Build idea, feedback requested. (Save my healer!)

[danotmano1998]

Preface:

I find myself playing my dwarf cleric (20) a lot, yet hardly ever enjoy playing him. (Seems we always need a healer!!)
He was built to be a casting cleric. The problem is that without past lives and serious investment into spell pen and DC's... He.. well.. To put it bluntly, sucks. I don't find playing him much fun at all. Now I've seen lots of folks absolutely destroy things with their Casting Clerics. But as for me personally? Not so much. If I wanted to nuke, I would log on to my sorceror or wizard. Then I got some new items, including a CiTW shortsword an EE GH Dwarven Waraxe, and a Dueregar Dwarven Waraxe..

**Edited and updated thanks to advice given here**


Build Musts:
Dwarf
Fully Heal Capable. 17 cleric, mass heals + aura
Full Two Weapon Fighting line. (I know there's a good argument for Two Handed, but I have the gear already for the TWF, and plenty of THF characters already.)
Cleave & Great Cleave. (These are just too much fun NOT to have on a melee IMO)


I started thinking about ways to make this build more fun for me to play. This is what I have come up with so far.

The Dwarven massochist. (Yes, I HAVE to go dwarf considering I want to lesser ressurect. I have no intention of ever going for past lives on this guy, he's done.)

Build
Lawful Good Dwarf
2 Fighter/17 Cleric/1 Wizard

32 point build:
Str - 16 (24) +1 minimum tome for feat qualifiers in epic levels, I have a +2.
Dex- 15 (17) ***Need +2 tome at level 7 for the Two Weapon feats***
Con- 14 (16)
Intel- 10
Wis- 12 (14)
Cha- 10 (12)

All level up points go into Strength!

Level progression:
1. Ftr
2-13 Cleric (Stop when you get your Radiant Servant II pre)
14. Ftr
15-19 Cleric
20. Wizard

Feats:
1 (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack
1 Two Weapon Fighting
3 Cleave
6 Empower Healing Spell
9 Improved Two Weapon Fighting
12 Quicken Spell
14 (Fighter Bonus) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
15 Maximize Spell
18 Improved Critical Slashing
20 (Wizard Bonus) Empower Spell
21 Great Cleave
24 Overwhelming Critical


Enhancements:
Fighter Haste Boost I
Cleric Radiant Servant II
Dwarven Axe Attack I
Dwarven Axe Damage I
Dwarven Constitution II
Wizard Energy of the Scholar I
Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Improved Heal II
Cleric Prayer of Smiting III
Cleric Prayer of Life III
Cleric Prayer of Incredible Smiting III
Cleric Prayer of Incredible Life II
Force Manipulation I
Cleric Smiting IV
Cleric Life Magic IV
Cleric Charisma II
Fighter Strength I
Cleric Wisdom II
Cleric Divine Vitality I
Cleric Improved Turning I
Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery I



Thoughts:
The one wizard level : Extra 40 spell power to my blade barriers, more spell points, free empower feat. And hey, what cleric DOESN'T want jump?
The 2 Fighter is for the feats, plus the haste boost.

The Cleric portion of this build... I can heal with 90% of the efficacy I had before. The only loss is 3 caster levels of cleric. Which in the long run, doesn't amount to much. No, I won't be able to bust anyones spell resistance or hit no fail DC's.. That's a given. Plus I NEVER seem to have enough spell points to cast offensively and keep party healing going. Why not actually do some decent damage and throw in some melee clickies? Throw in some divine punishments and a few bladebarriers for non-evasion types and hey, presto!

So.. I'm putting this up to get some feedback as to what could be improved upon!
Thanks in advance for reading.


(Yes, I know the new enhancement pass is coming and will invalidate this. But until then, I want to have fun playing this guy.)

[Khatzhas]

If you don't enjoy playing him as a healer, don't play him as a healer. Someone else will (or at least should) take up that role occasionally.

The splashes don't just lose you casting levels. They also lose you spell slots. Make sure that you will still be able to slot the spells you want to be able to cast.

I'm guessing that you are aware that TWF really does not work well with cleave/great cleave? Would you consider going for another clicky combat feat like Stunning Blow instead?

One level of sorceror does not get you many extra spell points. How much do you actually use your blade barriers in a group situation? (Also bear in mind that the save is wisdom-based and evasion will negate any BB damage.)

