So... Anyone else with a dead build now?

[smatt]

You *do* realize this is my feedback on what I know is only the alpha right? I would *love* to give feedback on the more thought out, less restrictive, multiclass friendly polished builds, but guess what it's not available...

I can only speak on what I can see, and what I can see kills my builds. I want the devs and player to know this so they can react *NOW* as to fix this in the future versions of the enhancement pass.


P.S. On what is quoted above, Varg speaks of the racial core not requiring AP spent and not racial class, meaning the 17 to unlock it may be WAI.

Oh stop it with reality.... It messes with the "It's how they designed it, so it MUST be great folks.....

[Flavilandile]

My Kensai III AA, I logged into Lamland to see what my elf ftr18 arty 1 ranger 1 would look like with the new enhancement system.

I can no longer get Kensai enhanced crit range AND slaying arrows (both 41 needed into a tree), pretty much making the whole point of the build mute, anyone else see the core of their build gone?

Well consider that Clerics can't be Radiant Servant II and get back their current Cleric Capstone ( RSII requires 42 in the Healing tree, and Divine Intervention requires 40 in the Protection tree ).

So a Pure Cleric Build ends up broken or nerfed, or gimped, or whatever you want to call it...
Consequences on Multiclassing will be... Interesting, but I suspect that if it stay that way it's going to kill a lot of builds... if not seriously damage DDO.

[Sonos]

Just want to avoid this as much as possible(great game for it's time but not what long term players of DDO really want):

[smatt]

Well consider that Clerics can't be Radiant Servant II and get back their current Cleric Capstone ( RSII requires 42 in the Healing tree, and Divine Intervention requires 40 in the Protection tree ).

So a Pure Cleric Build ends up broken or nerfed, or gimped, or whatever you want to call it...
Consequences on Multiclassing will be... Interesting, but I suspect that if it stay that way it's going to kill a lot of builds... if not seriously damage DDO.

Well to be fair.. They did say the AP costs were set high at this point and would very likely go down. My concern is more all the missing offensive casting enhancements for clerics... Yes, completely missing... With no comments on whether it's intended, will be left that way, unfinished, overlooked, etc...... To me that's removal of the core aspects.... Not simply a power curve adjustment. There's no doubt that included with this enhancement pass there will be adjustments up and down the scale as far as the overall power of various classes/builds. Which of course will cause great rage amongst many... But this highlights one of the biggest mistakes the DDO Devs have been makign for a long time. That's leaving overpowered, exploitable, tweakable, functions in the game for far too long. Allowing players to get used to and dependant upon them....

At least on the face of it, as they say they're starting low and working up intentionally so as not to have ot "take toys away" as the enhancements move forward within the development process. Let's hope that things like the missing divine offensive enhancements are actually going to show up...

Of course according to someone else.. A pure 20 cleric is a "Flavor of the month build"

I've always been more of a pure class build type..... In that spalsh builds are far too powerful, as comparatively speaking... BUT.... I don't think they should destroy multi-classing either....


We shall see when more is revealed....

[BOgre]

it is past time for you to find another game.

What a stereotypically short sighted and closed minded thing for a 'Founder' to say. Have you considered the fact that there are MANY players that are just now cresting the VERY steep DDO learning curve? This is not a minor change that can be learned over time. This isn't a progressive step that people can add to existing knowledge. This isn't an addition to existing mechanics that can be picked up on ones own time. This an enormous, drastic change that many players will not understand and will have trouble adapting to. It may well BE time for them to find another game, and THAT IS NOT A GOOD THING. You may like the idea of a server that's empty except for you and your fellow Founders, but I don't think the lights will stay on if that's the case.

Now, I realize you've trolled me, and I realize I haven't contributed to thread, only to the flame, but honestly, try to have a longer view before bashing the people who will have to try to adapt to this new thing.

