So... Anyone else with a dead build now?

[Cade_Wells]

erm how can people say 10k stars is dead when the monk enchancements aren't even being shown yet???? or am i totally missing something?

[EllisDee37]

erm how can people say 10k stars is dead when the monk enchancements aren't even being shown yet???? or am i totally missing something?

Those with monk splashes can see (but not interact with) the monk tree, meaning they can read the "rank 1" description of all the monk abilities.

The monk tree they can see is full to the brim; no open holes where missing lines could be added.

[mystafyi]

Especially considering the developers have already stated that AP costs are purposefully high to begin with and will be getting reduced. So many people overreacting and spreading drama though I suppose that's part of why I like the forums.

I am sure it was stated by varg in the lamma chat that AP costs would NOT go down. sorry cant link that.

[Menace13]

[QUOTE=EnjoyTheJourney;4983211

Then, instead of easing off in other ways that the system used to restrict player choice, to leave build diversity in a better place or at least the same place, the new, extra sources of complexity further restrict build diversity, end of story.[/QUOTE]

Build diversity is a complex feature or it would be generic builds. The new trees I have seen published here are all doing less for more, totally omitting splash features, or increasing their total ap spent prerequisites, eliminating enhances, forcing abilities into Int based skill points.

They rolled out something that many people dislike in alpha, which is the opposite reaction of like, obv. A bad change is called a downgrade. Shouldn't everyone be excited for and look forward to the new upgrades to a product line?

[AZgreentea]

Meh. Builds come and go. When I started playing you would have been laughed off the forums if you had told someone you were going to splash Monk instead of Rogue. Tanking had everything to do with TWF DPS. Reincarnation? Fogetaboutit! If you wanted to fix your newly gimped build you had to limp to lvl 20 and hope to TR or delete and re roll.

Now, thanks to things like reincarnation, an enhancement pass is an exciting opportunity to rebuild the old, instead of total destruction of all your hard work.

You kids these days have it easy...

[Postumus]

Kind of ironic that a system intended to simplify and provide more options is actually more complicated and leads to fewer character design choices overall.

I see fewer multi-class design choices, but I'm also seeing more design choices within a class than previously. Hard to say if there will be more or fewer choices in the end because it is still extremely premature to make a final judgement when we've only seen the tip of the Alpha.

I'm sure the cookie cutter min/maxers will dislike these changes the most. They've certainly been the most vocal so far.

[Postumus]

Build diversity is a complex feature or it would be generic builds. The new trees I have seen published here are all doing less for more, totally omitting splash features, or increasing their total ap spent prerequisites, eliminating enhances, forcing abilities into Int based skill points.

You aren't looking hard enough. Or at least not looking at the new thing with new eyes.


People screamed and screamed that monk splashes were dead after U14 or 17 (can't remember which) and then you had monkchers cropping up and still had clonks running around. Shiradi was a HORRIBLE destiny only useful for rangers, now Shiradi casters are OP. Etc, etc, etc.


Rather than complaining about how the new thing isn't the old thing or what you wanted the new thing to be, it would be constructive to participate in the enhancement threads with what SPECIFICALLY you like and don't like about the new system. It isn't going away, that's for sure, so rather than vague rants and complaints, you MIGHT have a chance to affect the system with constructive SPECIFIC feedback.

[Sonos]

Meh. Builds come and go. When I started playing you would have been laughed off the forums if you had told someone you were going to splash Monk instead of Rogue. Tanking had everything to do with TWF DPS. Reincarnation? Fogetaboutit! If you wanted to fix your newly gimped build you had to limp to lvl 20 and hope to TR or delete and re roll.

Now, thanks to things like reincarnation, an enhancement pass is an exciting opportunity to rebuild the old, instead of total destruction of all your hard work.

You kids these days have it easy...

Get off my lawn! *shakes fist.

What you are talking about is progress(reincarnation). What the rest of the thread is pondering is regress. Probably more accurately, a paradigm shift, but to some people's favorite builds it seems regressive so far. Multi-class is a huge boon to keeping players around for the long term. I do appreciate the buffs to classes that needed them, but AP for some of the established multi builds seems thus far to be quite spendy and un-achievable. I'm not casting my vote this early in the game but so far the weather outlook looks partly sunny with a chance of doom(for some).


Personally, I would be more comfortable with a toggle menu that let's you use the old enhancement system and if you are new and or enjoy some of what the new system has to offer then you could select it. This obviously would not work but how sweet it would be if you wanted to be a pure ranger, use the new system, if you enjoyed your helf AA monk archer build use the old.

[Airgeadlam]

Several of my builds, as far as I could see in Lama. When I heard of "enhancement pass" with "skill trees" and such, I thought of something along the lines of EDs. Same basic enhancements with a new look, maybe one or two changes here and there to refresh some race or another. Not a "Let's build a new generic game" thing.

