So... Anyone else with a dead build now?

[Stanley_Nicholas]

What a stereotypically short sighted and closed minded thing for a 'Founder' to say. Have you considered the fact that there are MANY players that are just now cresting the VERY steep DDO learning curve? This is not a minor change that can be learned over time. This isn't a progressive step that people can add to existing knowledge. This isn't an addition to existing mechanics that can be picked up on ones own time. This an enormous, drastic change that many players will not understand and will have trouble adapting to. It may well BE time for them to find another game, and THAT IS NOT A GOOD THING. You may like the idea of a server that's empty except for you and your fellow Founders, but I don't think the lights will stay on if that's the case.

Now, I realize you've trolled me, and I realize I haven't contributed to thread, only to the flame, but honestly, try to have a longer view before bashing the people who will have to try to adapt to this new thing.

Believe me, it has nothing to do with being a Founder. I'm with you on this. It's not helpful to encourage others to leave the game, whether it's a player or Turbine doing it. The scope of this enhancement change is unlike almost anything DDO has seen before. To suggest it is comparable to the original enhancement revamp, nerfs to the Batman and stat damage, or changes to lava, is laughable. Each of those changes was much smaller scale, as well as justified; this one is not, at least as yet.

[EllisDee37]

Uhmmm....how do you know wizard splashes are dead? We haven't seen the wizard enhancements yet...

Three of the four classes currently on alpha are classes that have spell power lines on live. In every case, those spell power lines have been removed from alpha. There is no reason to believe they haven't been removed from arcanes as well.

[Vellrad]

Uhmmm....how do you know wizard splashes are dead? We haven't seen the wizard enhancements yet...

Same goes for multiclassing...we don't know yet what we can do...we haven't had all the options available to us.

And I made a battle cleric just fine that heals for 700hp (self healing) and melees in the 80-120 range on normal hits, wiht crits in the 3-400 range...not sure why you think they are dead....

The reason to splash wizard level is feat and 40 force spellpower for 1 AP.
Spellpower enhancements were removed for all classes we saw so far, so its safe to assume it will be removed for wizards, also, with 3 tree limit, you're losing fighter or healing or protection, even if by miracle there would be spellpower enhancement.
On the other hand, other classes giving free feat at lvl1, fighter and monk, will offer better benefit than wizard if 40 spellpower is removed.

[Aussir]

Oh noes... someone is waiving its "bad girl" bat at me... but they like to talk without even having seen what's going on... "classy"...



Anyway...

Uhmmm....how do you know wizard splashes are dead? We haven't seen the wizard enhancements yet...

According to the Devs and the changes they introduced, your spell power will now be based on the skill Spellcraft which is INT based on top of it. This change is for anyone with a blue bar, except maybe divines that instead, will have to pour into Heal skill.

So, if you have a blue bar and want any kind of Spell Power, you'll have to throw skill points into Spellcraft and not everyone has an immensity of skill points available, not to mention that it needs INT to further it up.
Now... INT isn't exactly "the" stat for everyone and every class even if it's useful to get some more skill points.

Top this with the fact that necromancy is increased by Heal as well and you have a fun "potpourri" of skills to get if you want to build say... a necromancer or someone who uses necro skills like Wail, Energy Drain or Necrotic Ray.

Add Wizard as a splash and unless you have skill points galore, you'll going to have to lose something in your skills to get any Spell Power.

I actually have no clue why make spell power based on a skill used to IDENTIFY SPELLS, ITEM MAGIC PROPERTIES and at later levels alchemical properties and potions. If anything, it would make more sense to replace UMD with this or use it to boost UMD.

But hey... it's Turbine and they rarely make any sense. Next we'll be using Lore as a base for attack bonus...

Same goes for multiclassing...we don't know yet what we can do...we haven't had all the options available to us.

For me, it's pretty much out as my main two classes are out for testing. I'm just waiting on Sorcerer to check out how the Devs intend to kill it.

The fact here is that, yes... this is an ALPHA... and this is exactly where we have to be vocal and tell them how much this reeks. Not when it's ready to go live. By then, it's set in stone and it won't be changed anymore.

And right now... this reeks so much that not even flies and maggots want to get near it.

[BOgre]

Three of the four classes currently on alpha are classes that have spell power lines on live. In every case, those spell power lines have been removed from alpha. There is no reason to believe they haven't been removed from arcanes as well.

