The Official Rogue Enhancements Discussion Thread!

[hit_fido]

Is this old news?

I do not like this change.

[Lauf]

I was trying to build an assassin, and to my surprise could not find an equivalent to the melee threat reductions as I know them.
later I discovered they still exist, but are in the 2nd tier of the acrobat tree, namely Subtlety.

this leads me to what I would assume is an obvious question, why is threat reduction part of the acrobat tree and not the assassin's?

aside from the illogical placing, this also poses difficulty for me in incorporating it into several builds I had in mind, especially because it is a tier 2 and requires a noticeable AP investment to unlock. making its illogical placement even more painful.

do give it a 2nd thought, please.

[oradafu]

I was trying to build an assassin, and to my surprise could not find an equivalent to the melee threat reductions as I know them.
later I discovered they still exist, but are in the 2nd tier of the acrobat tree, namely Subtlety.

this leads me to what I would assume is an obvious question, why is threat reduction part of the acrobat tree and not the assassin's?

aside from the illogical placing, this also poses difficulty for me in incorporating it into several builds I had in mind, especially because it is a tier 2 and requires a noticeable AP investment to unlock. making its illogical placement even more painful.

do give it a 2nd thought, please.

To get Subtlety, it's not that big of an investment. It's 2 levels of Rogue and 5 AP to access it it, plus the AP for Subtlety. I'd suggest that buying Faster Sneaking (if you're into the Assassin thing) and probably a few ranks in Sly Flourish and you're problems solved.

[Lauf]

To get Subtlety, it's not that big of an investment. It's 2 levels of Rogue and 5 AP to access it it, plus the AP for Subtlety. I'd suggest that buying Faster Sneaking (if you're into the Assassin thing) and probably a few ranks in Sly Flourish and you're problems solved.

first of all thank you for your advice.

however, the reason I posted in this thread was not so much for a solution for a specific build, but rather to point out a flaw in the placement of an enhancement, which I believe should be associated with the assassin tree and not the acrobat. but since you've been kind enough to offer advice, I should note that I enjoy heavily multiclassed builds, and sadly my would be rogue splashes are spread fairly thin, and can not afford an extra 5 AP on top of the actual cost of the enhancement; and to be honest, they will not benefit from faster sneaking either, even if I had the AP to burn.

but back to the actual subject - I have posted here because I see no reason behind or for subtlety being in the acrobat tree over the assassin's.
to make my case you need only look at the assassin prestige pre-requisites today, where you are forced to take up subtlety if you want to be an assassin. and that, to me at least, makes sense. you're an assassin, you get to do a lot more sneak attack damage, aggro reduction seems to be obligatory.

[MalarKan]

From Acrobat tree, how it was back when enhancements were Alpha in June:

"Tier 4:

Improved Defensive Roll (3 Ranks) (Requires: Defensive Roll) Defensive Roll now triggers at 30/40/50% or below health and reduces damage to 40/30/20% when successful."

And this is how i saw it yesterday in Lamania:

"Improved Defensive Roll (3 Ranks) (Requires: Defensive Roll) Defensive Roll now triggers at 30/40/50% or below health."

The damage reduction was reason enough to resurrect "Defensive Roll" and make rogues take that feat, and i was so excited that i was really going to take that feat ... but since i loged on Lamania yesterday and noticed how you got rid of the damage reduction i guess im less excited about it... disapointed even lol...

Also, "Shadow dodge" is still extremely painful and not worth taking (+3 dex and +2% dodge for -30% fort??? thats excessive)

Still no 20% staff alacrity, and acrobat fast movement is still missing... completely gone... when it was Kip-up and fast movement what gave Acrobats enough reason to be acrobats... im stil disapointed of those not being as core abilities... and i still think that we should only access to one tree's core abilities... not really excited of full lich/archmages or Assasins able to take kip-up... or at least just let player go over 3 core abilities in only 1 prestige tree per class

..

[Hajutze]

Wait wait wait, they got rid of the damage reduction of Def Roll ? There goes my reason for playing DDO again ... off I go for the next 2 years.

[MalarKan]

Wait wait wait, they got rid of the damage reduction of Def Roll ? There goes my reason for playing DDO again ... off I go for the next 2 years.

lol

just think of all those builds with just 13 rogue levels, they only take Opportunist and Improved evasion... making Defensive roll actually useful opens another little window for builds versatility... which is the whole point with this enhancements pass thing. Probably im just the only one that considered taking defensive roll ... i woudl definetly consider a chance of reducing to 20% the damage of an epic elite mob...but meh, i guess we wont need to consider that idea anymore

[Steelstar]

The damage reduction was reason enough to resurrect "Defensive Roll" and make rogues take that feat, and i was so excited that i was really going to take that feat ... but since i loged on Lamania yesterday and noticed how you got rid of the damage reduction i guess im less excited about it... disapointed even lol...

Increasing both the threshold and damage reduction together in this Enhancement had the unfortunate side effect of making certain builds nearly invulnerable to all damage. The change was an unfortunate necessity, in this case.

[MalarKan]

Increasing both the threshold and damage reduction together in this Enhancement had the unfortunate side effect of making certain builds nearly invulnerable to all damage. The change was an unfortunate necessity, in this case.

i wish there wouldnt have been the necesity of completely removing it. Truly unfortunate indeed

Thanks for a quick response

[soloist12]

Interestingly enough, the new subtlety is not a toggle, it's -40% threat permanently passive.

[oradafu]

Increasing both the threshold and damage reduction together in this Enhancement had the unfortunate side effect of making certain builds nearly invulnerable to all damage. The change was an unfortunate necessity, in this case.