I know it's an alpha, but since the alpha is what I saw, it is based upon the alpha's features which I will comment. General taste? I mostly dislike it.

Felt a lot WoW-like, and by that I mean... When I tried WoW, years ago, I found its skill trees with lots of skills and this and that. "Choices! That's good, lots of choices to build your toon". It was a trap. If you want a viable InsertToonHere then you HAVE to pick this, and this, and that, and also that and NOTHING else. Period. See all the other options? Cosmetic ones. Do not touch. And the impression the alpha gave to me was something like that. "Let's see the stalwart defender options"... S&B only. Great, there goes my monk/fighter and my fighter. Let's hope DoS enhancements don't work that way too, or there goes my paladin. Also, the Stalwart line was in my thought for the last life of my main toon and now it is out of the equation as well. So... 4 toons in a row.

Haven't checked the cleric enhancements, but some people are worried about (again) clerics being forced to "heal only" role. If that's the case, then my cleric (wanted to TR into cleric splash) is screwed as well.

Spring boost/Haste boost/etc missing? That's not a great thing either. Several of the enhancements I had to take to progress in the trees were useless to my builds. I was being forced to select things I didn't want, just to reach the "Need X points spent" quota. Didn't like some of the AP costs either.

It is too soon to decide, but well, if this scenario, without changes (so just a hypothesis) i would just let my vip expire, not buying the new expansion, and searching for another thing to play. Let's hope they think twice what they're doing-

[DrNuegebauer]

making the whole point of the build mute

I think you meant 'moot'.

Unless the point of the build is not to talk?


But yes, agreed with the basic premise of the thread, too many build points required in trees. Should be opening up MORE customisation with the pass, not LESS.

[Theolin]

It's not the AP cost of individual enhancements that kills multiclassing. It's the "points spent in tree" that kills multiclassing. That's a fundamental shift that radically reduces choices to a ridiculous degree.

^^ this

And the new way spell power is working .... no matter how I try I end up with about 1/2 of what I had before with more cost (multi class builds)

[arkonas]

i love how everyone is whining when it was an alpha model that literally just came out. the ap costs were not set in stone. does anyone besides me actually read the dev tracker? did anyone forget they say do lots of bug reports. meaning if it doesnt seem right say something.

we mentioned rangers didnt get devotion then guess what later they said it would be included. so instead of complaining about something. lets help make the system better. I have done my part have you or are you the types just to not say anything? i love how everyone says multiclass is dead and you havent even seen the polished versions yet. *face palm* lets wait for all of it to be out with all abilities and reduced costs then say something.

Vargouille Vargouille is offline
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Default
We intend to restore positive spellpower (devotion) to Rangers in some form.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
I see you need to have 5 levels of ranger to qualify for tier 5. what does that translate into as far as what minimum level you be at that time? 18 like current Tempest III?
Tier 5 requires roughly level 10-11.

SqueakofDoom SqueakofDoom is offline
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Default A quick update on the Enhancements
Thank you for all of your feedback so far, and please keep telling us what you think! I am excited to have so many people contributing to this effort. This is a HUGE change to the game, so your comments are important. There are many ways to give us your feedback: The forums, Surveys, and Bugs (please remember to list Lamannia as the server when reporting bugs).

I would like to comment on some feedback I have observed:

• Yes, the restrictions currently in place are limiting. We need your feedback to help us determine what needs to be adjusted. Obviously finding the correct balance of freedoms and restrictions is important, and we want you to help us find that balance. Go here to view the current restrictions (I will keep this page updated as things get adjusted). Fill out the General Class Enhancement Survey and the General Racial Enhancement Survey! Let us know which particular restrictions are the most painful for you! I am using these surveys to compare your feedback on the restrictions from week to week.

• While you probably will not be able to re-create the build you currently have on live, I know you can make AWESOME builds with this new system. Please take the time to see what you can create with what is currently available. I know you have spent a lot of time building your characters on Live. I would appreciate it if you would take the same care and effort while testing out this new system.

• We know that the new Enhancements change many things for you. You should receive a Free Lesser Reincarnation when the old Enhancements are automatically reset so that you can respec your character. We wanted to verify that this system works, so characters on Lamannia (those with old Enhancements that got reset) should have a Free LR.

• BUG the BUGS! We have a BRAND NEW SYSTEM! It does not eat bugs like the old one. You should be burying Gazebo in bugs. Your bugs are very important to us and will help us make the Enhancements better! A few additional notes on bugs:

All Racial Core Enhancements SHOULD NOT require any points spent in the tree to obtain them (ie: at level 20 you should be able to spend points on all Racial Core Enhancements). If your Racial Tree Core Enhancements do require points spent in the tree, please bug it!
If a particular Enhancement is giving you a much larger bonus on live please bug it!
If a particular Enhancement seems too expensive, please bug it!
Essentially, If you think it could possibly be a bug PLEASE BUG IT! Sure, some things may be working as intended, but it is far better for us to look into a bug and make that decision than for us to never hear about the bug that is really a bug.


