Leveling a cleric - a comparison of levels 7, 12, and 17

[Khimberlhyte]

I compared a vanilla 32 pt L17 craftbot cleric that I have on live versus Lama. The critical enhancement levels for my clerics when leveling are 7 (when I can normally afford RadServI), 12-13 (RadServII), and 17-18 (because I'll be spending a long time there.

I'll split this into three posts, comparing live to lam at three AP totals - 28 AP, 45AP, and 68AP (which is what the char has on live).

28 AP Live Servers

I usually take Radiant Servant around level 7, so for 28 AP I get:
Rad Ser 1 (4AP) burst, turns regen, one caster level higher
Sovereign Host 2AP
HumAdapatability Wis 2AP
HumImpRecovery 2AP
Improved Empower Heal 2AP
RacialToughness 1AP
Improved Heal I-II 2AP total (pre-req)
Smiting I 1AP
Life magic I-II 3AP total
Clr Wis i-II 6AP total (2+4)
DV1 1AP
Imp Turning 1 1AP
Wand Scroll 1 1AP (25%)

28 AP Lama
I appear to get Longsword proficiency as a free feat bundled with the new Soverign Host feat, so that saves some AP.

HumanImprovedRecovery 2AP
Human Versatility (first tier is free now, which is good as you need it as a pre-req for human adaptability)
Human Adaptability (wis) 2AP
Toughnessx2 (5 hp each for 10 HP total, no feat req.) 2 AP
Healing domain (free, 22 light power and 33 positive SP)
Positive energy bust. 2AP
Endless Turning 2AP (turns regen 2 minutes)
Divine Vitality I 2AP
Cleric Wisdom 2AP
Intense Healing 2AP +1 caster level pos energy
Wand and Scroll Mastery II 2AP (1 AP per tier, 50% total)

Wasted AP below, just dumped into the tree to unlock Endless turning:
Extra Turning I 2AP
Improved Turning I 2AP
Mighty Turning I 2AP
Divine Cleansing I 2AP
Pacifism 2AP

At level 6-7, the enhancements are roughly comparable to live. On Lama, I am down by 1 Wis (I might be able to buy that instead of some wasted AP, too lazy to check). I am also down by 10 Spell power on postive energy, down by 40 spellpow on negative energy, and up a little bit on scrolls.

[Khimberlhyte]

Let's go to the next tier, and spend another 17AP. On live, 45 AP gets me a welll-rounded character with Radiant Servant II.

45AP, Live servers

Unyield Sov 4ap (wasted, just a pre-req)
Rac Toug II 2ap
Pray life 1ap
Pray Inc life 1ap
Life Magic 3 3ap
Spell Pen 2ap
Smiting II 2ap
RadServ II 2ap aura 1hp per 3 caster levels

45AP, Lama
Toughness (5more HP) 1AP. That's it, 5 HP short compared to live.
Wisdom II 2AP (I had that at level 6-7 before)
Divine Health 2AP (immune to mummy rot? That would be nice)
DV II 2AP
Efficient Empower Healing 2AP (1SP cheaper EH)
Improved Empower Healing 2AP (+25 spell power to empower healing, 1% crit chance)
Intense Healing II & III 4AP total, another 2 caster levels on pos energy spells
Incredible Healing I & II - 4AP total, maximum caster level of pos energy spells increased by 2

I had to dump many AP into Tree for unlocking the Aura later on, with another 4 AP - most of it on hjealbot stuff I would not otherwise take on live. While some of it may be nice, it isn't anything I want or need unless I want to rename my character to Heystack:

With 38 AP spent in the Healing tree, I am 4AP away from an aura unless I give up on stuff I can easily afford on live, like human healing amp and toughness. I think I get 38 light Spellpower now (less than the 40 in smiting II on live) and 57 positive energy Spellpower (less than the 60 from Life Magic III on live). Negative energy Spellpower? Zero compared to 60 on live. But who would want to hurt things or kill monsters as a cleric anyways? That is nasty, tedious stuff, better saved for DPS and real casters. Better to stay in the back, toggle pacifism, and hjeal.

So what am I missing at level 12-13 trying to build a versatile cleric, with 45 AP spent? Lama is down by 5 HP, has one lower spell penetration (more failures on Destruction), and lacks an aura. Oops. That isn't good. It does have better healing, and will be immune to disease until someone decides that clerics need to fear disease again, kind of like how we all got shafted in U14.

