4e Creep + Furious Button-Mashing + You!

[Keybreaker]

The [W] standard and the incredible number of Special Attacks from EDs and soon Heroic Enhancements means that playing a melee or archer requires a disturbing number of hotkeys filled with independent timers and unpredictable refreshes...

As fun as Dreadnaught is, it drives me crazy how my most powerful ED cleaves refresh randomly. Sometimes I'm focusing more on my Special Attack refreshes than on the mobs I'm fighting.

The proposed Enhancement Trees promise a TON more Special Attacks! Where's my Ritalin?

[sidgarret]

Agree fully. Playing a fighter with Cleave, Great Cleave, Momentum Swing and Lay Waste tend to make me a person that looks down on the hotbars and miss whats going on. I used to be good at keeping an eye open on what happened in battle and even move good to take advantage and help out. Now there is a risk i get so caught in the button cycles that i barely notice i need healing...

[Vellrad]

I prefer new button mashing than old auto attack and afk.

[Flavilandile]

Agreed too, the incoming trainwreck called Enhancement Pass is an obvious example.

DDO is the game where you get a lot of hotbars, because they are needed, but not because of any button mashing. In most situation you will press somewhere in a hotbar because you are in a situation where you need it, with what we see on Lamania, you will have to cycle through hotbars and do like any modern MMO ( read : WoW Clones ) play a pachinko game to press the right shortcut at the right time.

Said another way :
I've been playing DDO for 7 years using only my mouse, what I see incoming will force me to use my keyboard for other things than moving around and chatting. This is not going in the right direction.

[Chai]

I like the button mashing aspect of it, you actually have to play your toon rather than having 2-3 buttons that get used. The real issue to the enhancement pass in its current incarnation is not the number of buttons needed to be utilized, its the comparative number of options that can be simultaneously built for shrinking, when comparing enhancement pass to whats currently live.

[HAL]

I like the button mashing aspect of it, you actually have to play your toon rather than having 2-3 buttons that get used. The real issue to the enhancement pass in its current incarnation is not the number of buttons needed to be utilized, its the comparative number of options that can be simultaneously built for shrinking, when comparing enhancement pass to whats currently live.

As someone said in another thread, we already have a good number of buttons to worry about - more will not be used, they will simply push out something else. If you only use 2-3 buttons currently you are the exception of all players I know.

[Truga]

I like the button mashing aspect of it, you actually have to play your toon rather than having 2-3 buttons that get used. The real issue to the enhancement pass in its current incarnation is not the number of buttons needed to be utilized, its the comparative number of options that can be simultaneously built for shrinking, when comparing enhancement pass to whats currently live.

10 hotbars is pretty much the minimum for me. That's what my rogue has, and I use all the situational scrolls and wands directly from inventory (that'd add another 2-4 bars, but inventory search has spoilt me). Now tell me, why would I want MORE things on my screen and less game?

I've been playing some GW2 again, and while I really miss stealth and being able to catch ledges and pull myself up, not having to have my whole keyboard bound 3 times over with modifier keys sure feels welcome. Combat needs to feel like combat, not piano playing. For that, I can go play LOTRO, which does it much better than DDO, too.

[DarkForte]

/signed

I'm in a situation where I can't play my fighter with less than 4 hotbars at the moment. Lammaland changes make this even worse, and I feel like I'm playing something that looks more like street fighter and less like ddo. More octagons, less squares please.

[HungarianRhapsody]

It wouldn't be so bad if the controls were more responsive. If you could hit the buttons a split second "early" and still have them trigger at the appropriate time, it would make my game play much more functional.

Any game that needs that many buttons should feel like a high performance sports car and DDO feels like a 1985 Toyota Camry with mushy steering that needs new shocks.

[scoobmx]

It wouldn't be so bad if the controls were more responsive. If you could hit the buttons a split second "early" and still have them trigger at the appropriate time, it would make my game play much more functional.

Any game that needs that many buttons should feel like a high performance sports car and DDO feels like a 1985 Toyota Camry with mushy steering that needs new shocks.

Agree. If this is the direction the game is moving in, cooldown desyncs need to be eliminated, lag needs to be fixed, and commands need to be buffered. Turbine please look to fighting games to see how this is implemented.

[Taojeff]

I have notice that the same people keep starting the same threads over and over trying to smash there point into the devs (now who is button mashing).

So you do not like button mashing, many of us do. I like more skill in my gameplay not just constant auto buffs. I want stuff to do after I make my character other then put on gear and click the mouse buttons.

And there are plenty of people who agree. I am usually to busy having fun button mashing to go post tons of threads about how the game should be made the way I want it and forget what other people want.

If YOU do not want to use the clickie attacks, fine then build a character that does not use them.

What we needs is options for both, I noticed that appear to be an over abundance of clickies abilities and action boosts, but only a few of them are useful. Problem is that quite a few of them are needed for higher tier abilities. Here are some useful rules when creating clickies:

1. An ability needs to scale well through its life: DPS is king, so even if abilities give buffs to defense, if the ability is only 1[W] hardly no one is going to use it. Abilities should start at 2[W]-4[W] for non epic. If you want to scale them better all you need to do is have the cool downs start out long and put other abilities further on in the tree/line that reduce/reset the cool downs. This is why the cleave\greatcleave\mom chain is so popular. Each clickie or ability that effect each other should be useful (imagine if u had to click unrelated or useless abilities to reset mom swing.. no one would use it).

An addition, defense abilities need to give 2-3x more a buff then a similar damage ability gives you in order to be worth spending points in the tree. Think about how big one point of damage is compared to one point of AC/PRR (since those systems have diminishing returns and dodge is capped).

