I'm hungry, I have to pee, and I'm trying to smoke.

[eonfreon]

As speaking from someone who actually likes active button mashing in combat I still have to say it's getting too much for the DDO style game.

Button mashing and cooldown work well in a game such as Aion for instance, because you're basically "locked into" combat. If your opponent happens to move, the game automatically moves you as well, thus you can basically stop watching the overall screen and just watch the keys and timers.

In DDO, however, you have to be very engaged in the combat actions. If your opponent moves, you have to actively move as well so that you get a physics check with your weapon. So in a furious battle it becomes crazy as you try to keep track of your opponent position, your position, and which abilities are on cooldown. I hate all the times I hit Momentum Swing or Exalted Smite or Divine Sacrifice or Flame Sword (whatever it's called) and look up to see that the Mob has moved enough one way or the other that I've essentially swung at "air".

Compare those abilities to the LD one where every Crit equals a +1 to my damage, this ability is a nice relief, if I crit I get a little "boost" effect over my head, which is very satisfying, and I know I'm now doing more damage. Nice, satisfying, and useful.

I like "heavy clicking games" but only in games that have that in their base design. Because of DDO's active combat, where movement actually matters, all these clickie effects and watching cooldowns, detract from the game's play, not enhance it. And "button mashing" really sucks with DDO's laggy system. I have to hit the key several times and see the button actually "light up" several times before the Server actually gets the message and activates the ability. It's frustrating as I smash my "Smite" and watch it glow several times before it actually delivers the attack. It's even more frustrating when a Mob does a scripted "backstep" when it finally does activate and I've just "swung at air" and am now waiting on the cooldown again.

[Persiflage]

Karavek, there's three different threads going right now all with basically the OP's point as the main topic. Yours is the lone voice of dissension I've encountered thus far. Perhaps there's a hint to be found somewhere in there.

Probably because people that like activated abilities aren't reading the thread.

I'm reading it...

As speaking from someone who actually likes active button mashing in combat I still have to say it's getting too much for the DDO style game.

Button mashing and cooldown work well in a game such as Aion for instance, because you're basically "locked into" combat. If your opponent happens to move, the game automatically moves you as well, thus you can basically stop watching the overall screen and just watch the keys and timers.

In DDO, however, you have to be very engaged in the combat actions. If your opponent moves, you have to actively move as well so that you get a physics check with your weapon. So in a furious battle it becomes crazy as you try to keep track of your opponent position, your position, and which abilities are on cooldown. I hate all the times I hit Momentum Swing or Exalted Smite or Divine Sacrifice or Flame Sword (whatever it's called) and look up to see that the Mob has moved enough one way or the other that I've essentially swung at "air".

Compare those abilities to the LD one where every Crit equals a +1 to my damage, this ability is a nice relief, if I crit I get a little "boost" effect over my head, which is very satisfying, and I know I'm now doing more damage. Nice, satisfying, and useful.

All of this. +1

I love active abilities. I go crazy for monks and monk-like toons. So much so that although I don't get to play much these days, I bought myself one of those crazy Logitech MMO gaming mice with 12 buttons on the side (and an extra one on top) with a shift key so I've got instant access to 24 different abilities without disrupting how I play. I have another 26 hotkey'd actions associated with the normal keys on my keyboard, and there are 18 programmable buttons at the side which I can use to give me even more active hotbar space (although these last are of limited utility because I haven't figured out a way to grow extra fingers).

And you know what? With all of that action real-estate, I've run out of "room" on some of my characters for abilities I need to instantly access in combat. I just can't keep track of any more. People joke about piano-playing, but I *am* a friggin' pianist - I am not scared of complicated sequences of key-presses and there's nothing at all wrong with my manual dexterity or coordination - and it's getting Too Much. Too much to find space for, too much to keep track of effectively. It has reached the point where I'm failing to use abilities which would make sense in combat because there are too many boosts and strikes with cooldowns for me to keep an eye on; once it gets beyond a certain point, I'd just as well not have those abilities at all.