We're considerably behind on power now, as we head into the key leveling XP areas of the Sands and Gianthold.

[Postumus]

Wont putting skill points into Heal more than make up for the loss of pos spell power?

It is personal preference, but I do not think the improved turning APs spent are necessarily 'wasted'.

Also you now have +5% crit chance starting at level one.

[Khimberlhyte]

Moving up to 68 AP (my char on live is 17, holding 18):

68 AP on Live
Wand and Scroll mastery II 2ap (35% total)
Life Magic IV 4ap (80 spellpower total pos and neg)
Improved Spell PenII 4ap
Smiting III 3ap (60 Spellpower total)
Wis III 6ap
Imp EmpHeal 4AP

At level 17, this character has 80 negative, 80 positive, 60 light spellpower. Empower healing is 75 SPow

68 AP on Lama
Incredible Healing III 2AP
Positive Energy Aura 2AP

Protection Tree
Sacred Touch 2AP (only to unlock second tier)
Command III 6AP (mostly to unlock third tier, no spell pen)
Cleric Wisdom III 2AP
Maximize III 6AP - this is very very nice. Too bad I have no spell pen or focus available as an enhancement.
Awareness I 1AP (just to unlock 4th tier)
Wisdom IV 2AP

This char has 87 pos, 33 neg (not from enhancements as far as I can tell), and 59 light spellpower.

Negative spellpower takes a huge hit with the enhancement pass. This cleric will get a lot less benefit from casting Destruction or Slay Living, since it is missing 2 Spell Pen and most of its negative spell power compared to live.

The only plus to the new system at level 17-18 was getting a 9 SP cost reduction on Maximize from the protection tree, and cheap heightened command from the protection tree. Of course, without spell pen, neither of those improvements really matters as much anyways.

I think I ended up with 1 more wisdom as well, because there was nothing else that was worth spending any AP. Empower healing has 25 more spell power than on live. Not that it matters when leveling, since my options are to use aura, scroll, or else overheal.

[Khimberlhyte]

Overall, this system needs the following changes to be better than what we have today on live:

-don't remove existing abilities. This is supposed to be an improvement, not change for the sake of change alone. When you remove abilities like Spell Penetration, that is a degradation.

-make sure that critical existing abilities like the RSII healing aura can be purchased at a comparable AP investment to live, and without having to burn AP on so many useless pre-requisites.

-right now, each tree barely offers one viable path that is highly dependent on a huge AP investment in that tree, and on the purchase of many pre-requisites. The mandatory focus on huge investments in a single, hyperspecialized tree is what hurts this system. Burn it with fire.

-make the options suck less. I could probably spend 120 AP on live without running out of things I want. On Lama, the only way I got to 68 AP spent was by purchasing 30AP worth of things that have zero value to me. I have no idea what I will do with the remaining 12AP at level 20, because nothing appeals to me.

-remove all pre-requisites for a capstone other than 18 or 20 levels in a class. Why should I need to buy pacifism or death pact in order to get a cleric capstone? Once I've put in 18 levels of cleric, I think I have done everything I need for a capstone. Making capstones free would be a suitable reward for pure classed characters.

[Khimberlhyte]

Wont putting skill points into Heal more than make up for the loss of pos spell power?

It is personal preference, but I do not think the improved turning APs spent are necessarily 'wasted'.

No, putting skill points into heal does not make up for it. That will cost me build points compared to live. It is bad enough that I would need to invest in the new int-based spellpower skill to really max out a blade barrier. Clerics are already starved for build points (str, con, wis, char) and skills. Making it so that we need to put 4 more points into intelligence to afford Heal and the int-based spellpower skill is painful to contemplate. It's fine if you want to completely dump str and just hjeal, but otherwise?

The improved turning APs are wasted for me because they are a pre-requisite that I would not otherwise take. I feel the same way about unyeilding sovereignty on live, prayer of life, incredible life, etc. I take them because I have to in order to unlock Radiant Servant II on live, not because I want them. Before RadSerII was released, I never took those enhancements.

I don't see myself logging into lama again unless I read about major, substantive changes that are a lot more than token appeasement or window dressing.

[Postumus]

Maybe I missed it, but how many ranks did you put into the heal skill and the new skill that affects overall spell power?