2. Use abilities we already have as templates. Cleave and Great cleave even before they got a buff were super useful, what caused there widespread adoption was cool down rate being lowered. So why are you creating more abilities with long cool downs. It is not that I mind clicking on abilities...I love that. Give me stuff to do, that is why I play the game. What I do not like is having to look at my bar to figure out when I need to do something. You can fix this by a) making the cool downs more reasonable b)giving some kind of graphical effect when good abilities are ready.

Here is my wish list for abilities:

1. Start them off at level 1-2 so that people who want them can get them. I would say 2[W] at tier 1 and 3[W] at tier 2. But mostly make these damage early on.

2. Add effects to these abilities up the chain so if you want to take and invest in them, you can but they are not too powerful right away.

3. Try not to tie them to top tier buffs that a lot of people might want. Kensai is a great example of this. Everyone wants the centered weapon stance, but you should not have to go up two trees with multiple active abilities to get it. One active ability is fine (plus an action boost). Overall I like this chain but it has 4 active abilities to get a passive buff. Take one out, or change some of them to on proc abilities.

4. Before creating an action ability ask A) Would this be better as a proc B) Does it scale well C) Is there a similar ability that is going to replace it at epic levels and/or is it easier to get another ability that does the same thing from another chain. D) Does it help define that pre (like the meditative one does). E) Is it cool (like a good death), People love finishing moves, I am going to give people more finishing moves.

I am going to give some examples (Arrows mean it goes in a line)

Dual-Strike: Tier 2 Tempest 1/2/3[W] 2AP per level
10s Cooldown => Bleed Them: Adds d6/d8/d12 bleed damage to Dual Strike for 10secs can be stacked 2/4/6 times 2AP a level => Kill Em ALL: On Crit your dual strike has a 1/5/7& chance to allow you to attack 2 targets for 6 seconds. 2ap => Devasting Strike: Your Dual Strike now does +1[w] an addition to any levels you already have. On Vorpal your dual strike crit multiplier is increased by 1.

The above ability is useful, even at low levels but not too powerful, yet it scales well to for epic. I can give tons of other examples if needed.

[Ancient]

What we needs is options for both, I noticed that appear to be an over abundance of clickies abilities and action boosts, but only a few of them are useful. Problem is that quite a few of them are needed for higher tier abilities. Here are some useful rules when creating clickies:

I didn't quote your whole post, but I felt like doing so. I really like the system you describe.

[Qezuzu]

It's all a conspiracy to sell more macro keyboards.

[Gkar]

So I'm not the only one who thinks a lot of the last couple year's changes have been 4e inspired eh? lol

All those one time/limited "special powers", and of course pacifist cleric...

[Taojeff]

So I'm not the only one who thinks a lot of the last couple year's changes have been 4e inspired eh? lol

All those one time/limited "special powers", and of course pacifist cleric...

Your right it has. But 4e (which I do not play but like some of at least) was inspired by MMO. For years DDO claimed to have the most active combat.. but I always felt like I was doing more in other mmos that were more traditional because the abilities.

This is a preference though, and trees should have both active and passive. Like I have said repeatedly, the number of active abilities to get to the top of trees should be limited too things that are truly useful. Or have active abilities in trees that buff those abilities. Put enough other passive stuff in for people that want to spend AP, but do not need or want any more clickies (this will not every be 100% but there were plenty of things in the old system that I just took to get to the pre's).

[blerkington]

Hi,

Yes, the button-mashing direction of this game is making me wish I was quite a lot younger. I guess I will just have to increase my sugar intake greatly instead.

I wonder if the idea behind this is that existing customers want more button-mashing, or it's an attempt to make the game more appealing to a younger crowd.

Thanks.

[AzB]

Hi,

Yes, the button-mashing direction of this game is making me wish I was quite a lot younger. I guess I will just have to increase my sugar intake greatly instead.
I wonder if the idea behind this is that existing customers want more button-mashing, or it's an attempt to make the game more appealing to a younger crowd.

Thanks.

Although DDO started out as an online version of D&D, it was never meant to be. For good and bad.

You'll never have the role playing of PnP, but combat in PnP sucked. DDO makes combat fun with real time combat complete with split second decisions and a real feeling of actions causing consequences. So you take the good with the bad.

In PnP, many classes, I'll call them support classes so we know what we're talking about, make more sense because of the role playing aspect. In DDO where the game is centered around combat, the support classes are entirely useless except where directly affecting combat. This makes true support classes less fun to play except by people who like a different challenge.

Lastly, DDO is slowly turning into a video game. Most of the people spending time and money on the game are younger people who grew up spending a lot of time playing video games on console or computer. Like you, I am old and do not have this background or the coordination or speed to keep up with the vid game mentality.

So what does an old fart looking for a DnD experience do? Good question. I like DDO and definitely enjoy the good groups and the overall experience. I think the devs have done an amazing job with a world that allows immersion for those who enjoy it. I will try to keep up, but if the button mashing gets to be much more than it already is, I'm afaid I will be left behind. Just look for the gimp toon that seems to be 3 steps behind everyone else... that will be me.

I'm concerned that the enhancement pass is an attempt passed down by upper management to get more WOW players to play DDO. Make it simpler and more video game-like to play, and maybe the subscribership will grow? It seems like a bit of a gamble, but they may feel like it's the only shot they have as the subscribers and subsequent money trail dwindles. But it's clearly not to make the game "better", it's so obvious that it's designed to make the game more accessible. Overall, not a bad thing if the game doesn't suffer. We shall see...

[Qhualor]

I don't mind button mashing, as long as im not cycling through 1/2 dozen or more. I need to have both eyes on the screen and not constantly looking up and down watching for when the cool down is over, watching the fight, watching my health, aware of my surroundings and keeping an eye on the other party members too. button mashing is why I cant play monks