Smiles,
Squeak

So lets just point whatever we think isnt right. actually wait for a new build before jumping the gun.

[EllisDee37]

It's right there in your quotes:

• While you probably will not be able to re-create the build you currently have on live, I know you can make AWESOME builds with this new system.

Why can't "the build you currently have on live" be recreated? Because there's too much build diversity on live to support them all. If you pare down your various builds to their essences, you can make a similar build in the new enhancements. There's just fewer ways to do it.

[DeafeningWhisper]

i love how everyone is whining when it was an alpha model that literally just came out. the ap costs were not set in stone. does anyone besides me actually read the dev tracker? did anyone forget they say do lots of bug reports. meaning if it doesnt seem right say something.

we mentioned rangers didnt get devotion then guess what later they said it would be included. so instead of complaining about something. lets help make the system better. I have done my part have you or are you the types just to not say anything? i love how everyone says multiclass is dead and you havent even seen the polished versions yet. *face palm* lets wait for all of it to be out with all abilities and reduced costs then say something.

Vargouille Vargouille is offline
Developer

Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Flying overhead
Posts: 435
Vargouille the TrustworthyVargouille the TrustworthyVargouille the TrustworthyVargouille the TrustworthyVargouille the TrustworthyVargouille the TrustworthyVargouille the TrustworthyVargouille the TrustworthyVargouille the Trustworthy
Default
We intend to restore positive spellpower (devotion) to Rangers in some form.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qhualor View Post
I see you need to have 5 levels of ranger to qualify for tier 5. what does that translate into as far as what minimum level you be at that time? 18 like current Tempest III?
Tier 5 requires roughly level 10-11.

SqueakofDoom SqueakofDoom is offline
Lamannia Coordinator

Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: The End of the Universe - The view is great!
Posts: 258
SqueakofDoom the NotedSqueakofDoom the NotedSqueakofDoom the NotedSqueakofDoom the Noted
Default A quick update on the Enhancements
Thank you for all of your feedback so far, and please keep telling us what you think! I am excited to have so many people contributing to this effort. This is a HUGE change to the game, so your comments are important. There are many ways to give us your feedback: The forums, Surveys, and Bugs (please remember to list Lamannia as the server when reporting bugs).

I would like to comment on some feedback I have observed:

• Yes, the restrictions currently in place are limiting. We need your feedback to help us determine what needs to be adjusted. Obviously finding the correct balance of freedoms and restrictions is important, and we want you to help us find that balance. Go here to view the current restrictions (I will keep this page updated as things get adjusted). Fill out the General Class Enhancement Survey and the General Racial Enhancement Survey! Let us know which particular restrictions are the most painful for you! I am using these surveys to compare your feedback on the restrictions from week to week.

• While you probably will not be able to re-create the build you currently have on live, I know you can make AWESOME builds with this new system. Please take the time to see what you can create with what is currently available. I know you have spent a lot of time building your characters on Live. I would appreciate it if you would take the same care and effort while testing out this new system.

• We know that the new Enhancements change many things for you. You should receive a Free Lesser Reincarnation when the old Enhancements are automatically reset so that you can respec your character. We wanted to verify that this system works, so characters on Lamannia (those with old Enhancements that got reset) should have a Free LR.

• BUG the BUGS! We have a BRAND NEW SYSTEM! It does not eat bugs like the old one. You should be burying Gazebo in bugs. Your bugs are very important to us and will help us make the Enhancements better! A few additional notes on bugs:

All Racial Core Enhancements SHOULD NOT require any points spent in the tree to obtain them (ie: at level 20 you should be able to spend points on all Racial Core Enhancements). If your Racial Tree Core Enhancements do require points spent in the tree, please bug it!
If a particular Enhancement is giving you a much larger bonus on live please bug it!
If a particular Enhancement seems too expensive, please bug it!
Essentially, If you think it could possibly be a bug PLEASE BUG IT! Sure, some things may be working as intended, but it is far better for us to look into a bug and make that decision than for us to never hear about the bug that is really a bug.


Smiles,
Squeak

So lets just point whatever we think isnt right. actually wait for a new build before jumping the gun.

You *do* realize this is my feedback on what I know is only the alpha right? I would *love* to give feedback on the more thought out, less restrictive, multiclass friendly polished builds, but guess what it's not available...