[Postumus]

No, putting skill points into heal does not make up for it. That will cost me build points compared to live. It is bad enough that I would need to invest in the new int-based spellpower skill to really max out a blade barrier. Clerics are already starved for build points (str, con, wis, char) and skills. Making it so that we need to put 4 more points into intelligence to afford Heal and the int-based spellpower skill is painful to contemplate. It's fine if you want to completely dump str and just hjeal, but otherwise?

That, to me, seems to be the biggest adjustment, having to put more points into intelligence on what has typically been a dump stat for clerics.

I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing. Players who want to focus more on casting and healing will have to boost their intelligence a bit and not min/max the same stats as they had in the past.

What are your character starting stats? Is it a 36 point build?

[Khimberlhyte]

Maybe I missed it, but how many ranks did you put into the heal skill and the new skill that affects overall spell power?

You totally missed the point. Having to invest into heal and spellpower as a skill costs me build points that I would rather devote to constitution or strength, or else requires me to give up on other skills that I would rather have like diplo or UMD. They are not really a free addition - there is a high cost to getting them, and they have no bearing on what I have written about enhancements.

It is irrelevant how many ranks I put in, as I tried to count spellpower after subtracting the points I put in.

[Postumus]

You totally missed the point. Having to invest into heal and spellpower as a skill costs me build points that I would rather devote to constitution or strength, or else requires me to give up on other skills that I would rather have like diplo or UMD. They are not really a free addition - there is a high cost to getting them, and they have no bearing on what I have written about enhancements.

It is irrelevant how many ranks I put in, as I tried to count spellpower after subtracting the points I put in.

No need to get rude. And no I didn't miss your point. I understand that you can't have the exact same build you had under the old system by spending points the exact same way you did before on stats and skills. I didn't expect you would be able to.


You didn't bother to try various build options to see if you can achieve a build that might be different or more fun to play, you simply tried to recreate your exact same build under the new system solely through AP allocation, then threw your hands up in frustration because your old build doesn't translate well into the new system. All you've done here is prove what most of us knew would happen: builds will have to change.

[Khimberlhyte]

You didn't bother to try various build options to see if you can achieve a build that might be different or more fun to play, you simply tried to recreate your exact same build under the new system solely through AP allocation, then threw your hands up in frustration because your old build doesn't translate well into the new system. All you've done here is prove what most of us knew would happen: builds will have to change.

I've leveled enough clerics and other characters over the past 3.5 years to know how I want to play, and what I want a character to do. There are classes that do not interest me at all, like fighter, paladin, and FvS. Making those classes appeal to me through an enhancement pass would kill them for many others, because they do (or don't do) things a certain way, and require me to adopt a playstyle that I do not enjoy.

The problem is not that a build does not translate - entire playstyles and mindsets will not translate. Versatility is a mindset that is deeply ingrained into most long term players. A first life cleric on the live servers is not going to DC cast like a first life necromancer at any level, but it is at least going to be viable in elite content when leveling. That same cleric is not going to melee anywhere near as well as a fighter, but it is still worthwhile to pick up a weapon and swing it around. Those are somewhat iconic features of a cleric in Dungeons and Dragons, not just hjealing.

Versatility is gone, since dumping 2 or 4 more build points into intelligence means I might as well never equip a weapon. Negative energy spell power is gone. Spell pen is gone. There goes the viable offensive casting.

How many clerics have you capped? What did you do with them? Ever rolled a clonk? I've played a lot of casters, clerics in particular. Many of the things I like about the class have been slowly erased over the past year, and this enhancement pass will finish them off for me.

No need to get rude.

You have no idea what rude is. I suggest that you go on and report my post. Maybe a mod will agree with you. I stopped caring, and don't expect to log in to the forums on this account after they combine the logins anyways.

What are your character starting stats? Is it a 36 point build?

To reinforce the point about you missing things, try reading the first sentence in this thread.

[Ayseifn]

If you started with 17-18 wisdom you could have shaved 3 build points there to add into int and have the same ending wis score as you do on live. That'd net you 24-25 spellcraft or heal and some points in the other when tomes kick in to even. Spellcraft will buff you comets, blade barriers, flamestrikes, etc that you couldn't get before so I'd put them into that.

Still on the fence about the spell power changes, but the loss of spell pen is not cool.

[Postumus]

If you started with 17-18 wisdom you could have shaved 3 build points there to add into int and have the same ending wis score as you do on live. That'd net you 24-25 spellcraft or heal and some points in the other when tomes kick in to even. Spellcraft will buff you comets, blade barriers, flamestrikes, etc that you couldn't get before so I'd put them into that.