Especially in light of the new spellpower skill, a direct correlation to the heal skill. IMO breaking enchancment lines out of the enhancment system, then reinserting them into the game via Skills further complicates matters, makes multiclassing more difficult, steepens the learning curve for the game, and provides more fertile ground for unexpected bugs to crop up in unforseen places. I'm picturing broken Orbs, broken GS items, broken Dragonmarks... in addition to the already broken Pale Masters and ToD rings. Still no answer on ToD rings btw... Does this invalidate the entire Amrath pack?

[EllisDee37]

To clarify, most (but not all) spellpower is being autogranted from trees on alpha. The skill-based spellpower is a supplement to the autogranted spell power.

[ArcaneArcher52689]

According to the Devs and the changes they introduced, your spell power will now be based on the skill Spellcraft which is INT based on top of it. This change is for anyone with a blue bar, except maybe divines that instead, will have to pour into Heal skill.

So, if you have a blue bar and want any kind of Spell Power, you'll have to throw skill points into Spellcraft and not everyone has an immensity of skill points available, not to mention that it needs INT to further it up.
Now... INT isn't exactly "the" stat for everyone and every class even if it's useful to get some more skill points.

Top this with the fact that necromancy is increased by Heal as well and you have a fun "potpourri" of skills to get if you want to build say... a necromancer or someone who uses necro skills like Wail, Energy Drain or Necrotic Ray.

Add Wizard as a splash and unless you have skill points galore, you'll going to have to lose something in your skills to get any Spell Power.

I actually have no clue why make spell power based on a skill used to IDENTIFY SPELLS, ITEM MAGIC PROPERTIES and at later levels alchemical properties and potions. If anything, it would make more sense to replace UMD with this or use it to boost UMD.

As far as arcanes go: arti, wizard, and bard will have no problems putting points into spellcraft, the only arcane that would have trouble is sorcerer. Which, for all we know, they took that into account developing the tree (not saying they did, but really doesn't do any good to complain before we see the product) And druids would also want the skill, but again, they have enough skill points that it shouldn't be *too* much of a pain.

Also, we haven't seen the necro spell tree, so once again, don't know what they might have added(keep in mind wizards didn't have a necro-spell power line to begin with, it was part of the PrE)

Now for divines, clerics/FvS will hurt, but I don't see them needing to spend points in both, but only if they incorporate light spell power into the heal skill (not exactly intuitive, but would at least cover the major damage lines)- non drow/humans would have issues, but hopefully, they can come up with something.

Druids on the other hand will probably need to put points into both, but i'll reserve judgement until we see their trees



Oh, and as for why they named it "Spellcraft", I doubt they took the name from the handbook. They probably just came up with "what do we name the skill that will enhance a person's spell damage?" Spellcraft is the first thing I would come up with.

[Aussir]

As far as arcanes go: arti, wizard, and bard will have no problems putting points into spellcraft, the only arcane that would have trouble is sorcerer. Which, for all we know, they took that into account developing the tree (not saying they did, but really doesn't do any good to complain before we see the product) And druids would also want the skill, but again, they have enough skill points that it shouldn't be *too* much of a pain.

Also, we haven't seen the necro spell tree, so once again, don't know what they might have added(keep in mind wizards didn't have a necro-spell power line to begin with, it was part of the PrE)

The fact that sorcerer isn't out yet is the reason why I'm reserving most of my judgement on Spellcraft until then. Right now though, without knowing how things are for non-INT based casters, it looks pretty grim.

As for negative energy being increased by Heal (and IIRC it's the only thing that increases negative energy spells, correct me if I'm wrong), that looks grim for anyone that has necro spells and doesn't have a lot of skill points to go around.

I will reserve my full judgement for when wiz/sorc are out though.

Now for divines, clerics/FvS will hurt, but I don't see them needing to spend points in both, but only if they incorporate light spell power into the heal skill (not exactly intuitive, but would at least cover the major damage lines)- non drow/humans would have issues, but hopefully, they can come up with something.

Druids on the other hand will probably need to put points into both, but i'll reserve judgement until we see their trees

As it stands right now, if you want to do any kind of damage with the (due to the right now non-existent enhancements) offensive spells, clerics/fvs have to invest in both. With the limited amount of skill points that they have, this comes down to "What do I nerf?". When you're playing a class that can't afford to get spells interrupted (concentration) every 2 seconds, this gets hairy...

Oh, and as for why they named it "Spellcraft", I doubt they took the name from the handbook. They probably just came up with "what do we name the skill that will enhance a person's spell damage?" Spellcraft is the first thing I would come up with.

I would just call it what it is... Spellpower... bu that's me. I still see no sense in this change to be honest. Sounds like jobsworths trying to show some work done...

