Is history set to repeat?

[Postumus]

i'm always loud and i'm rarely right.

ftfy.

[Ape_Man]

ftfy.

Please, if I were wrong on everything I'd be you.

[Jaid314]

This is Alpha. It is going to change between now and live so planning builds now is a big waste of time. As is complaining about changes rather than providing constructive feedback. "This is terrrrrible!!!" is a pointless complaint that will just get ignored. "The enhancements in the protector tree could use more work such as adding something that increases DCs" is constructive feedback that might actually get some attention.

You would think people would have figured this out by now.

if turbine had a better track record of listening to fan feedback, i'd feel a lot more reassured about this being only alpha and subject to change.

now, they've done well... on occasion. but if i'm going to feel reassured, i need *consistency* in knowing i'm not about to get screwed over.

for example, it is a bit... disconcerting that the devs did not notice that rangers are now healing for dramatically less. one would think that if they played a ranger, this would be immediately noticeable, as the difference is something like 50 points per heal on a relatively small value (i think that ~50 point difference was on someone using maximize, and getting ~250ish on live... so a 20% decrease, which like i said, should be fairly noticeable)

or that they haven't noticed that +1 to hit is not worth +2 AP.

or that they seem to think that every tank uses a sword and shield 100% of the time, instead of switching between THF and S&B as the situation calls for it.

or that they still think +8 to strength when you're on your deathbed only is actually worth anything at all.

and so on.

[Elaril]

Yes I have learned that the people who whine the loudest and most frequently are most often the ones who end up being wrong in the end. The folks who do not speak in terms of generalities and hyperbole and who actually take time to process new information are the ones who tend to be correct. Every... single... update.

So far it has been more of the former than the latter.

This post is staggeringly ironic.

[Kilbar]

No, I'm counting popularity. As in "public awareness". Timelines are fine and all, but they fail as far as people's memories are concerned. Thus Star Wars has far more "street cred" than Chainmail can ever hope to have, because as important as it may be to the development of a genre, it falls far short o popular awareness, the Duke's wargames not withstanding. We all know about "wargames". The concept is far older than the Duke's rendition. But far less people care. Whereas, something that is a tangible concept that the "common man" can see and feel, Star Wars far outdates "Role Playing Games", even if they come from an "older concept'. Because how many people, even in the 70s were messing around with minitures and fake terrain when compared to the people who bought Star Wars figurines?

Who played with fake terrain and figurines... Hrm... I'm going to go with Who Is Every Child With An Imagination On The Planet? for a thousand, Alex.

[Postumus]

Who played with fake terrain and figurines... Hrm... I'm going to go with Who Is Every Child With An Imagination On The Planet? for a thousand, Alex.

"Bucket O' Plastic Army Men" for the win?

(I also had those crappy cowboy and Indian plastics. Always had the Indian braves with bow legs spread akimbo for a horse, which I never had, so they invariably had to be propped against something to stay upright.)

[Kilbar]

"Bucket O' Plastic Army Men" for the win?

(I also had those crappy cowboy and Indian plastics. Always had the Indian braves with bow legs spread akimbo for a horse, which I never had, so they invariably had to be propped against something to stay upright.)

And if it wasn't that it was carved wooden figurines or straw dolls or hell, just distinct rocks. For adults it's called Improv Theatre, and it goes back to cavemen telling interactive stories by starlight. Star. Wars. Loses.

[eonfreon]

Who played with fake terrain and figurines... Hrm... I'm going to go with Who Is Every Child With An Imagination On The Planet? for a thousand, Alex.

Exactly. Which had absolutely nothing to do with Chainmail or any Wargames. Yes, every kid played with toys, that's pretty much what kids do. Now, during the 70s, how many kids were playing by any type of "war game" rules? I mean printed and established rules, because lining up your cowboys and indians or army soldiers and "making them fight" is not following any rules other than that of imagination.

Those are just things we learned watching "cowboy and indian" and "Soldier Men at war" tv shows. And then when Star Wars hit the scene we changed over to "Space Opera" type characters and games.

While traditional Wargames and such were confined to "hobbyists", Star Wars was sold to "every boy out there". Heck, they sold the promise of the toys before they even made them, you bought the box and sent in the proof of purchase to get the toys when they first came out.

Trying to equate kids using their imagination as having anything to do with Chainmail, a product that was hardly known in it's day, is quite a stretch. And are you now trying to equate any type of "play" and improv to some sort of "popular culture" to prove your point about Chainmail? It's hilarious that you'd go that far on a tangent to "prove me wrong". Yes, Chainmail came before Star Wars. I'm still going with the fact that it didn't matter when it came out, because hardly anybody knew about it, it only caught on when it became DnD. And DnD didn't start having "lore" until it was popular enough to be played by a decent amount of kids, much, much later then all the kids who owned many Star Wars toys. And the majority of DnD "lore" came from outright "lifting" it from Tolkien's work.

Is Chainmail relevent? Sure, to us who play DDO and actually played DnD back in the late 70s early 80s, we know about it. How many actually had it in their possession, at any point in time? How many know about the "Fighting Man"?

Far, far, far less than those who know Obi Wan or Chewbacca.