What kind of armour would you wear? Could you get away with non-metal? You could consider a one-level Druid splash if you have access to that. That would get you Jump, Ram's might, Shillelagh, and enhancements boosting light, fire spells and possibly also more healing spellpower.
(You could probably just take off the armour to cast the buffs then put it back on actually if it is metal.) Shillelagh won't help with the dwarven axes unfortunately I think.

You have levels of Fighter. You shouldn't need Masters touch.

[unbongwah]

Master's Touch is pointless on a ftr splash; Force enh I, OTOH, is not, although with relatively low WIS it's questionable how useful BB will be. But why not a wiz splash instead for an extra metamagic like Empower?

Personally I would start 16 / 15 / 18 / 8 / 12 / 6; the extra TUs from CHA 12 aren't worth the stat pts, IMHO, and with higher base CON you don't need the racial CON. You don't list your epic feats; I would add IC:Slash & OC.

Alternatively, did you consider going S&B w/Shield Mastery feats? Lower DPS, but you can lower DEX and gain PRR.

[danotmano1998]

If you don't enjoy playing him as a healer, don't play him as a healer. Someone else will (or at least should) take up that role occasionally.

I don't enjoy playing him as a caster specc'd healer.

The splashes don't just lose you casting levels. They also lose you spell slots. Make sure that you will still be able to slot the spells you want to be able to cast..

Yep, but that bothers me not at all.

I'm guessing that you are aware that TWF really does not work well with cleave/great cleave? Would you consider going for another clicky combat feat like Stunning Blow instead?

Actually no. I'm pretty new to melee builds, so this is good info. Thanks for the tip. I was wondering how well the twf and cleaving would go together.

One level of sorceror does not get you many extra spell points. How much do you actually use your blade barriers in a group situation? (Also bear in mind that the save is wisdom-based and evasion will negate any BB damage.)

True, but 1 more level of cleric doesn't do a whole lot for me either. My DC's will suck on all my spells, I have no problem with that. Blade Barriers would be strictly for non-evasion mobs. (And for use when soloing from time to time.) The sorc level is the piece of the puzzle I could do with or without based on what it brings. I can't see any strong reason for any particular class, so I opted for sorc.

Question: One level of sorc.. Since sorcerors get double bonus spell points from items, would this build get that benefit? Or partial? Or not at all?

What kind of armour would you wear? Could you get away with non-metal? You could consider a one-level Druid splash if you have access to that. That would get you Jump, Ram's might, Shillelagh, and enhancements boosting light, fire spells and possibly also more healing spellpower..)
(You could probably just take off the armour to cast the buffs then put it back on actually if it is metal.) Shillelagh won't help with the dwarven axes unfortunately I think

I have a few heavy armor sets laying around BTC on this guy, most from the Underdark, so it's decent stuff. If I was going to go light or no armor, I would go monk splash and get the reflex save up there a ways.

Question: Are spellpower boosts cumulative?
That is to say, if I took druid and chose enhancements for the healing line, would those add to the cleric ones?

You have levels of Fighter. You shouldn't need Masters touch.

AHA! So you are paying attention.
(Yeah, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain)

Thanks for your time.

[danotmano1998]

Master's Touch is pointless on a ftr splash; Force enh I, OTOH, is not, although with relatively low WIS it's questionable how useful BB will be. But why not a wiz splash instead for an extra metamagic like Empower?

Good suggestion. Empower was one of the things I wanted to grab for max Divine Punishments. Still trying to figure out how the extra sp from items on a sorc does/does not work in this instance..
BB's would just be for those too many enemies on me at once scenarios. (Obviously not for enemies with evasion)

Personally I would start 16 / 15 / 18 / 8 / 12 / 6; the extra TUs from CHA 12 aren't worth the stat pts, IMHO, and with higher base CON you don't need the racial CON. You don't list your epic feats; I would add IC:Slash & OC.

With being a melee as opposed to back line cleric, I am going to rely heavily on my Aura for "easy mode" healing whenever possible. Me, I like my turns. More turns = less SP spent on healing with an Aura going and a burst every so often as needed. I considered this and decided a few more HP were going to bring less to the build overall than more turns would.

Alternatively, did you consider going S&B w/Shield Mastery feats? Lower DPS, but you can lower DEX and gain PRR.

I did, and still may choose to go that route. There have been many times I was glad to be able to turtle up and stack divine punishments while healing. But as you say. Lower DPS. And I have not one, but 3 really solid raid weapons just collecting dust on this guy. The thought of dual wielding dwarven waraxes just makes me smile though. Maybe not optimal, but just plain cool.