[FZTopaz]

Careful. You are not agree with the doom mentality and you will therefore be personally attacked and labeled a fanboi. I stated very much the same type of thing and have become the punching bag.

I find myself never getting caught up in the doom mentality. It's ridiculous. One little tiny thing changes that makes all the super uber gamers have to learn something new and they can't steamroll EE naked solo anymore, so they have to complain that the world is ending....yet I see more people online than ever!

Edit: Wow...thanks for the neg rep!

[smatt]

Founders have seen an enhancement makeover once before from a you only get 4 to the system currently available on line. There were people then that called for the doom of the game with that change. Players adapted and thrived since. Remember when the change to lava was going to be gamebreaking? Did not break the game. The change to stat damage not causing insta-killing, AKA the wounding/puncturing nerf, was to be the death of DDO. DDO still goes on and has expanded sense. Barbarians with critical rage was changed and many thought it was the death of DPS. One flavor of the month was destroyed, many others were installed. That is the problem with a flavor of the month build, eventually it will be changed. Batman anyone? The exploiter build?

Actually stating that the players will adapt is a very long term outlook; whereas the doom saying is very short sighted. People are spouting doom and the death of characters before even a majority of the new system has been deployed, and not to mention the fact that the current ALPHA testing is purposefully steep as stated by Mal himself. Again, the doomsayers have no long term outlook only immediate impact; whereas those stating players will adapt or that there are positives in the changes is very progressive long term thinking.

An enhancement system where it is possible to have multiple prestige classes at once, is a positive.

Not a single one of the changes you noted even comes closee to the sweeping impact of this one. So you can lump anybody who thinks the overall design decision here and the people who had early input into it are barking up the wrong tree into one group.... But you will be wrong.... Over a full year into this "project" and this is where it's at... When they answer soem of the basic questions that have been posed by people after this initial Lama release with concrete answers more will be known......

[EllisDee37]

I find myself never getting caught up in the doom mentality. It's ridiculous. One little tiny thing changes that makes all the super uber gamers have to learn something new and they can't steamroll EE naked solo anymore, so they have to complain that the world is ending....yet I see more people online than ever!

This is not "one little tiny thing," I am nowhere near a super uber gamer, and I've never set foot in EE.

[waryJerry]

And we wonder why It took the devs so long to present us with a model of the upcoming enhancement revision.

[chanw4]

Erm, its a bit too early to cry doom for this change.

Spellpower are auto grant on spending points into the tree. Spellcraft is not the only way to gain spellpower.

PM tree might be good for necro wizard for all we know, they might dont even need to touch the heal skill at all to gain a lot of negative spell power like the cleric autogrant, it gives 1.5 positive SP instead of 1. what stops them from granting 1.5 SP per point spent? what stops them from adding the SP gain from spellcraft to negative SP at the tier 5 or capstone enahcnement?

[smatt]

Erm, its a bit too early to cry doom for this change.

Spellpower are auto grant on spending points into the tree. Spellcraft is not the only way to gain spellpower.

PM tree might be good for necro wizard for all we know, they might dont even need to touch the heal skill at all to gain a lot of negative spell power like the cleric autogrant, it gives 1.5 positive SP instead of 1. what stops them from granting 1.5 SP per point spent? what stops them from adding the SP gain from spellcraft to negative SP at the tier 5 or capstone enahcnement?

I don't see anybody crying at all.. Except for the sniffers that is... All I see are people pointing out some of the issues they have with the very basis of the new system...... In it's VERY early form.... Of course the sniffers will exagerate it into peopel crying doom... But that's OK.... Iknwo it makes it more dramatic for them.

[BoondocksMike]

Rage.

Seriously. Only reason to play DDO is the deep character customization tools. Don't dumb them down for newer players.

exactly, the ONLY reason for me at this point, if i am not going to get that well then i will just go play some other game in which i am forced into a much smaller number of play styles based on what class i choose at lvl 1, but with which i am currently less frustrated

[BoondocksMike]

I find myself never getting caught up in the doom mentality. It's ridiculous. One little tiny thing changes that makes all the super uber gamers have to learn something new and they can't steamroll EE naked solo anymore, so they have to complain that the world is ending....yet I see more people online than ever!

this is not a tiny thing (how could this possibly be a "tiny" thing?), its basically changing the most essential thing about ddo and the main reason i like playing it, build and style diversity. from what i have seen of the new changes it is looking to me like pure or nearly pure builds are going to be the vast majority (i would say only but i want to leave myself with some breathing room for when you of the anti-doom opinion begin responding) of all builds that will actually be useable. its a good thing that these changes are not final and are hopefully still being edited because as i see it they can only improve.