Still on the fence about the spell power changes, but the loss of spell pen is not cool.

Exactly what I am talking about. The fact that clerics even have an option to buff blade barriers now without splashing another class is something new. The spell pen loss is also one of the things I like least. I don't understand that.

[fink2008]

I think the changes are good, aura is strong should be hard to get.

On your particular build you lose 47 neg spellpower.

23 heal skill level ups + epic levels = 28 heal skill + 15 item = 43 heal skill + WIS modifer(48 if you have a +20 item).

That makes your neg spellpower better than what it currently is, and boosts your spellpower for any other spell by 48 +wis mod basically. So net gain.

Empower healing spell (the feat) increases both your burst and your aura, so unlike your claims that an increase of 25 spellpower compared to live doesnt' matter, it actually affects what you said you will be using the most (aura). It seems strange that you did not know this after leveling multiple clerics over 3.5 years and claiming that you are knowledgeable about their mechanics.

So basically, your losing 2 spell pen and 5 hp and up to 2 strength (to put 2 into int). Not a big deal at all, considering Gianthold which is current endgame has plenty of mobs that you can cast spells on that don't have any SR at all. On a first life cleric I think it would be unlikely you could pass the spell pen on EE mobs here anyways, let alone the saves, really doesn't seem like a big deal to me. As far as the strength goes, -1 to hit and damage is not a big deal unless you were trying to min/max a melee cleric here which doesn't seem to be the case. My cleric with 14 str has no issues hitting eh gianthold mobs with divine power/divine might up.

All in all, I think the only changes that are justified by your complaints, would be giving access to 2 spell penetration on the new tree(s). I personally don't think it's a big deal if these 2 spell penetration dont get added to the trees.

I do thank you OP for your post, it has shown me that my cleric will be buffed if these particular changes make it to live servers.

[Khimberlhyte]

I think the changes are good, aura is strong should be hard to get.

On your particular build you lose 47 neg spellpower.

23 heal skill level ups + epic levels = 28 heal skill + 15 item = 43 heal skill + WIS modifer(48 if you have a +20 item).

That makes your neg spellpower better than what it currently is, and boosts your spellpower for any other spell by 48 +wis mod basically. So net gain.

You appear to have confused the changes to Heal skill with the new Spellcraft skill. The Heal skill does not increase any other spell, only negative and positive. To get an increase to "any other spell" as you stated would require yet another two build points into intelligence (four total now compared to live) to be able to invest in Spellcraft as well as Heal. Spellcraft has an int mod, so again, a fairly high price to get maybe to 30 or 35 universal spellpower on a cleric at level 25.

I consider two build points into Int to buy Heal to be a rather high cost to just keep up with the negative spell power I have today that comes along with Life Magic. That makes it a net loss. It is an even more significant loss at level 12 or 17, as I would have 60 negative spell power at those levels on live, versus maybe 20 on Lama after spending two build points. Also, if you check the title, you will see that this thread was about leveling, not end-game.

Empower healing spell (the feat) increases both your burst and your aura, so unlike your claims that an increase of 25 spellpower compared to live doesnt' matter, it actually affects what you said you will be using the most (aura). It seems strange that you did not know this after leveling multiple clerics over 3.5 years and claiming that you are knowledgeable about their mechanics.

Aura is for small top-up, and dealing with minor damage like archers when shield-blocking while torcing. 25 spellpower is going to add what, around one hp per tick at level 12? Two hp? Three? I already use a lot of scrolls because I am too impatient to stand around waiting to top people up. That isn't going to change the aura appreciably. Even at level 25, what is it going to do for you - maybe five HP more per tick? Given the burst or even sustained damage rates in EH and above, that's not going to make an appreciable difference in the amount of SP you spend on healing.

So basically, your losing 2 spell pen and 5 hp and up to 2 strength (to put 2 into int). Not a big deal at all, considering Gianthold which is current endgame has plenty of mobs that you can cast spells on that don't have any SR at all. On a first life cleric I think it would be unlikely you could pass the spell pen on EE mobs here anyways, let alone the saves, really doesn't seem like a big deal to me. As far as the strength goes, -1 to hit and damage is not a big deal unless you were trying to min/max a melee cleric here which doesn't seem to be the case. My cleric with 14 str has no issues hitting eh gianthold mobs with divine power/divine might up.