[axel15810]

I'm a little confused by your build and requests, do you want a caster or a melee cleric? Your complaining that he is no good at offensive casting...well of course he is no good at it, your WIS is practically dumped, it's almost dumped to the minimum and you have almost no casting feats.

In my opinion your main problem is it sounds like you're expecting to be good at both casting and melee and it's just not possible. If I were you I'd pick either casting or melee. It's possible to be decent at both, but it's not possible to be good at both. There's just not enough feat and gear slots to go around. Either max out your WIS and take spell focus and spell pen feats and heighten or dump WIS to the minimum and take the melee feats. I personally think it's gimp but you can be a generalist if you want, just don't expect your casting to be any good on elites at level, EH or EE.

If your build musts are dwarf (-1 feat vs. human), TWF line (-3 feats) and cleave and g cleave (-2 feats), once you take the required healing feats empower heal, quicken, maximize you have what...1 feat left for offensive casting? So it's just not going to be possible to be good at it with your requirements. Unfortunately you can't have everything. If I were you I'd dump WIS to the minimum and concentrate on gearing for melee with your build. You can still have pretty good blade barriers and awesome divine punishment.

Grind out a torc and a con opp item and that should solve your running out of SP problem. Work on good turn management and carry stacks of heal scrolls to save SP as well. With a healthy amount of turns and heal scrolls you should never have to touch sp to heal 99% of the time once you're good at it. Maybe take Empower to boost your bursts (and BB/DP) even more. Good luck.

Edit: Oh and definitely take 1 wiz instead 1 sorc level. It gives you an extra feat at the cost of only a small number of SP to your build like others have said.

[SirValentine]

Thoughts:
The one sorceror level : Extra 40 spell power to my blade barriers, more Spell points. And hey, what cleric DOESN'T want jump?

If you take Wiz instead of Sorc, you get another feat. While keeping your BB spellpower, and Jump. No 5% bonus on spell points, though.

[SirValentine]

Question: One level of sorc.. Since sorcerors get double bonus spell points from items, would this build get that benefit? Or partial? Or not at all?

Partial. For only 1 level, very small partial. You'd get +5%.

[SirValentine]

I got some new items, including a CiTW shortsword an EE GH Dwarven Waraxe, and a Dueregar Dwarven Waraxe..
<snip>
Full Two Weapon Fighting line. (I know there's a good argument for Two Handed, but I have the gear already for the TWF, and plenty of THF characters already.)
Cleave & Great Cleave. ( These are just too much fun NOT to have on a melee IMO)

It looks like you have the gear for THF! I thought the Dwarven Axes (and Bastard Swords) benefit from the THF line of feats in terms of glancing blows and such.

Not having to sink so much into Dex would sure make your stat allocation easier.

[ThePrincipal]

17cleric/2rogue/1barb is a lot of run. the evasion and 10% movement speed are slick. UMD for teleport scrolls is nice too.

[firemedium_jt]

Most would say taking Toughness feat is a must on a melee and not an option. Probably not an option for most other classes too.

Some options are to ...

Take Wiz1 instead. Though I am not sure if you need Fighter1 for the exotic Dwarf Axe?

And I learned the hard way not to splash more than one level till you get CLR17 so CLR17/Wiz1/__ . You may have trouble getting invites with a deeper splash too early and your melee really does not need it.

Maybe just one feat of two weapon line is more popular for twf divines.

You really should read up on some forum posts cause you have a lot of mix match feats and not the most important one like Improved Critical Slash which is a must have in slash or piercing for most melee builds.

Lots of builds on the forums.

Your weapons are really nice against mobs but not as good as EAGA against bosses and also everything. EAGA also has slots for devotion and an ability buff. A great W of d20. Going THF solves a lot of issues for a Divine Melee with gear also.



Here is a dps build. You can very some enhancements and take some feats differently like Quicken and Empower can be swapped, but take Improved Critical ASAP and Cleave is good at level 15 for Paralyzer and Cursespewing weapons in the Vale.