[smatt]

What a stereotypically short sighted and closed minded thing for a 'Founder' to say. Have you considered the fact that there are MANY players that are just now cresting the VERY steep DDO learning curve? This is not a minor change that can be learned over time. This isn't a progressive step that people can add to existing knowledge. This isn't an addition to existing mechanics that can be picked up on ones own time. This an enormous, drastic change that many players will not understand and will have trouble adapting to. It may well BE time for them to find another game, and THAT IS NOT A GOOD THING. You may like the idea of a server that's empty except for you and your fellow Founders, but I don't think the lights will stay on if that's the case.

Now, I realize you've trolled me, and I realize I haven't contributed to thread, only to the flame, but honestly, try to have a longer view before bashing the people who will have to try to adapt to this new thing.

Exactly.... While I do see that at least the Dev team recognizes the possible impacts of such a sweeping change within the core of the game, and are putting it out there VERY early in the development cycle. What I'm seeing so far from it is something that is going to frustrate enough of the current players long and short term, they will simply leave....With zero benefit for a game as old as DDO to draw in a significantly larger portion of new players.

Hey who knows though... Only time will tell as this process matures... But at this point I stand by "What I can see is manure".....

[Lerincho]

<snipped due to rudeness> This is not a minor change that can be learned over time. This isn't a progressive step that people can add to existing knowledge. This isn't an addition to existing mechanics that can be picked up on ones own time. This an enormous, drastic change that many players will not understand and will have trouble adapting to. It may well BE time for them to find another game, and THAT IS NOT A GOOD THING. You may like the idea of a server that's empty except for you and your fellow Founders, but I don't think the lights will stay on if that's the case.

Founders have seen an enhancement makeover once before from a you only get 4 to the system currently available on line. There were people then that called for the doom of the game with that change. Players adapted and thrived since. Remember when the change to lava was going to be gamebreaking? Did not break the game. The change to stat damage not causing insta-killing, AKA the wounding/puncturing nerf, was to be the death of DDO. DDO still goes on and has expanded sense. Barbarians with critical rage was changed and many thought it was the death of DPS. One flavor of the month was destroyed, many others were installed. That is the problem with a flavor of the month build, eventually it will be changed. Batman anyone? The exploiter build?

Actually stating that the players will adapt is a very long term outlook; whereas the doom saying is very short sighted. People are spouting doom and the death of characters before even a majority of the new system has been deployed, and not to mention the fact that the current ALPHA testing is purposefully steep as stated by Mal himself. Again, the doomsayers have no long term outlook only immediate impact; whereas those stating players will adapt or that there are positives in the changes is very progressive long term thinking.

An enhancement system where it is possible to have multiple prestige classes at once, is a positive.

[DeafeningWhisper]

Founders have seen an enhancement makeover once before from a you only get 4 to the system currently available on line. There were people then that called for the doom of the game with that change. Players adapted and thrived since. Remember when the change to lava was going to be gamebreaking? Did not break the game. The change to stat damage not causing insta-killing, AKA the wounding/puncturing nerf, was to be the death of DDO. DDO still goes on and has expanded sense. Barbarians with critical rage was changed and many thought it was the death of DPS. One flavor of the month was destroyed, many others were installed. That is the problem with a flavor of the month build, eventually it will be changed. Batman anyone? The exploiter build?

Actually stating that the players will adapt is a very long term outlook; whereas the doom saying is very short sighted. People are spouting doom and the death of characters before even a majority of the new system has been deployed, and not to mention the fact that the current ALPHA testing is purposefully steep as stated by Mal himself. Again, the doomsayers have no long term outlook only immediate impact; whereas those stating players will adapt or that there are positives in the changes is very progressive long term thinking.

An enhancement system where it is possible to have multiple prestige classes at once, is a positive.

Again, I'm "spouting doom" as you call it to make sure people (devs and player a like) know what I see as a step in the wrong direction concerning the pass.

The sooner we point out the flaws the more time they have to fix them or the more time we get to get used to the changes or leave for other games as you seem to want.

Also please stop with the "flavor of the month" stuff, even pure builds are poorer in this implementation of the pass...


