The Official Rogue Enhancements Discussion Thread!

[Candela90]

making int mod to xbow damage obtained at lvl 12 for a mech while both assassin and acrobat can get theirs WAY EARLIER is really uncalled for

ps. bring back repair construct
make that ability worth using rather than just tossing it out (it's lazy practice)

Well ok this is truth.
I honestly have problems making notice about changes in mechanic - cause I always been acrobat or assassin .
But if those 2 get dex to dmg and to hit at core 1-2 abilities, then mechanic should get his int to dmg lower too.

[oradafu]

making int mod to xbow damage obtained at lvl 12 for a mech while both assassin and acrobat can get theirs WAY EARLIER is really uncalled for

ps. bring back repair construct
make that ability worth using rather than just tossing it out (it's lazy practice)

Well ok this is truth.
I honestly have problems making notice about changes in mechanic - cause I always been acrobat or assassin .
But if those 2 get dex to dmg and to hit at core 1-2 abilities, then mechanic should get his int to dmg lower too.

I think this may actually be a case of the Devs listening to players (at least prior to the new enhancement changes) about giving away too many goodies with a minor splash of rogue. One of the complaints that is usually brought up over the years is that a wiz18/rog2 can do everything or better than a pure rogue. This combined with Artificers splashing Rogue negates the spells Insightful Strikes and Insightful Damage. This maybe one of the few times that the Devs have protected a Prestige from a minor splash by moving an useful ability up to these builds, especially since splashing two levels of any class currently doesn't hurt any classes since the capstones stink.

With all that said, level 12 is way too high. Sticking it back down to level 6 should be fine, because if a Wizard or Arti is splashing that many levels, they are committed to doing a less "easy to make" powerful build.

[Jay203]

it's not like we're asking for the mechanic int mod to xbow damage to stack with insightful
if that's the case, i'm fine with it being at lvl 12, but it isn't so bring it back down

[vengfarga]

What? What? What? You mean you now ACTUALLY have to be a Rogue to get the best bit out of Mechanic? However will that work?

/wipes 'splash' off utility vest whilst disabling trap from inside the trap. ;p

[Candela90]

I think this may actually be a case of the Devs listening to players (at least prior to the new enhancement changes) about giving away too many goodies with a minor splash of rogue. One of the complaints that is usually brought up over the years is that a wiz18/rog2 can do everything or better than a pure rogue. This combined with Artificers splashing Rogue negates the spells Insightful Strikes and Insightful Damage. This maybe one of the few times that the Devs have protected a Prestige from a minor splash by moving an useful ability up to these builds, especially since splashing two levels of any class currently doesn't hurt any classes since the capstones stink.

With all that said, level 12 is way too high. Sticking it back down to level 6 should be fine, because if a Wizard or Arti is splashing that many levels, they are committed to doing a less "easy to make" powerful build.

Yeah thats also the problem. BUT:
1) If devs put it higher in the tree - then dex/int rogues are scewed for many low lvls - and it shouldnt be that way.
2) If they put it all like in assassin/acrobat tree then lvl 2 splashed are gaining too much.
Them aybe put it as lvl 6 ability? 6 lvls is deep enough splash.
Hard to make up something that will not screw low lvl pure rogues but wont make splashes OP.

[SiliconShadow]

I am having a problem with my 12 Ranger / 6 Rogue / 2 Fighter build with this update.

I built him for a str based over sized twf rogue with as much off hand proc as I could get, great DPS on live 110~140 on the first number and about 50 sneak attack damage great stuff.

But I can no longer take mechanic like I can on live, so my switching from a many shot long bow to a light repeater is stuffed at the moment, is there a new pre-requisite I missed?

Apart from that if I do go full DPS lines Tempest/Assassin/Kensei I net 2d6 more sneak attack +9 seeker (18 seeker total including gear!) and +10 base damage with 5% more double strike and from 16% dodge before up to capped 23% to armour. This is insane and I ripped through mobs even on epic elite.