Someone mentioned 14 different abilities for their fighter to make instant decisions on, and that is indeed a lot - I take nothing away from the poster - but the toon I was most recently playing is an 18 Druid / 2 Monk build. With Stunning Fist. In Grandmaster of Flowers.

Without the character in front of me, and off the top of my head, I am currently trying to *actively* manage, while fighting: 6 innate spell/abilities, 4 monk strikes, 3 heals, 14 spells (obviously not counting out-of-combat buffs or summons), 2 gear clickies, 2 active skills, 6 active GmoF abilities, stunning, 2 action boosts... That's 40 different buttons to press and they're just the ones I can remember right now, not counting things like movement, attacking, blocking, potions, scrolls or wands. I'm certain that there are plenty of people here who manage even more. Responding to eonfreon's point above, almost all of these things are subject to disruption by the game client or server not keeping up, mobs being unaffected because they're mid-animation, invisible geometry blocking line of effect, the "you are not facing" bug etc., and they've all got cooldowns to keep track of; if a planned sequence of actions falls apart due to a hiccup in the game, it can be a nightmare to work out how to pick the thread up again.

Yes, I understand that this problem is endemic to toons which use a tactical melee style *and* cast, and I appreciate that I've made the choice to play a character that has a lot of micro-management required in combat because I enjoy that play-style, but c'mon, enough already. I'm probably towards the high end of the spectrum in terms of how much active management I find enjoyable, but I really, really, REALLY Do Not Need to have *anything* else I can only gain a benefit from by clicking yet another different button mid-fight. More passive bonuses and long-duration effects (or even things which activate themselves automatically when conditions are met) would be a boon, to say the least. I don't feel the game needs any more 6-to-30-second boosts or strikes with cooldowns; by and large, I'm of the opinion that class and race "enhancements" should (mostly) enhance class and race abilities or characteristics, not introduce a bunch more active abilities to try to work in somehow.

[Taojeff]

I love the active abilities. Most of them are great. What needs to be changed is that the abilites need to scale better for epic content.

6s for a 1 minute cool down ability... no thanks.

Some are good, but some need tweaking.
Kensai:
Good:

• A Good Death: Useful ability with a cooldown that fits its use. I was getting 900+ base + 500 on it reguraly
• Shattering Strike: 3[w] damage for 3ap with moderate cool down and useful effect

Bad:
Everything else...especially the action boost clickies. If you have 6 action boost abilities, your not going to use the less useful ones when you can save them all for haste boost. Get rid of these and just add clickies or ability procs.

Reed the wind...this would be ok if it was 2[w] and the cool down was halved.

Basically for top tiers you should be looking at 4[w] with a moderate cool down (or longer for uber abilities).

[Truga]

I like "heavy clicking games" but only in games that have that in their base design. Because of DDO's active combat, where movement actually matters, all these clickie effects and watching cooldowns, detract from the game's play, not enhance it.

This. I like clicking buttons. But having 21984719432e+30 abilities, each with it's own cooldown number between 1 and 497 makes for bad gameplay. I'd rather have to "mash" 10 abilities with cooldowns short enough to be able to spam it "at will", but long enough that having it on cooldown at a critical moment hurts. So basically, 5-30 second cooldowns, unless the ability is exceptionally good (I'm looking at you, manyshot).

[Taojeff]

same thing, different thread:

I have notice that the same people keep starting the same threads over and over trying to smash there point into the devs (now who is button mashing).

So you do not like button mashing, many of us do. I like more skill in my gameplay not just constant auto buffs. I want stuff to do after I make my character other then put on gear and click the mouse buttons.

And there are plenty of people who agree. I am usually to busy having fun button mashing to go post tons of threads about how the game should be made the way I want it and forget what other people want.

If YOU do not want to use the clickie attacks, fine then build a character that does not use them.

