunan]

sounds like pnp

Gee, not the 3.5 pnp I have played for decades, or anybody I have ever played with at any of the conventions.. We have moved away form such limits an awfully long time ago.

[Truga]

lol can you say pigeon-holed? this game is turning into 'magic-user needs a heal' faster than ash would defend turbine for this epic colossal failure they are pushing out.

Not really. My rogue now uses a shortsword, a kukri and a dagger depending on situation (celestia, EMG, agony) and all use dex for to hit and damage. I'm also proficient with needle for ranged damage and have 55 assassinate DC with just 34 INT. What's not to like?

[ahpook]

I think it is a bad implementation. even for Rangers.

Haste Boost was a core class ability not a prestige.
And moved from a level 1 ability to a tier 2 ability so 5 AP to even unlock it...

Since there are no core class enhancements anymore, it had to go somewhere. My experience on Lama just now was that unlocking and acquiring the ability from the acrobat tree was not an issue. I had to take something I wasn't thrilled with for my last point of unlocking but I had so many APs it wasn't a big deal.

Overall, it worked for me. I like the tree model and the power ramp up for rogues compared to what is currently live is very nice.

[Taojeff]

Quick impression of acrobat tree after testing 18/1/1 rogue/fvs/druid (did that to look at other trees).

Acrobat is a ton of fun. The clickies are very useful, not sure why other trees could not be like this, the damage is good and the cool downs are low enough. I especially liked the one that does 3[w] and 25% doublestrike for 10secs. The cool down is only 12s. I will be using that one as an opener quite a bit.

Vault is kind of silly, really just abundant step. I would be better with an animation like vaulting.

The granted abilities are all nice. This thing is going to be a beast in dreadnaught too with double trip (and it has + to trip in the tree).

I did not find any real bloat in this tree at all. Ended up spending 46 points in it without feeling like I was wasting any. I will have to see how this and henshin mystic go together. Not sure what would be my tier 3 between the two. I am thinking henshin mystic but no sure.

Overall impressed (with assassin tree also).

[UurlockYgmeov]

rogue mechanic now much more desirable!

Love time bomb (at least in theory)

and it seems that the hard cap of ranged attack speed of 32% is now lifted - just saw my RogWizArt with haste and haste boost do 57%

[Mercureal]

Is it just me or did we lose 12 SA dmg?

Sort of - I haven't been online yet, but it looks like only the Assassin Tree has extra SA damage, and it now gets +4d6 rather than +3d6. The extra 12 damage from SA Training that any Rogue could take is gone.

So, Assassin rogues lose an average of around 9 (rounded up) from their max bonus (from 3d6+12 to 4d6, or ~23 to 14). I'm not sure how viable taking the Assassin abilities is for rogues focusing in the other prestiges, but if it is, they potentially gain around 2 to their max possible SA bonus.

[Jay203]

get rid of the crappy ass Tanglefoot from rogue mechanic
shift the Improved Detection down to lvl 3 tier, and Targeting sights down to lvl 6 tier
and Expert Trapper down to lvl 12 tier
then for lvl 18 tier, add 50% chance to shoot extra projectile with crossbows (reduced effect for repeaters)


also, disconnect wand DC, wand mastery, and UMD

[nibel]

Mechanic Tree



Core abilities:

(1) Arbalester: Raise ranged sneak attack/PBS range by 5 meters, and give proficiency with great xbows
(3) Tanglefoot (2 AP): Alchemical Grenade area taack. Enemies on the acid puddle takes 4d6 acid damage every 2 seconds and are slowed (DC for each part is 10 + 1/2 rogue levels + int. Half damage or no slow). 30 secs cooldown.
(6) Improved Detection (2 AP): You can detect and search traps from 50% further. Gives proficiency with light repeaters
(12) Targeting Sights (2 AP): Uses Int for ranged/throw damage and proficiency with heavy repeaters.
(18) Expert Trapper (2 AP): Reduces the cooldown of all alchemical traps by 20%, and 3/rest if you critical fail while disarming, the box don't blow up on your face.
(20) Master Alchemist (2 AP): Passive +2 Dex/Int. You gain a "special potion" that for 60 seconds give you +1d6 to all stats and +2d6 to attack and damage. Cooldown: 3 minutes.