yes when a change occurs people will figure out new strategies to be more effective at whatever they want to do in the game but, by making multiclassing and build diversification less prevalent/worth while i find myself being more unwilling to make those changes in ddo as opposed to another game, not that im going to quit ddo right this second but much of the appeal that the game had for me is looking likes its disappearing

edit:
i like the current enhancement system, though it is not perfect (missing and unfinished PrEs) i think it works well, i feel that most of my action points spent were spent where i wanted to spend them and not wasted on prereqs that i didnt care for, and its not a ladder where i can only cimb up one rung at a time frcing me to make certain decisions i might not otherwise make. i dont see that there is really anything wrong with the system currently in place and that it is one of the better aspects of ddo, why go in and change that completely?

[FZTopaz]

this is not a tiny thing (how could this possibly be a "tiny" thing?), its basically changing the most essential thing about ddo and the main reason i like playing it, build and style diversity. from what i have seen of the new changes it is looking to me like pure or nearly pure builds are going to be the vast majority (i would say only but i want to leave myself with some breathing room for when you of the anti-doom opinion begin responding) of all builds that will actually be useable. its a good thing that these changes are not final and are hopefully still being edited because as i see it they can only improve.

yes when a change occurs people will figure out new strategies to be more effective at whatever they want to do in the game but, by making multiclassing and build diversification less prevalent/worth while i find myself being more unwilling to make those changes in ddo as opposed to another game, not that im going to quit ddo right this second but much of the appeal that the game had for me is looking likes its disappearing

Sorry, I have yet to see that this destroy's multiclassing. I made a viable battle cleric who is self healing and good melee, a 2 Ranger/2 fighter/16 Arti Juggernaut style build that was perfectly viable. I've also done a couple splashes.

Heck, even my 2 fighter/18 Paladin was viable without taking a single paladin enhancement.

I have YET to find a shred of evidence that character customization is gone. Is it different? Yes, completely. Are there changes that need to be made? Yes, definitely! Are some things laid out in weird ways or cost too much? Yes, absolutely! But, is there even the slightest shred of evidence that points to multiclassing being taken out or not being viable...especially considering it is barely affected now and we haven't seen the other classes.

[DeafeningWhisper]

Sorry, I have yet to see that this destroy's multiclassing. I made a viable battle cleric who is self healing and good melee, a 2 Ranger/2 fighter/16 Arti Juggernaut style build that was perfectly viable. I've also done a couple splashes.

Heck, even my 2 fighter/18 Paladin was viable without taking a single paladin enhancement.

I have YET to find a shred of evidence that character customization is gone. Is it different? Yes, completely. Are there changes that need to be made? Yes, definitely! Are some things laid out in weird ways or cost too much? Yes, absolutely! But, is there even the slightest shred of evidence that points to multiclassing being taken out or not being viable...especially considering it is barely affected now and we haven't seen the other classes.

So... 58 aps for racial AA is not proof enough that as things stand *now* the builds using elf for AA are gone? What do you need? A hand that comes out of your screen and slaps you when you pick elf as your toon's race?

[RedHost]

Sorry, I have yet to see that this destroy's multiclassing. I made a viable battle cleric who is self healing and good melee, a 2 Ranger/2 fighter/16 Arti Juggernaut style build that was perfectly viable. I've also done a couple splashes.

Heck, even my 2 fighter/18 Paladin was viable without taking a single paladin enhancement.

I would be interested in hearing more about what 'viable' means in this circumstance.

[Aussir]

Sorry, I have yet to see that this destroy's multiclassing. I made a viable battle cleric who is self healing and good melee, a 2 Ranger/2 fighter/16 Arti Juggernaut style build that was perfectly viable. I've also done a couple splashes.

Heck, even my 2 fighter/18 Paladin was viable without taking a single paladin enhancement.

I have YET to find a shred of evidence that character customization is gone. Is it different? Yes, completely. Are there changes that need to be made? Yes, definitely! Are some things laid out in weird ways or cost too much? Yes, absolutely! But, is there even the slightest shred of evidence that points to multiclassing being taken out or not being viable...especially considering it is barely affected now and we haven't seen the other classes.

Please go make something like 12/6/2 and come back to us.
Oh, and while you're at it, play with races and their racials and then come back to us.
And while you're at that too, try to build something actually useful instead of "viable" and come back to us.