All in all, I think the only changes that are justified by your complaints, would be giving access to 2 spell penetration on the new tree(s). I personally don't think it's a big deal if these 2 spell penetration dont get added to the trees.

I do thank you OP for your post, it has shown me that my cleric will be buffed if these particular changes make it to live servers.

Commitments were made that the enhancement pass was supposed to be a buff, not a nerf to players. Maintaining variety was a stated goal, not channeling everyone into healbotting. I don't care much about end-game and mostly stick with 1-20 because grinding the five newest quests and most recent raid over and over for the latest gear is not fun for me.

So I take it from your comment that you are content to see the promises made over the years about prestiges left unfulfilled, apart from a healbot playstyle? While they are not end-game gear anymore, you're fine with never seeing the three prestiges that were planned out and built into the ToD sets four years ago? You're happy with this weaksauce change rather than the long promised substantive prestiges that give clerics two viable paths other than healbotting? You're willing to give Turbine the thumbs-up for dropping the ball in so many ways on this, and for delivering so little when so much was promised over the years?

I care much more about levels 1-19 than I do level 25. In order to avoid nerfing clerics at levels 1-19 compared to live, the minimum that would need to be done is adding spell penetration, restoring negative energy spellpower, and bringing the aura cost and pre-requisites down.

The aura is powerful, but nobody has seen fit to bring out the nerfbat in the past three years, so why make it harder to get and more costly? Compared to something like Endless Fusilade that artificers get in their first tier on live, is it really overpowered? Compared to the negative aura (just a spell slot) and undead form on necromancers, is it really something that needs to be made harder to get?

[Grace_ana]

I agree with Kimber's posts here. There may be some clerics that don't see as much of a change because of their specific build, gear, or playstyle, but for the most part this takes a lot away from those of us that play clerics as both healers and offensive casters. It severely limits build choices as well. And I don't really feel the domains are well thought out in regards to how clerics are played in various ways or their potential on live.

[JOTMON]

Commitments were made that the enhancement pass was supposed to be a buff, not a nerf to players. Maintaining variety was a stated goal, not channeling everyone into healbotting.

/+1 Nice comparison writeup in this thread.

I am concerned about the promises made that we would have 3 prestiges for each class and we see 1 Healbot and a mash of scrap called protection that they are passing off as a 2nd tree.

AP costs are too expensive
Maj says they are aware of this.. http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=414767
so will be interesting to see how it is handled

Too many fillers required when spending AP to get what you want, more so if you have dragonmarks..

Gonna need a feat that gives us 20 more AP.


Found this interesting..

Spellcraft is being previewed with the current Lamannia builds but is not intended for release with the next patch/update. Please feel free to enjoy this very early look at the new skill.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=376774

So spellcraft wont be available for the enhancement pass release leaving casters behind on skill point spellpower.

[fink2008]

You appear to have confused the changes to Heal skill with the new Spellcraft skill.

Yes I did, you are still coming out ahead if you only get the heal skill. The spellcraft skill will increase your spellpower for schools that are currently inaccessible with cleric enhancements on live, this could also be usefull for EDs, I haven't really looked into it but it's a thought.

Aura is for small top-up, and dealing with minor damage like archers when shield-blocking while torcing. 25 spellpower is going to add what, around one hp per tick at level 12? Two hp? Three? I already use a lot of scrolls because I am too impatient to stand around waiting to top people up. That isn't going to change the aura appreciably. Even at level 25, what is it going to do for you - maybe five HP more per tick? Given the burst or even sustained damage rates in EH and above, that's not going to make an appreciable difference in the amount of SP you spend on healing.

I use my aura effectively in EE content all the time. With an extra 25 spellpower it will probably crit for 240-250 ish instead of 225. Not gonna complain about this buff. At level 12 this won't affect the aura that much, but it will affect the burst. I definately spammed alot of bursts around level 12 and wouldn't complain about this buff.

Commitments were made that the enhancement pass was supposed to be a buff, not a nerf to players. Maintaining variety was a stated goal, not channeling everyone into healbotting.

I was never aware of these commitments nor do I really care about them really. If other people do care about these commitments I'm not against them trying to hold Turbine to them, and can only wish you luck. If turbine nerfs a build I play I'm fine with that, I have some toons that are weak builds that are a whole lotta fun to play. I really dont see these changes as channeling everyone into healbotting, I think clerics will dpsbot just fine after the enhancement pass.