Tier 1:

Crossbow Training (2 AP): +1 to hit with xbows, +1 to damage with non-repaters xbows.
Faster Disabling (1 AP): You search, disable and OL animations are 33/66/100% faster (yes, third tier is instant)
Thunderstone (1 AP): Alchemical grenade. 4d6/6d6/8d6 sonic damage to target and dazes in the nearby area if they fail at a Fort save (DC 12/14/16 + half rogue levels + int)
Mechanics (1 AP): +1/2/3 to disable, OL, Repair, and saves against traps.
Awareness (1 AP): +1/2/3 to Listen, Search and Spot

Tier 2:

Crossbow Training (2 AP): Requires Crossbow Training I. +1 to hit with xbows, +1 to damage with repeaters. +2 damage with non-repaters.
Improved Traps (1 AP): +1/2/3 to DCs of your alchemical attacks and magical traps. Elemental traps that you place now have a DC of 65%/80%/100% of your disable skill instad of 50%.
Wand Heightening (1 AP): +1/2/3 to wand DC
Skill Boost (1 AP): +2/4/6 to skills for 20 secs.

Tier 3:

Crossbow Training (2 AP): Requires Cossbow Training II+1 to hit with xbows, +1 to damage with non-repaters xbows.
Wracking Shot/Strike (1 AP): Ranged/Melee attack. On hit, deal 1d6/3d6/5d6 damage to construct hit, reduces 10% fortification (stacks 5 times), and make them lose sneak attack immunity.
Ooze Flask (1 AP): Requires Thunderstone at same tier. Alchemical grenade. Single target. 4d8/8d8/12d8 acid damage and reduces his AC by 2/4/8 for 30 secs (Fort DC 10 + half rogue + int to negate AC debuff). Cooldown: 12 secs.
Wand and Scroll Mastery (1 AP): Requires Wand Heightening at same level. +25%/50%/75% of scroll/wand effectiveness.
Dexterity or Intelligence (2 AP): +1 to choosen stat.

Tier 4:

Crossbow Training (2 AP): Requires Crossbow Training III. +1 to hit with xbows, +1 to damage with repeaters. +2 damage with non-repaters.
Disable Construct (1 AP): Requires Wracking Shot/Strike at same rank. Target is dazed for 10/20/30 seconds. Daze is removed on damage. Using it on a target already affected by it will extend the duration. Cooldown: 25 secs.
Use Magical Device (1 AP): Requires Wand and Scroll Mastery of same rank. +1/2/3 UMD.
Dexterity or Intelligence (2 AP): +1 to choosen stat.

Tier 5:

Leg Shot (2 AP): Ranged Attack. On damage, enemy movement is reduced 50% for 10 seconds. Cooldown: 10 seconds.
Time Bomb (2 AP): Requires Ooze Flask at same tier. Alchemical trap. Creates a trap at your feet. After 10 seconds it explodes and deal 10/25/50 fire and 10/25/50 sonic damage per rogue level to all nearby enemies, and knock them to the ground. Reflex DC 10 + half rogue + int to reduce damage in half, Balance same DC to avoid knockdown. Cooldown: 2 minutes.

[Elaril]

I trust this means that at least a couple of new named Kukri's are coming in the expansion.

[karl_k0ch]

It's still tier 2 acrobat. Wand and scroll mastery is tier 3 mechanic.

At least for my pure halfling, this is not a restriction - there are no other trees available. For other race/class combinations, there are more options, i.e. choices.

Interestingly enough, while the three tree limit creates restrictions, it makes the decisions more archetypical, i.e. you have to decide between Versatility from Mechanic vs. more damage from, say, Kensai.

I'm probably repeating myself: Putting tasty enhancements (eg haste boost, W&S Mastery) into not-so-popular trees makes the said trees more of a consideration. This is a good thing because choice is good, and while from a power gamer POV, I'd like to have access to all the powerful rogue enhancements at once and the kensei tree, I think that creating this kind of dichotomy is healthy for a diversity of efficient character builds.