Don't know what tomes you have, but build it for Min Bases of STR23 for Overwhelming Critical mins and CON21 for Epic Toughness.
Unless you have Stunning Blow or Sunder you don't need to go crazy with STR increases. Look at the requirements for some Epic Destinies you might like. Like Legendary Dreadnought and Fury Of The Wild. Best to start out as Exalted Angel to level 3 and get a free side step to Unyielding Sentinel, but they just get a couple of keys of destiny if you can afford it to go over to Dreadnought or play your way over there. Not everyone has lots of DDO points.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.16.01
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Dwarf 2 hd 
Level 25 Lawful Good Dwarf Male
(2 Fighter \ 17 Cleric \ 1 Wizard \ 5 Epic) 
Hit Points: 487
Spell Points: 970 
BAB: 14\14\19\24
Fortitude: 19
Reflex: 4
Will: 12

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats         Base Stats         Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)          (Level 25)           (Level 25)
Strength             18                 26                   27
Dexterity             8                  8                    8
Constitution         18                 21                   23
Intelligence         10                 11                   11
Wisdom               10                 10                   10
Charisma              8                  8                   10

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+3 Tome of Constitution used at level 11
+3 Tome of Wisdom used at level 11

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills        Base Skills        Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)          (Level 25)          (Level 25)
Balance               0                  9                   18
Bluff                -1                  0                    5
Concentration         8                 28                   33
Diplomacy            -1                  0                    5
Disable Device        n/a               n/a                   n/a
Haggle               -1                  0                    5
Heal                  0                  0                    7
Hide                 -1                 -1                    4
Intimidate           -1                  0                    5
Jump                  4                  8                   13
Listen                0                  0                    5
Move Silently        -1                 -1                    4
Open Lock            n/a               n/a                    n/a
Perform              n/a                n/a                   n/a
Repair                0                  0                    5
Search                0                  0                    7
Spot                  0                  0                    5
Swim                  4                  8                   13
Tumble                0                  0                    5
Use Magic Device     n/a                 0                    5

Level 1 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 2 (Wizard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Maximize Spell


Level 3 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 4 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+1)


Level 5 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+2)


Level 6 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell


Level 7 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+2)


Level 8 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+1)


Level 9 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell


Level 10 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+1)


Level 11 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+2)


Level 12 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 13 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+2)


Level 14 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+1)


Level 15 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Cleave


Level 16 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+1)


Level 17 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+2)


Level 18 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Spell


Level 19 (Fighter)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Great Cleave


Level 20 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Handed Fighting


Level 21 (Epic)
Skill: Bluff (+2)
Skill: Swim (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2.76848e+007)
Feat: (Selected) Overwhelming Critical


Level 22 (Epic)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2.76852e+007)


Level 23 (Epic)
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2.76854e+007)


Level 24 (Epic)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Selected) Epic Toughness


Level 25 (Epic)
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Cleric Radiant Servant I
Enhancement: Cleric Radiant Servant II
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Damage I
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Damage II
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution I
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Improved Heal I
Enhancement: Improved Heal II
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Smiting I
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Smiting II
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Smiting III
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life I
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life II
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Smiting I
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Smiting II
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Smiting III
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Life I
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Life II
Enhancement: Force Manipulation I
Enhancement: Cleric Smiting I
Enhancement: Cleric Smiting II
Enhancement: Cleric Smiting III
Enhancement: Cleric Smiting IV
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic I
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic II
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic III
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic IV
Enhancement: Cleric Charisma I
Enhancement: Cleric Charisma II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Vitality I
Enhancement: Cleric Extra Turning I
Enhancement: Cleric Extra Turning II
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Turning I
Enhancement: Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery I
Enhancement: Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery II

Your stats in the OP are not that bad for a Generalist build, but try to get a decent Epic Feat or some of the THF line in there for lvl21 and 24 along with Cleaves and your TWF. But really as long as you are willing to heal you should ok even if your melee is fun for you but not that great till you figure it out.

Don't know what tomes you have, but build it for STR23 for Overwhelming Critical mins and CON21 for Epic Toughness.
You can also take GTHF instead, but Dwarfs have a nice CON stat. You have to stand still for the glancing blows and will you really be standing toe to toe with bosses tanking them? Maybe a little bit, but not often cause you are still a Cleric 17 healer and might need to heal someone besides yourself. And those Dwarf axes have nice criticals, but no Metalline for boss DR. EAGA does! Epic Antique Greatax IMHO is the only thing worth grinding for me in the game.