P.S. How is wait and see how the final version looks like before "spouting doom" gonna help in any way shape or form? They want our feedback *now* when it's ready to be released will far too late to start pointing out the flaws and implementing change, all the "very progressive long term thinking" (by the way you spelled "wishful thinking" wrong here) won't change that...

[Lerincho]

P.S. How is wait and see how the final version looks like before "spouting doom" gonna help in any way shape or form? They want our feedback *now* when it's ready to be released will far too late to start pointing out the flaws and implementing change, all the "very progressive long term thinking" (by the way you spelled "wishful thinking" wrong here) won't change that...

Doom does not equal feedback. It provides nothing concrete that the QA or Development team can work with. BY all mean provide feedback, but make it constructive feedback that provides them something to work with. "Well all my characters are useless." provides them with nothing. Perhaps if people spent more time actually testing instead of learning the quickest/simplest ways to do things in this game, perhaps quality of play would be higher. As it is, people get to Lamannia purely to learn the quest and how to get the goodies first, not to test and help find bugs.

Want to provide feedback? Stop doomsaying and give constructive feedback.

Do make sure to keep you trolling skills up-to-date as your spelling nazi-ism is well appreciated. Do you correct Smatt for all his spelling errors too or just the people that disagree with you?

[DeafeningWhisper]

Doom does not equal feedback. It provides nothing concrete that the QA or Development team can work with. BY all mean provide feedback, but make it constructive feedback that provides them something to work with. "Well all my characters are useless." provides them with nothing. Perhaps if people spent more time actually testing instead of learning the quickest/simplest ways to do things in this game, perhaps quality of play would be higher. As it is, people get to Lamannia purely to learn the quest and how to get the goodies first, not to test and help find bugs.

Want to provide feedback? Stop doomsaying and give constructive feedback.

Do make sure to keep you trolling skills up-to-date as your spelling nazi-ism is well appreciated. Do you correct Smatt for all his spelling errors too or just the people that disagree with you?

I've given feedback, also the grammar bit was joke, sheesh...

P.S. Chekc the AP tier pre-reqs thread and my other thread on this page for feedback, actually the only one who has given no feedback on the subject other then "everyone else is whining" is you.

[Lerincho]

I've given feedback, also the grammar bit was joke, sheesh...

P.S. Chekc the AP tier pre-reqs thread and my other thread on this page for feedback, actually the only one who has given no feedback on the subject other then "everyone else is whining" is you.

Thank you for yet another personal attack, it delights me to know that I can provide entertainment for you. You are correct, I have not given any feedback, and the reason is because my Lamannia client has been unable to connect like many others. Providing feedback without first hand knowledge would be ignorant. Once Turbine fixes the connection issue that many others have complained about, I will be happy to provide feedback.

Please feel free to troll me more, and personally insult me. You must be the grand prize winner of the internet.

[oweieie]

It's not the AP cost of individual enhancements that kills multiclassing. It's the "points spent in tree" that kills multiclassing. That's a fundamental shift that radically reduces choices to a ridiculous degree.

And they have a tree because some manager drew a box and said, "IT SHALL LOOK LIKE THIS!" and poof. So trees can only have X number of enhancements across and so the number of enhancements that can have no pre-req becomes X. Despite the fact that this is really really really stupid and makes no sense and doesn't work for many/most trees, it looks nice in some managers head and so it is.

[EllisDee37]

You are correct, I have not given any feedback, and the reason is because my Lamannia client has been unable to connect like many others. Providing feedback without first hand knowledge would be ignorant. Once Turbine fixes the connection issue that many others have complained about, I will be happy to provide feedback.

No need to wallow in ignorance; you can see the enhancements here.

[FZTopaz]

Who got killed?

1. WIZARD SPLASHES
Absolutely pointless now, better take monk or ftr splash instead.

2. [b]ORIGINAL MULTICLASSING[b/]
With 3 tree limit and removal many enhancements, multiclassing for enancements (taking ftr for haste boost, wizard for impulse etc) is no longer possible. Also, many famous multiclass builds will probably be worthless, or at best, heavily nerfed.