[ddobard1]

its nice that rogue could use dex instead of str to hit and damage IMHO

[Nibor]

So first I tried to recreate my Halfling dex-based assassin 20 rogue on the new enhancements as closely as possible.
Aside from the missing sneak attack damage - normally assassin PrE grants +3d6 and the Sneak Attack Training grants +12, and is a prerequisite for the PrE (bug report filed) - I was able to fully replicate my enhancements, and actually improve on them some. It required spreading points out into all 3 trees, but there were enough points to go around. I got a 3rd Dex point from the Mechanic tree, and if I was willing to take 20% less hate diversion or 10% less on my haste boost I could even take a 4th Dex point.

Of course, I probably wouldn't build it that way now; I'd want more of the top end enhancements to dagger/kukri crits and would have to cut back somewhere. Next step is to plan out a new build. I'm already a little sad that Rebellion is a short sword and won't play nice with all the extra goodies you get from assassin tree, and once things are finalized I'll probably have to run the numbers to compare Rebellion and Agony.

The bad news is that splashing Rogue may become more troublesome. I haven't played around much with Rogue splashes but they're very popular. Haste boost and Wand Mastery both take a tree and so taking both in a shallow splash is likely prohibitive, and Wand Mastery takes a heavier splash. It feels partly like Wand Mastery is up higher because once you can take one level of it, you can take all three right away - on Live the different tiers of Wand Mastery are gated by level, for example, and you can't get 75% until lvl 11, but you can get the first 30% at lvl 2.

I do feel like they filled out Mechanic well with a lot of desirable features that may actually pull people in.

I don't see Cheat Death as a capstone anywhere but I'm not sure it was all that desirable anyways. I would certainly never have taken it in spite of how much I wanted the Dex, so I'm not bug reporting it. If someone misses it, though, bug it.

[HalfORCastrator]

Sort of - I haven't been online yet, but it looks like only the Assassin Tree has extra SA damage, and it now gets +4d6 rather than +3d6. The extra 12 damage from SA Training that any Rogue could take is gone.

So, Assassin rogues lose an average of around 9 (rounded up) from their max bonus (from 3d6+12 to 4d6, or ~23 to 14). I'm not sure how viable taking the Assassin abilities is for rogues focusing in the other prestiges, but if it is, they potentially gain around 2 to their max possible SA bonus.

Yeah, just noticed it was 4d6 throughout tiers instead of 3d6, so 8.5 sa dmg loss for assassins.

Also, the biggest thing is losing haste boost. (or was it put into another tree? Either way, huge ap or dps loss)

@Nibor: Is Venomed Blades allowed to stack with other stances, like Power Attack, etc?



OMFG, just checked Mechanic tree! Instant disabling/searching!

[nibel]

Acrobat Tree



Core:

(1) Acrobat: Use dex to hit with staffs.
(3) Stick Fighting (2 AP): Use dex to damage with staffs.
(6) Tumbler (2 AP): You can tumble through enemies.
(12) Kip Up (2 AP): Immunity to knockdown and slippery surfaces.
(18) Cartwheel Charge (2 AP): After tumbling you gain a +2 morale bonus to Str and Dex for 6 seconds.
(20) Followthrough (2 AP): Passive +2 Str/Dex. After tumbling, for 6 seconds your staff attacks hit two targets per swing instead of one. On vorpal, your target is knocked down.

Tier 1:

Staff Training (2 AP): +1 hit/damage with staffs.
Acrobatic (1 AP): +1/2/3 to Balance, Jump and Tumble. +5%/10%/15% staff attack speed.
Charming (1 AP): +1/2/3 Bluff, Diplomacy, Haggle and Intimidate
Sly Flourish (1 AP): Melee Attack. +0.5/1/1.5 [W] damage with a +1/2/3 crit threat range, and reduces your threat by 100/200/300. On sneak: Intelligent target also gains -1 to balance, Reflex and Will for 20 seconds (stacks 5 times). Cooldown: 12 secs.
Faster Sneaking (1 AP): +20%/35%/50% sneaking speed.