But I lost 5 Disable device in this change, going to have to use the utility vest or pick up some better disabling bracers (+17 currently) and an int tome/+8 int item to make up for it.

Pure rogue assassins still have a far superior sneak attack and assassinate, but I think this opens up for larger splash flavour builds like mine. Can still disable all the traps in-game just have to balance it a bit more.

+Loads of DPS -Skills but this can be made up with items (Currently use no int item and a +17 disable device item for 60 disable device unbuffed on lammania, 65 on live)

[Jay203]

What? What? What? You mean you now ACTUALLY have to be a Rogue to get the best bit out of Mechanic? However will that work?

/wipes 'splash' off utility vest whilst disabling trap from inside the trap. ;p

... you've no idea what you're talking about

[Wizza]

EDIT: My bad

And you better give us another +Assassinate DC Dager (or Kukri if you implement my above suggestion). My Epic Midnight greetings is FRIGGIN OLD AND USELESS.

[oradafu]

I just don't understand why the Assassin Tier 5 ability gives +1 Critical Threat Range ONLY to daggers and not kukris.

You are basically forcing us with one type of weapon FOREVER. This should be Daggers AND Kukris, like the whole tree.

And you better give us another +Assassinate DC Dager (or Kukri if you implement my above suggestion). My Epic Midnight greetings is FRIGGIN OLD AND USELESS.

My guess for this would be so that Daggers are equal to Kurkis at least via the Crit Range. Since Kurkis have a 18-20/x2 and Daggers have a 19-20/x2, giving the bonus to Daggers would make them equal. By doing this, the Devs are not tilting the balance to a Slashing Assassin over a Piercing Rogue.

With that all said, there needs to be more items that increase Assassinate DC. And the first one needs to be a Dagger since the Kurki is already covered.

[Wizza]

My guess for this would be so that Daggers are equal to Kurkis at least via the Crit Range. Since Kurkis have a 18-20/x2 and Daggers have a 19-20/x2, giving the bonus to Daggers would make them equal. By doing this, the Devs are not tilting the balance to a Slashing Assassin over a Piercing Rogue.

With that all said, there needs to be more items that increase Assassinate DC. And the first one needs to be a Dagger since the Kurki is already covered.

This makes sense. They will both have 18-20/x3. I guess what they are doing with this is the opposite of what I thought they were doing.

Actually I would like +Assassinate DC on an Item. Like every single other Tactic or Spell focus or anything in game.

[Dreppo]

Well ok this is truth.
I honestly have problems making notice about changes in mechanic - cause I always been acrobat or assassin .
But if those 2 get dex to dmg and to hit at core 1-2 abilities, then mechanic should get his int to dmg lower too.

There's a fundamental difference between mechanic INT to damage and the acrobat/assassins DEX to damage, which makes the mechanic INT to damage much more powerful and justifies it being at a higher level.

The acrobat/assassin DEX to damage lets you use DEX to damage instead of STR. This is just giving you the flexibility to go one of two directions with your build (STR _or_ DEX). There's always some stat that gets used for damage.

The mechanic INT to damage is a straight bonus to damage -- it adds your INT bonus to damage. Remember that crossbows don't normally use any stat for damage. That equates to a major boost to crossbow damage, not merely flexibility. This is surely one of the most powerful abilities mechanics get (I would argue the most powerful -- what other mechanic ability would you say is better?). Therefore it makes sense to me that this ability shouldn't be available with a 1-3 level rogue splash.

[Jay203]

There's a fundamental difference between mechanic INT to damage and the acrobat/assassins DEX to damage, which makes the mechanic INT to damage much more powerful and justifies it being at a higher level.

The acrobat/assassin DEX to damage lets you use DEX to damage instead of STR. This is just giving you the flexibility to go one of two directions with your build (STR _or_ DEX). There's always some stat that gets used for damage.