So adjusting the "reduced damage to 40/30/20%" to a more reasonable number wasn't even considered? Would 25/20/15% be too much? How about 15/10/5%? Because certain builds (let me guess, multiclass, right?) get overpowered, the pure class gets kneecapped. This is pretty much a re-occuring problem with alot of the decisions about the enhancements in the pass for all classes.

Then to boot, the Devs discourage pure builds by making weak capstones. They certainly aren't the "equal to evasion". And they are alot further away from the multiple options when multiclasses have 6 trees to work with and the other goodies for dipping into more than one class.

The Devs need to take time and look at how the nerfing hurts Pure classes when they see something overpowered by multiclassing. Boosting to Core Abilities and Capstones is one way, but the Devs have gone out of their way to make both of those weaker than previously and situational. Core Abilities and Capstones shouldn't be situational. Especially when enhancements keep getting weakened because of multiclassing.

[Hajutze]

So adjusting the "reduced damage to 40/30/20%" to a more reasonable number wasn't even considered? Would 25/20/15% be too much? How about 15/10/5%? Because certain builds (let me guess, multiclass, right?) get overpowered, the pure class gets kneecapped. This is pretty much a re-occuring problem with alot of the decisions about the enhancements in the pass for all classes.

actually 15% and 5% are way too much ... especially 5% means that you'll be getting 4 times less damage than 20%.

[Steelstar]

(let me guess, multiclass, right?)

The most effective use of it we saw was on a pure Rogue, though in theory you could achieve a slightly weaker version on a multiclass build.

[Hajutze]

The most effective use of it we saw was on a pure Rogue, though in theory you could achieve a slightly weaker version on a multiclass build.

I honestly see no way for a pure rogue to achieve 100 reflex save (and without that the defensive roll is highly luck dependent)

[oradafu]

actually 15% and 5% are way too much ... especially 5% means that you'll be getting 4 times less damage than 20%.

Poorly phrased, I admit but I'm sure you understood that I was talking about increasing the amount of damage that the player received without removing the damage reduction completely.

[oradafu]

The most effective use of it we saw was on a pure Rogue, though in theory you could achieve a slightly weaker version on a multiclass build.

Are then going to remove the Fort penalty for Shadow Dodge? It seemed to me the Damage Reduction in Defensive Roll would help counteract the -30% Fort for that ability. Removing one completely while keeping the other seems a bit harsh.

[Hajutze]

Poorly phrased, I admit but I'm sure you understood that I was talking about increasing the amount of damage that the player received without removing the damage reduction completely.

Oh yeah sorry, didn't mean to be rude.

I am all for, for example:
rank 1 - same (50% reduction)
rank 2 - 55% (45% by their numbers, instead of 30%)
rank 3 - 60% (40% by their numbers instead of 20%)

[Qezuzu]

So adjusting the "reduced damage to 40/30/20%" to a more reasonable number wasn't even considered? Would 25/20/15% be too much? How about 15/10/5%? Because certain builds (let me guess, multiclass, right?) get overpowered, the pure class gets kneecapped. This is pretty much a re-occuring problem with alot of the decisions about the enhancements in the pass for all classes.

Then to boot, the Devs discourage pure builds by making weak capstones. They certainly aren't the "equal to evasion". And they are alot further away from the multiple options when multiclasses have 6 trees to work with and the other goodies for dipping into more than one class.

The Devs need to take time and look at how the nerfing hurts Pure classes when they see something overpowered by multiclassing. Boosting to Core Abilities and Capstones is one way, but the Devs have gone out of their way to make both of those weaker than previously and situational. Core Abilities and Capstones shouldn't be situational. Especially when enhancements keep getting weakened because of multiclassing.

I know that I can get my Rogue to 100 PRR, which is 40% damage reduction (60% taken). 80% damage reduction from Tier 3 would be .6 * .2, or only taking 12% of damage (e.g. a hit that does 400 damage would only do 48). This is before other defenses, like DR, AC, Conceal, Incorporeal, etc.

It was very overpowered, but now they've nerfed it back into uselessness.

[MalarKan]

The most effective use of it we saw was on a pure Rogue, though in theory you could achieve a slightly weaker version on a multiclass build.

hummm i thought that a rogue monk with earth stance would be getting the said nearly damage invulnerability...


i just think that it would have been better off by just leave as it was and making it NOT stack with PRR...

OR... change the feat itself it to a PRR bonus with a reflex save chance for non-AoE spells... making the PRR bonus high enough to not suit "overpowered standards" and depending on that it would stack or not with the character's PRR... something like:

Defensive Roll: When at low health, occasionally rogues can narrowly escape brushes with death. If you are at below 20% of your hitpoint maximum, each time you are struck with an attack there is a percentage chance equal to your Reflex save that the attack does half main damage (50% dmg thats arround 150 PRR), and its special effects are negated (as if you were blocking).

Improved Defensive Roll: (3 Ranks) (Requires: Defensive Roll) - Defensive Roll now triggers at 30/40/50% or below health and grants 200/250/300 PRR when successful. (in that case, the PRR bonuses shouldnt stack... and im just making up numbers by the way, i just know that 140 prr is a 49,08% reduction and 150 is 50,61%)

Ah well... cheers all ^^

PS: any chance you would look into increasing Shadow Dodge's bonuses? or decreasing the fort penalty... or fusing Improved defensive roll with Shadow Dodge hehe... Peace

[Deathdefy]

Thunderstone still has a DC of 0 and the dojo kobolds are consistently saving 95% of the time.

Have bugged it, but thought yelling about it here might help too. Seems like a really fun skill potentially, but useless at the moment.