What we needs is options for both, I noticed that appear to be an over abundance of clickies abilities and action boosts, but only a few of them are useful. Problem is that quite a few of them are needed for higher tier abilities. Here are some useful rules when creating clickies:

1. An ability needs to scale well through its life: DPS is king, so even if abilities give buffs to defense, if the ability is only 1[W] hardly no one is going to use it. Abilities should start at 2[W]-4[W] for non epic. If you want to scale them better all you need to do is have the cool downs start out long and put other abilities further on in the tree/line that reduce/reset the cool downs. This is why the cleave\greatcleave\mom chain is so popular. Each clickie or ability that effect each other should be useful (imagine if u had to click unrelated or useless abilities to reset mom swing.. no one would use it).

An addition, defense abilities need to give 2-3x more a buff then a similar damage ability gives you in order to be worth spending points in the tree. Think about how big one point of damage is compared to one point of AC/PRR (since those systems have diminishing returns and dodge is capped).

2. Use abilities we already have as templates. Cleave and Great cleave even before they got a buff were super useful, what caused there widespread adoption was cool down rate being lowered. So why are you creating more abilities with long cool downs. It is not that I mind clicking on abilities...I love that. Give me stuff to do, that is why I play the game. What I do not like is having to look at my bar to figure out when I need to do something. You can fix this by a) making the cool downs more reasonable b)giving some kind of graphical effect when good abilities are ready.

Here is my wish list for abilities:

1. Start them off at level 1-2 so that people who want them can get them. I would say 2[W] at tier 1 and 3[W] at tier 2. But mostly make these damage early on.

2. Add effects to these abilities up the chain so if you want to take and invest in them, you can but they are not too powerful right away.

3. Try not to tie them to top tier buffs that a lot of people might want. Kensai is a great example of this. Everyone wants the centered weapon stance, but you should not have to go up two trees with multiple active abilities to get it. One active ability is fine (plus an action boost). Overall I like this chain but it has 4 active abilities to get a passive buff. Take one out, or change some of them to on proc abilities.

4. Before creating an action ability ask A) Would this be better as a proc B) Does it scale well C) Is there a similar ability that is going to replace it at epic levels and/or is it easier to get another ability that does the same thing from another chain. D) Does it help define that pre (like the meditative one does). E) Is it cool (like a good death), People love finishing moves, I am going to give people more finishing moves.

I am going to give some examples (Arrows mean it goes in a line)

Dual-Strike: Tier 2 Tempest 1/2/3[W] 2AP per level
10s Cooldown => Bleed Them: Adds d6/d8/d12 bleed damage to Dual Strike for 10secs can be stacked 2/4/6 times 2AP a level => Kill Em ALL: On Crit your dual strike has a 1/5/7& chance to allow you to attack 2 targets for 6 seconds. 2ap => Devasting Strike: Your Dual Strike now does +1[w] an addition to any levels you already have. On Vorpal your dual strike crit multiplier is increased by 1.

The above ability is useful, even at low levels but not too powerful, yet it scales well to for epic. I can give tons of other examples if needed.

[InsanityIsYourFriend]

http://www.razerzone.com/gaming-mice/razer-naga-molten/


this + the intelligence of not using EVERY FREAKING BUTTON I HAVE = nice n simple

but no really micromanaging is epic just dont use all the buttons you have all the time. its like me i carry a DW clicky everywhere i go, but i only use it when i am afraid of neg energy *you know that time that you realize: I just got harmed/fingered/destroyed/imploded/found a death knight*
Lightning mace (for my acrobat) i use it all the time
ki strikes used all the time
tod whenever its off cooldown (though idk how i'll do that now)
but am i perma shadow faded? no Do I hit haste boost/dmg boost EVERY time i enter combat? no does my wizard always have displacement active? not really
use the abilities when they make sense to use them not when you can


MANYSHOT I LOVE YOU BUT I DO NOT USE YOU EVERY TIME YOUR OFF COOLDOWN!

[Dagolar]

There has been a steady response against this progression since it began with UD14.

The real issue isn't a push toward clickie spam, it's [super short durations- 20s v 30s] and [the inability to choose an effective passive ability in its place] and [clickies not balancing properly or being bugged].