Tier 2:

Staff Training (2 AP): Requires Staff Training I. +1 to hit and +2 damage with staffs.
Trip Focus (1 AP): +1/2/3 to Trip DC
Subtlety (1 AP): -20%/30%/40% threat generation (non-cumulative with other Subtlety enhancements)
Quick Strike (2 AP): Melee Quarterstaff Attack. +1/2/3[W] damage. You gain a 5%/15%/25% morale bonus to doublestrike for 10 seconds. Cooldown: 18/15/12 secs.
Haste Boost (2 AP): +10%/20%/30% attack speed for 20 seconds.

Tier 3:

Staff Training (2 AP): Requires Staff Training II. +1 hit/damage with staffs.
Improved Glancing Blows (1 AP): 2%/4%/6% more chances to proc secondary weapon effects on glancing blows.
Shadow Dodge (1 AP): Toggle: +1/2/3 Dodge and Dex, -10%/20%/30% Fortification.
Sweeping Strikes (2 AP): Requires Quick Strike at the same rank. Melee Quarterstaff Trip Attack. +1/2/3[W] damage to all nearby enemies and trips them (Balance DC 10 + half rogue + Dex). Cooldown: 30/25/20 secs.
Strength or Dexterity (2 AP): +1 to choosen stat.

Tier 4:

Staff Training (2 AP): Requires Staff Training III. +1 to hit and +2 damage with staffs.
Improved Defensive Roll (1 AP): Requires Defensive Roll. Defensive Roll now triggers at 30%/40%/50% or below health, and reduces damage to 40%/30%/20% when successful.
No Mercy (1 AP): You deal 10%/20%/30% more damage to helpless opponents.
Staff Lunge (2 AP): Requires Sweeping Strikes at same rank. Melee Quarterstaff attack: +2/3/4[W] damage as you dive through enemies in a line. Cooldown: 30/25/20 secs.

Tier 5:

Staff Specializtion (2 AP): +1 competence bonus to crit threat range and multiplier with staffs.
Vault (2 AP): Wings. Requires a staff equipped. Cooldown: 15 seconds

[SableShadow]

@Nibor: Is Venomed Blades allowed to stack with other stances, like Power Attack, etc?

I have it on right next to Precision; haven't stepped into a quest yet, tho.

[Nibor]

Yeah, just noticed it was 4d6 throughout tiers instead of 3d6, so 8.5 sa dmg loss for assassins.

Also, the biggest thing is losing haste boost. (or was it put into another tree? Either way, huge ap or dps loss)

@Nibor: Is Venomed Blades allowed to stack with other stances, like Power Attack, etc?



OMFG, just checked Mechanic tree! Instant disabling/searching!

No idea on how the stances stack. If it stacks with Precision/PA, then it's pretty good and I'll probably take it over damage boost. If it doesn't stack, it's pretty well trash.

Haste boost is in Acrobat tree. You need to spend 5 pts in tier 1 first to unlock it, then 6 points to get it maxed. Depending on where you were stopping on haste boost before, this is a poor/decent/good deal. Subtle Backstabbing - the anti-hate enhancements - are also over in acrobat at the same tier. If you want both, the 5 points to get to both is not as expensive, but I'm not sure how much non-rogues used subtle backstabbing.

[GoldyGopher]

As a player with several multi-class characters, to say I am disappointed is an understatement.

It goes beyond disappointment, as it appears that Turbine went out of their way to ummm make multi-classing unworkable. And I am not just talking my two level splash builds, but my two builds with six levels of rouge, there is nothing for me to spend AP points on at the low levels.

[FuzzyDuck81]

Loving the look of the acrobat tree, will be interesting to see how the monk trees synergise with it

[nibel]

@Nibor: Is Venomed Blades allowed to stack with other stances, like Power Attack, etc?

Can't say about PA (my rogue don't have it), but it worked at the same time with Precision.