So playing with toys, cowboys and indians or army men or dinosaurs, has absolutely nothing to do with Chainmail, or people's awareness of it. Chainmail is only known about nowadays because of it's relation to DnD. Playing with toys since the "Caveman days" does not make Chainmail part of popular culture. When it was out it was barely even known about by the hobbyists, let alone the regular kids. Compared to the effect that Star Wars had, Chainmail was barely on the radar. DnD grew slowly, but it didn't have anywhere near the impact that Star Wars did. Heck, it only really reached "public awareness" status when some religious groups went on a campaign against it. Then there was a movie that portrayed it completely wrong; "Mazes and Monsters".

Every person is different and people are inspired by different things, so yes, DnD and such could have a very profound effect on an individual. But on a far smaller scale, in relation.

DnD was far more "important" in my life then Star Wars ever could be. Even so I can see the fundamental difference. Certain people know what I mean by "Fighting Man", but very, very few compared to how many know "Chewbacca".

[eonfreon]

And if it wasn't that it was carved wooden figurines or straw dolls or hell, just distinct rocks. For adults it's called Improv Theatre, and it goes back to cavemen telling interactive stories by starlight. Star. Wars. Loses.

And by going on this tangent: Chainmail. Really. Loses. Badly.

[Kilbar]

Exactly. Which had absolutely nothing to do with Chainmail or any Wargames. Yes, every kid played with toys, that's pretty much what kids do. Now, during the 70s, how many kids were playing by any type of "war game" rules? I mean printed and established rules, because lining up your cowboys and indians or army soldiers and "making them fight" is not following any rules other than that of imagination.

Those are just things we learned watching "cowboy and indian" and "Soldier Men at war" tv shows. And then when Star Wars hit the scene we changed over to "Space Opera" type characters and games.

While traditional Wargames and such were confined to "hobbyists", Star Wars was sold to "every boy out there". Heck, they sold the promise of the toys before they even made them, you bought the box and sent in the proof of purchase to get the toys when they first came out.

Trying to equate kids using their imagination as having anything to do with Chainmail, a product that was hardly known in it's day, is quite a stretch. And are you now trying to equate any type of "play" and improv to some sort of "popular culture" to prove your point about Chainmail? It's hilarious that you'd go that far on a tangent to "prove me wrong". Yes, Chainmail came before Star Wars. I'm still going with the fact that it didn't matter when it came out, because hardly anybody knew about it, it only caught on when it became DnD. And DnD didn't start having "lore" until it was popular enough to be played by a decent amount of kids, much, much later then all the kids who owned many Star Wars toys. And the majority of DnD "lore" came from outright "lifting" it from Tolkien's work.

Is Chainmail relevent? Sure, to us who play DDO and actually played DnD back in the late 70s early 80s, we know about it. How many actually had it in their possession, at any point in time? How many know about the "Fighting Man"?

Far, far, far less than those who know Obi Wan or Chewbacca.

So playing with toys, cowboys and indians or army men or dinosaurs, has absolutely nothing to do with Chainmail, or people's awareness of it. Chainmail is only known about nowadays because of it's relation to DnD. Playing with toys since the "Caveman days" does not make Chainmail part of popular culture. When it was out it was barely even known about by the hobbyists, let alone the regular kids. Compared to the effect that Star Wars had, Chainmail was barely on the radar. DnD grew slowly, but it didn't have anywhere near the impact that Star Wars did. Heck, it only really reached "public awareness" status when some religious groups went on a campaign against it. Then there was a movie that portrayed it completely wrong; "Mazes and Monsters".

Every person is different and people are inspired by different things, so yes, DnD and such could have a very profound effect on an individual. But on a far smaller scale, in relation.

DnD was far more "important" in my life then Star Wars ever could be. Even so I can see the fundamental difference. Certain people know what I mean by "Fighting Man", but very, very few compared to how many know "Chewbacca".

You have a differing opinion and I respect that. I don't care to argue this further.

[Scraap]

And if it wasn't that it was carved wooden figurines or straw dolls or hell, just distinct rocks. For adults it's called Improv Theatre, and it goes back to cavemen telling interactive stories by starlight. Star. Wars. Loses.

Guy with a shiny sword and magical powers rescues a princess from an evil lord.

Which one am I talking about?


As to them setting themselves up to repeat the same mistakes others have made? Hoping not. Them kicking this stuff into the light of day early does mitigate the concerns a bit, depending on how many passes per class-batch we'll end up seeing (A this rate, I'm not really thinking 2 or even 4 will end up being enough, but we'll see.)

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Nice attempt to recover but you were wrong, just admit it graciuosly. Regardless of popular culture, I think a large number of the over thirty-five crowd of DDO players know about Chainmail and that DnD was on the scene slightly before Star Wars.

He should have just said he meant: A long time ago in a galaxy far far away.

[eonfreon]

He should have just said he meant: A long time ago in a galaxy far far away.

The fact that you use that movie quote kind of proves my point. You've probably seen the movies, right?

Now, have you ever actually even held the Chainmail rulebook in your hands?

If you did, then you're one of the very, very few who has.

[Charononus]

The fact that you use that movie quote kind of proves my point. You've probably seen the movies, right?

Now, have you ever actually even held the Chainmail rulebook in your hands?

If you did, then you're one of the very, very few who has.

Go ask 100 people on the street what chainmail is and they will respond with

or


Ask who Darth Vader is and you'll get:

[Wwalmart]

Barbarian! and call it a day........