If you are building to run it at low level you need the INT at 11 to cast level 1 Wizard spells and Master's Touch to melee with Martial Proficiency. Then all you need is Divine Power items to click ML5. If not you can vary INT and WIS and CHA for what you need for tomes and skills. I took one point into Tumble to activate it and the rest in Concentration and Balance. CHA12 with a +2 tome gives you Divine Might 1 which is a nice Pre Req for Radiant Servant cause the others suck, but some find a use for Divine Vitality 1. But Divine Might is not worth much of a sacrifice either IMHO. And the ability points are best spent elsewhere also. You can also raise Dex to 13 with a +2 tome for DEX15 min to swap out Empower for the 1st of the Two Weapon feats in there if you like those Dwarf Axes, and want to try them out.

THe planner shows the last levels as Fighter skills when they should be Epic, roll)


You can go sword and board with Dwarf Ax and get the double strike up. Maybe do some searching on the melee forum too.

[danotmano1998]

I'm a little confused by your build and requests, do you want a caster or a melee cleric? Your complaining that he is no good at offensive casting...well of course he is no good at it, your WIS is practically dumped, it's almost dumped to the minimum and you have almost no casting feats..

My wording in the original post wasn't clear, I can see. This particular build would of course be no good at landing any DC's. My original build was built as a wis maxed spell pen getting kinda dwarf. This is my replacement to that.

In my opinion your main problem is it sounds like you're expecting to be good at both casting and melee and it's just not possible..

It is quite possible to be a good caster cleric. Just not, IMO, nearly as much fun as a melee specc'd one.

If I were you I'd dump WIS to the minimum and concentrate on gearing for melee with your build. You can still have pretty good blade barriers and awesome divine punishment...

Precisely what this build is aimed at.

Grind out a torc and a con opp item and that should solve your running out of SP problem.

Oh, you mean the torc I've run DQ over 100 times on various characters and have seen ONE (1) drop for? If only..
As for the Con Opp, got that covered.

[danotmano1998]

If you take Wiz instead of Sorc, you get another feat. While keeping your BB spellpower, and Jump. No 5% bonus on spell points, though.

Perfect. Thanks for that! Exactly the kind of information I was hoping to glean from here.

Partial. For only 1 level, very small partial. You'd get +5%.

Another great tidbit. +1

It looks like you have the gear for THF! I thought the Dwarven Axes (and Bastard Swords) benefit from the THF line of feats in terms of glancing blows and such.

Not having to sink so much into Dex would sure make your stat allocation easier.

Yes. But I have 2.
I already have a stable of THF builds lying about.. For this guy I was trying to do something different without too much gimpage.

I would consider this build a " Hey we don't have any dinner tonight so we're going to play make whatever you can from these ingredients" kind of thing if you get what I mean.

[danotmano1998]

<SNIP>

You can go sword and board with Dwarf Ax and get the double strike up.

That's a lot of info. Most of which is great, but this is simply rebuilding an already level 24 cleric that I just want to get more fun out of, and use the goodies I have lying about.

The problem is every time I wanted to build this guy as a DPS, I wanted to go half orc.. I mean, If you're going to max THF DPS.. It's just too juicy not to, IMO. Building more for dwarven axe and double strike is a good idea I can flesh out and see what comes of it.

Thanks!

[firemedium_jt]

Not sure it should be that critical to build around the dwarf axes. You c an get a EAGA in under a week. You can play through the ransanck or use other epic toons to get the material seal and shard since they are bound to account. Really those axes are ok for mobsbut you are giving up too much to use them IMHO with the full twf line. THF is good but you may not utilize iy as much as u think.

But do what is fun for you as long as you take some core feats like Toughness Maximize Emp Heal and IMHO Quicken and Empower with CLR17. Melee power comes more from Epic Destinies than Heroic now so just look at the requirements for some of the destinies you might like to use and ask and read the forums. Most like FOTW and LD on non monk Clerics.

Some key gear I use are:

Divine Power items (lots)

Epic Antique Greatax - that is about it for hands
Devotion slotted - Ruby of Devotion for red slot, or you can do Acid d8 or d10. I use Diamond of INT for Colorless slot.
http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Antique_Greataxe

Commendation gear - Purple Dragon Knights, Cleric, and Wizwar (for SP instead of Greensteel)

Holy Symbol of lolith

Smoke Goggles for seeker

TOD belts CON +6 with GFL and Efficancy and Ardor with Archimagi for gear swapping.

Drow Stealth attack cloak
Drow Piwafwi

Rings to swap in resistance and dex and heavy fort.

Boots for striding and feather, Cannith