I can only speak on what I can see, and what I can see kills my builds. I want the devs and player to know this so they can react *NOW* as to fix this in the future versions of the enhancement pass.


P.S. On what is quoted above, Varg speaks of the racial core not requiring AP spent and not racial class, meaning the 17 to unlock it may be WAI.

[smatt]

Calling a character dead after only about 45% of the enhancement change incorporated would be the equivalent to Chicken Little screaming the sky is falling because of rain. Considering that only racial and a few classes have been released, let's keep it in touch with some semblance of some kind of organized insanity.

Here.... I'll put it terms a Texan will understand.... When I see a steers tail go up, and the stuff startin' to flow... I know before it hits the ground what it is... Let alone having to actually step in it

Sorry, I understand it's VERY early.... But even at this juncture, it appears a bunch of Devs seem to think a major overhaul of ALL builds within DDO is the way to go.... I highly doubt a single build or build theory will hold true. It will chase more players away than it will attract, plain and simple... But hey, I could be wrong... They could actually go back to the drawing board...

[Lerincho]

Here.... I'll put it terms a Texan will understand.... When I see a steers tail go up, and the stuff startin' to flow... I know before it hits the ground what it is... Let alone having to actually step in it

Sorry, I understand it's VERY early.... But even at this juncture, it appears a bunch of Devs seem to think a major overhaul of ALL builds within DDO is the way to go.... I highly doubt a single build or build theory will hold true. It will chase more players away than it will attract, plain and simple... But hey, I could be wrong... They could actually go back to the drawing board...

And this is different than the first enhancement overhaul how? This is different than the introduction of prestige classes how? If you know how to play the game well, you will adapt. If you are a flavor of the month type then it is past time for you to find another game. D&D has always been founded on a simple principle, there are consequences to every choice; whether good or bad there is always a direct cause and effect. If would be a very poor enhancement overhaul if not every build was effected, period.

You can talk down to someone else, but unless you are going to come with some actual facts, we will not be playing your game.

[Sonos]

i love how everyone is whining when it was an alpha model that literally just came out. the ap costs were not set in stone. does anyone besides me actually read the dev tracker? did anyone forget they say do lots of bug reports. meaning if it doesnt seem right say something.
/snipped

Dearest white knight. What is being voiced is a reaction to this "alpha" model. One can choose to ignore it or take heed.

While certainly there will be changes, don't be fooled by "alpha", if it is on Lammania it is near close to what it will be, again with SOME tweaks notwithstanding. This IS the time to complain and voice dissent. Doing it later is usually too late; if it is not already for some things.

PS it's not all doom. There are some very exciting things in there to be certain.

[Kakashi67]

Nope.

Then again, for my play style, they could remove enhancements completely and I'd still be able to play.

But I do so enjoy forum drama.

[smatt]

And this is different than the first enhancement overhaul how? This is different than the introduction of prestige classes how? If you know how to play the game well, you will adapt. If you are a flavor of the month type then it is past time for you to find another game. D&D has always been founded on a simple principle, there are consequences to every choice; whether good or bad there is always a direct cause and effect. If would be a very poor enhancement overhaul if not every build was effected, period.

You can talk down to someone else, but unless you are going to come with some actual facts, we will not be playing your game.

I didn't alk down to you, it was a joke....

I've played through every single change in this game with little complaint over the last 6+ years, and I've NEVER been a flavor of the month moron. My complaints ahve typically been around the general over all playability of the game. IE: Lag, broken UI, broken chat as we have now. And of course every build will be affected.. But do most have to feel a negative impact? Does the cleric clas have to be pigeon hoeld into heal/buff bot, with the removal of most/all offensive casting enhancement lines? Look at what they did to stalwart.... Or do you understand the impacts of such changes?

You can kiss up all you want.... I saw this a long time ago and expressed concerns back then about what they were going to do with this "enhancement pass"...... Yes, I knwo who's input has gone into the early parts of this, I'm not impressed. In a roundabout way, it will be more of "Use the store to get what you want" The pigeon holing of more classes into very specific roles, with less build choices.

In edit: It's funny how you take a joke made by me... And try to turn it into an insult..... And then you TRY to insult me by insinuating that I'm a flavor of the month build player.

Here's the main point... Yes there's no question that there will be SOME rebalancing with such a sweepign overhaul of the enhancement system. BUT... How neccesary is it too completely wipe out so many builds at thsi juncture in the game? I know the forever dreamers try and do everything they can to keep the "DDO will suddenly become a super popular game, if only we made X change"... Pipe dream to say the least....

[Ryiah]

If you know how to play the game well, you will adapt.

Exactly. None of my characters will become useless from the enhancement pass because they never really had builds set in stone. I always made modifications to their feats, enhancements, etc as new changes were released. If anything these changes will likely result in improvements for my characters.