So I take it from your comment that you are content to see the promises made over the years about prestiges left unfulfilled, apart from a healbot playstyle? While they are not end-game gear anymore, you're fine with never seeing the three prestiges that were planned out and built into the ToD sets four years ago? You're happy with this weaksauce change rather than the long promised substantive prestiges that give clerics two viable paths other than healbotting? You're willing to give Turbine the thumbs-up for dropping the ball in so many ways on this, and for delivering so little when so much was promised over the years?

I could care less about cleric offensive prestiges tbh. If you care about them, which apparently you do, I hope that one day Turbine will satisfy your desire to play this type of toon. My comments were mostly in the nature of comparing the changes on lamma vs. live and not about what we didn't get that Turbine promised.

The aura is powerful, but nobody has seen fit to bring out the nerfbat in the past three years, so why make it harder to get and more costly? Compared to something like Endless Fusilade that artificers get in their first tier on live, is it really overpowered? Compared to the negative aura (just a spell slot) and undead form on necromancers, is it really something that needs to be made harder to get?

In comparison to negative aura:

-PM's have to spend a bunch of SP to use undead form
-Negative aura Costs SP to use, also it can't be meta'd for free
-Negative aura can only heal undead, which limits it to being able to currently only heal wizards for player characters
-Negative aura costs a spell slot
-Negative aura isn't affected by heal amp
-Negative aura will take charges off spell absorption items (maybe this is a bug I dunno, still a disadvantage when compared to healing aura)
-To benefit from Negative aura, wizards make a trade-off that involves being vulnerable to light damage. Also they currently have difficulty with stat damage due to the scarcity of harm scrolls or other ways to deal with the issue

-Clerics to not have to use a spell slot for healing aura
-Healing aura naturally recharges overtime, no cost to use really
-Healing aura can be meta'd for free
-Healing aura is affected by heal amp
-Every player character class in the game can be healed by healing aura
-There is basically no trade-off to using heal aura. It can be activated with basically 100% uptime at no cost at all.

Personally I consider healing aura to be a much stronger support skill than death aura simply because it's unlimited free healing. PMs are somewhat reliant on death aura to stay alive (in combo with neg burst), clerics have tons of tools at they're disposal that can keep an entire party alive without using heal aura at all.

As far as comparing to endless fusillade, apples and oranges. They are both really strong skills, perhaps a case could be made to justify making endless fusillade harder to get and perhaps Turbine will do exactly this.

Either way, when I said aura was strong, I didn't mean it was overpowered, or better than what other classes get, or needs a nerf. What I was getting at is that it is a really strong skill for level 12 and I see no issue with bringing more challenge to the game by making aura level 18 with a higher AP cost to acquire.

[Pape_27]

<snip>

I would like to see your cleric build. what is the name?


as for the op and topic at hand - personally I think Khimber is right on target. The build choices for cleric are being narrowed restrictively with this proposed NGE Enhancement pass. He has plainly pointed out that the cost of achieving a similar type build has been increased dramatically for very little if no benefit for the player.

I am very leery that things will be dramatically different from what we currently see. We keep hearing that this is just "alpha" but too often have we see things hit llama and never change regardless of the feedback given.

so far the NGE Enhancement pass is a big bucketful of fail.

[fink2008]

as for the op and topic at hand - personally I think Khimber is right on target. The build choices for cleric are being narrowed restrictively with this proposed NGE Enhancement pass. He has plainly pointed out that the cost of achieving a similar type build has been increased dramatically for very little if no benefit for the player.

-2 spell pen
-5 hp
-can't aura till 18
- -1 to hit and damage if you take 2 pts out of str to get heal skill
- heal skill giving more spell power than we currently have on live

this is restrictive?

I can understand the -2 spell pen being kinda crappy for those that like to cast offensive cc or instakill spells but really the rest is minor and will basically be not noticeable in game. If you are building a cleric where the -1 hit and damage matters, u can probably free up the 2 pts needed for int from another stat anyways.

IMO every cleric benefits from increased positive spellpower, "healbot" or not

Sure it could be less restrictive, sure we could have gotten offensive prestige(s), but what i'm getting at is it's barely different from live aside from the spell pen.

I would like to see your cleric build. what is the name?

I have more than one, 18 cleric (retired) 18/2rog, 9clr/4ftr, 20 cleric (deleted), i really couldn't be bothered to list you the specific build for each one since i only have one in the ddo planner thing and have no clue how to export it. The name of my toon is pretty irrelevant to the topic at hand.