At least, those are the points I recall.

In any case, no matter how you look at it, cycling through attacks is NOT a tactical/strategic effect; Just like with monks [or cleave attacks] you end up tapping ['1', '2', '3', '4', repeat], or whatever your hotkeys to the effect are.
It's a busy effect, nothing more.

The attacks would have to be far more complex to fulfill a tactical role; And DDO has favored players who focus on character building and strategic placement [and yes, tactical attack methods] over click-frenzy players. It's already lost players as it moved in the click-spam direction, and seeing as there is no need to take a path that exclusively focuses on clickies [versus a path that also offers suitable passive options as well], there's no fathomable reason why they'd pursue such a limited path.

[Gkar]

Probably because people that like activated abilities aren't reading the thread.
Also, keep in mind it's much easier to balance 10 activated abilities than it is to balance 4 passives. The exception being when none of the passives can be active at he same time.

Well then I'd rather they only had 4 passives.

Actually maybe not, make it 2 actives, 3 passives.

The occassional button is fine, but it is out of control. I want to enjoy the game and the active combat this game was built on, not spend 80% of my time looking down at button bars to see when each of 10 different timers is ready for me to mash it again.

[Gkar]

There has been a steady response against this progression since it began with UD14.

The real issue isn't a push toward clickie spam, it's [super short durations- 20s v 30s] and [the inability to choose an effective passive ability in its place] and [clickies not balancing properly or being bugged].

At least, those are the points I recall.

In any case, no matter how you look at it, cycling through attacks is NOT a tactical/strategic effect; Just like with monks [or cleave attacks] you end up tapping ['1', '2', '3', '4', repeat], or whatever your hotkeys to the effect are.
It's a busy effect, nothing more.

The attacks would have to be far more complex to fulfill a tactical role; And DDO has favored players who focus on character building and strategic placement [and yes, tactical attack methods] over click-frenzy players. It's already lost players as it moved in the click-spam direction, and seeing as there is no need to take a path that exclusively focuses on clickies [versus a path that also offers suitable passive options as well], there's no fathomable reason why they'd pursue such a limited path.

Exactly. That, "trip" button was fine, because it was a strategic choice, along with 1-3 other strategic moves you may have trained. Quite managable and natural. We've gone well beyond that now. I'd rather have +2 damage passive than +5 average damage but you have to keep constantly cycling 1-2-3-4-5-1-2-3-4-5 in an unthinking spam and/or unthing cooldown watch.

And I think it was actually monk that sent us down the wrong path in the first place. The only way I found monk playable was by setting up macros.

[Taojeff]

Exactly. That, "trip" button was fine, because it was a strategic choice, along with 1-3 other strategic moves you may have trained. Quite managable and natural. We've gone well beyond that now. I'd rather have +2 damage passive than +5 average damage but you have to keep constantly cycling 1-2-3-4-5-1-2-3-4-5 in an unthinking spam and/or unthing cooldown watch.

And I think it was actually monk that sent us down the wrong path in the first place. The only way I found monk playable was by setting up macros.

Seems to one of the their most popular classes. Probably why they did the druid active/spell attacks....and EDs the way they did.

[Davelfus]

honestly, they could copy a bit manyshot imo

you need to know when to start using it so you don't waste on killing only one guy in half a second... and regret that it is still on CD when you have 10 bad guys running down the hall to cut your head off (oh the memories...)

[Sonos]

I use a voice macro... "stun!", "unbalance!", "sunder!", "TeeOhDee!"

But then when I'm on my caster and my roomie, yells "Get the Door!" a Ddoor pops up.

None of that is true but I wish I had voice-macro, that's what I'm trying to say.

[HungarianRhapsody]

I use a voice macro... "stun!", "unbalance!", "sunder!", "TeeOhDee!"

But then when I'm on my caster and my roomie, yells "Get the Door!" a Ddoor pops up.

None of that is true but I wish I had voice-macro, that's what I'm trying to say.

The correct voice macro for DDoor is "Get to zhe choppa!"