The mechanic INT to damage is a straight bonus to damage -- it adds your INT bonus to damage. Remember that crossbows don't normally use any stat for damage. That equates to a major boost to crossbow damage, not merely flexibility. This is surely one of the most powerful abilities mechanics get (I would argue the most powerful -- what other mechanic ability would you say is better?). Therefore it makes sense to me that this ability shouldn't be available with a 1-3 level rogue splash.

first of all, the fact that the only thing good about mechanic is that it gives Int mod to damage is a huge problem to begin with
secondly, it never "only took a splash of rogue" to acquire it, 6 levels is a pretty heavy investment in class levels, it also takes much investment into int in order to gain a large benefit from it, aside from the investment into Dex in order to hit stuff... while both acrobat and assassin allows you to invest into a single stat for both to hit and damage, with 3 lvls of rogue splash... as opposed to mechanic's 12 levels of heavy investment

[UurlockYgmeov]

love it - but should rather be a class feature rather than an enhancement.

so as you increase in level as a rogue you should gain faster sneaking (up to and including 100% normal movement speed (permanent sneaking) at level 20)

Should not be allowed any other way.

[Wipey]

So, you rogue folks, how high Assasinate are you able to get ?
64 DC on fresh 32 point toon copied to Lama ( human, Shadowdancer with eMG, no Yugo or rare pots/buffs, 16 or 17 starting int+5 tome ).

[Wizza]

So, you rogue folks, how high Assasinate are you able to get ?
64 DC on fresh 32 point toon copied to Lama ( human, Shadowdancer with eMG, no Yugo or rare pots/buffs, 16 or 17 starting int+5 tome ).

Is this WITH or WITHOUT the Tier 5 Assassinate DC?

I can't remember exactly my DC but I should be able to get to 60 fairly easily with the buff from the Assassin tree.

Given the +11 Int item I will be able to reach 62, more or less.

[bloodnose13]

love it - but should rather be a class feature rather than an enhancement.

so as you increase in level as a rogue you should gain faster sneaking (up to and including 100% normal movement speed (permanent sneaking) at level 20)

Should not be allowed any other way.

so you mean something like monks get for running speed, just only for sneaking?

that would be nice, since assasins are supposed to use sneak more than any other rogue, it would be very convenient.

[Dreppo]

secondly, it never "only took a splash of rogue" to acquire it

I was responding to Kayla93's statement "But if those 2 [acrobat, assassion] get dex to dmg and to hit at core 1-2 abilities, then mechanic should get his int to dmg lower too." If mechanic got this ability at core 1-2, then that would be 1-3 rogue levels (core 1 = level 1 rogue, core 2 = level 3 rogue). I think the required rogue level for mechanic's INT to damage is fine as it is now on Lam and shouldn't be lowered.

[Wipey]

Is this WITH or WITHOUT the Tier 5 Assassinate DC?

Most likely with that +5 buff when sneaking, Not really a rogue person just wanted to check new stuff and surprised with ~ 65 DCs.

[Jay203]

I was responding to Kayla93's statement "But if those 2 [acrobat, assassion] get dex to dmg and to hit at core 1-2 abilities, then mechanic should get his int to dmg lower too." If mechanic got this ability at core 1-2, then that would be 1-3 rogue levels (core 1 = level 1 rogue, core 2 = level 3 rogue). I think the required rogue level for mechanic's INT to damage is fine as it is now on Lam and shouldn't be lowered.

no, it's not fine as it is in Lamania
pushing it all the way back to rogue 12 is just ridiculous and uncalled for
if it stacks with insightful damage, then requiring 12 rogue levels might be justified
however, seeing how on live right now it requires rogue 6, on top of that Mechanic 1 provided more benefits than just int mod to xbow damage; it needs to be brought down to rogue 6 core and improve the other cores for mechanic ('cuase atm most of the SUCK, big time)
or they should move the dex to damage for assassins and acrobats up to lvl 12 as well.

[UurlockYgmeov]

so you mean something like monks get for running speed, just only for sneaking?

that would be nice, since assasins are supposed to use sneak more than any other rogue, it would be very convenient.

Yes.