3. NON HJEALBOT/NANNYBOT CLERICS
With new 80 points into healing tree to have same spellpower as before, mentioned multiclass nerf, and removal of enancements like divine might, clerics are now hireling class.

Uhmmm....how do you know wizard splashes are dead? We haven't seen the wizard enhancements yet...

Same goes for multiclassing...we don't know yet what we can do...we haven't had all the options available to us.

And I made a battle cleric just fine that heals for 700hp (self healing) and melees in the 80-120 range on normal hits, wiht crits in the 3-400 range...not sure why you think they are dead....

[Lerincho]

No need to wallow in ignorance; you can see the enhancements here.

Thank you for your attempt to educate me; however, as stated in my quote you put, I will wait until I can experience first hand instead of relying on second hand information.

[Lerincho]

Uhmmm....how do you know wizard splashes are dead? We haven't seen the wizard enhancements yet...

Same goes for multiclassing...we don't know yet what we can do...we haven't had all the options available to us.

And I made a battle cleric just fine that heals for 700hp (self healing) and melees in the 80-120 range on normal hits, wiht crits in the 3-400 range...not sure why you think they are dead....

Careful. You are not agree with the doom mentality and you will therefore be personally attacked and labeled a fanboi. I stated very much the same type of thing and have become the punching bag.

[DeafeningWhisper]

Thank you for yet another personal attack, it delights me to know that I can provide entertainment for you. You are correct, I have not given any feedback, and the reason is because my Lamannia client has been unable to connect like many others. Providing feedback without first hand knowledge would be ignorant. Once Turbine fixes the connection issue that many others have complained about, I will be happy to provide feedback.

Please feel free to troll me more, and personally insult me. You must be the grand prize winner of the internet.

?! When did I insult you? I'm pointing out you give no feedback, and you explain why in the above, which I only said answering the fact you said *I* gave no feedback other then "doomsaying"...

You yourself agree that you couldn't have given any feedback seen how you're unable to log, could you point out the personal insult?

[EllisDee37]

Thank you for your attempt to educate me; however, as stated in my quote you put, I will wait until I can experience first hand instead of relying on second hand information.

So you've never used wiki as a reference for enhancements on live before? Or for anything? After all, that's equally second hand info.

[Lerincho]

So you've never used wiki as a reference for enhancements on live before? Or for anything? After all, that's equally second hand info.

Correct, I have never referenced wiki prior to my own personal experiences with new content; whether on Lam or live. I go based of what is in release notes when new builds are introduced and my own experiences within each environments. This allows me to have a non-jade frame of mind when going into testing or actual execution.

[DeafeningWhisper]

Uhmmm....how do you know wizard splashes are dead? We haven't seen the wizard enhancements yet...

Same goes for multiclassing...we don't know yet what we can do...we haven't had all the options available to us.

And I made a battle cleric just fine that heals for 700hp (self healing) and melees in the 80-120 range on normal hits, wiht crits in the 3-400 range...not sure why you think they are dead....

I wouldn't know about cleric and wizard, but as far as multiclassing goes when the build factors in race class enhancements its a pretty bad deal right now.

You need 17 ap in race core tree to unlock race class tree, 41 point in said tree which leaves 22 AP for your other 2 trees.

Basically unlocking your race class tree locks you out of your main class trees almost completely, making the choice of race for the class build a horrible investment. My 2 archers are elf for the AA racial, but getting it means abandoning the rest now, hence the "dead build", a Kensai AA that can't get half the Kensai tree or a bardcher that can't buff or heal properly.

I'm not saying they won't fix it, I'm not saying I may not work to fit the new mold, all I'm saying is that as things stand *right now* I can't make these 2 builds work anymore.

Other builds suffer a bit as well from the spellcraft and Heal mechanic as well...