Is history set to repeat?

[eonfreon]

You should not be able to get the best parts of a build without getting through the trees... why because it would be downright op and a balance issue. Every tree game does this...why should ddo be any different. The tree system is a step in the right direction to improving balance issues.

Well, they could get rid of the stupid "tree game", but they won't of course. They've already done the artwork designs and started coding. The best we can hope for is getting them to balance the costs to something sane.

Really before they got to this stage they should have started an "alpha". Explaining what they were thinking changing things completely around, before they actually got started, because all the lip service aside about our "feedback", they aren't going to make many real changes to the system, if at all. If they did it would require more work, which costs more money, and it would throw away work already developed, which would be wasting money. And as a subsidiary of Warner Brothers, that's not something Turbine can afford to do.

So looks like we're stuck with it no matter what.

[Ape_Man]

We already have to do this for most prestiges, the choices just arent arranged visually in a tree. Nearly every prestige has enhancement and feat requirements players would rather not have to spend APs and feats on in order to qualify for the prestige.

Do you even play this game?

[Ape_Man]

People have been whining about how long it has taken for the enhancement pass to arrive, and after their first whiff they are already mumbling last rites. Gotta love the forums.

And they know the game better than most, many players could learn something from listening to them.

[Dilbon]

It's baffling that they want to create a new game at this late point in the game's life.

I like it. It's something fresh and interesting. I don't care how this change affects my current characters, I just want new toys to play with.

Don't get stuck in the past, embrace the new.

[gphysalis]

That's Sig worthy. Any objections?

no objections at all

[Davelfus]

I like it. It's something fresh and interesting. I don't care how this change affects my current characters, I just want new toys to play with.

Don't get stuck in the past, embrace the new.

If such toys lead to less build diversity, then i say we burn them with fire, and some acid clouds
just to be sure

with the current ap cost and prereqs, it is pretty hard to move to a second or even third tree to get more nice stuff
also the several mia enhancements worries me a lot... there is a reason ppl are missing them... they are used a lot on live...

[eonfreon]

Probably not. Forumisers like to doomcry about how every change will FINALLY kill DDO, then someone creative thinks outside the box and a new build is born and copied and copied and copied until every build that does not copy it is labeled 'not viable' or gimp.

People have been whining about how long it has taken for the enhancement pass to arrive, and after their first whiff they are already mumbling last rites. Gotta love the forums.

No, people have been "whining" on the forums because we knew the Devs wanted to change the enhancements around and we wanted to see what they were going to do and when so that we could prepare our builds, instead of building blindly. Like we had to do before the Devs released PrEs, with the level requirements that we weren't told about. So if your build couldn't fit into 6/12/18, tough luck no PrE tier x for you. So knowing the tradition of Turbine to ignore just about all input and common sense, we wanted to know as soon as possible what they were doing.

And now we finally see what they are planning. And they're getting exactly the feedback they deserve.

This is just more ammo for my theory that EDs were the first step in the morph from DDO to DDO2. Or to keep it in DnD terms, from 1st edition DDO to 2nd edition.

That's just stupid. DDO2 should be a DDO2, not DDO1+. The game's code is too old to transition from one type of game into another. Especially when other games have similar concepts and are built from the ground up to fulfill that vision. This just makes the game look like an inferior copy of those games. A "johnny-come-lately" even though they predate most of those games.

But, considering how cheap Turbine has been of late, you're probably right. Instead of creating a game from the ground up, they'll just try to re-arrange an old game and announce it as "new".

[eonfreon]

I like it. It's something fresh and interesting. I don't care how this change affects my current characters, I just want new toys to play with.

Don't get stuck in the past, embrace the new.

Actually, mister platitudes, now is not the time to "embrace the new". Now is the time to make objections known. The time to "embrace the new" is when Turbine finally puts it Live, when I have no choice left other than not to play the game much, if at all.

So thanks for your advice and all, but I'm gonna put it into the category it deserves.

[Zorth]

Interesting.

no comment at the moment.

All I can say for ddo is our lore goes back 50 years. Chainmail!

We will not let this happen.

[eonfreon]

Interesting.

no comment at the moment.

All I can say for ddo is our lore goes back 50 years. Chainmail!

We will not let this happen.

You do realize that's still less than Star Wars, right? Please have a point better than that, because it falls flat otherwise. We're trying our best "not to let this happen" because it would suck for us all that the "game", the "system", what have you, screwed it up and sent us off to the next game, thus losing all our "progress" here. When it comes down to it, I'd rather have this system work, rather than tell me it's given up and become another system entirely.

If they're going to go down such a bold road, then they have to have the infastructure to match. It's fine to restructure the game and bring it into a better balance, as long you can actually do so. Now that you require "heal" as a skill for instance, are you going to give the skill points to match? Or do I just take away from what I've built from the game that was to compensate for the game that is. I know it's tough for most people to understand, but I don't want to "rob peter to pay paul". That's just stupid to expect such. So I would have to expect to have lesser overall abilities than I have now, so that Turbine can balance it's game? What, again? How many times do they expect that to be the norm.

I'm getting tired of robbing Peter to pay Paul. Turbine better have a heck of an Endgame to make me do that.

[Kilbar]

You do realize that's still less than Star Wars, right? Please have a point better than that, because it falls flat otherwise. We're trying our best "not to let this happen" because it would suck for us all that the "game", the "system", what have you, screwed it up and sent us off to the next game, thus losing all our "progress" here. When it comes down to it, I'd rather have this system work, rather than tell me it's given up and become another system entirely.

No, no it really isn't. Star Wars came out in '77. Chainmail came out in '71. Not the fifty years that was quoted, but still longer than you apparently thought. Unless, of course, you're counting Star Wars' spiritual antecedents in the Republic Serials of the 1930s in which case DnD gets to count wargames as far back as the Duke of Brunswick's first wargame in 1780.

[eonfreon]

No, no it really isn't. Star Wars came out in '77. Chainmail came out in '71. Not the fifty years that was quoted, but still longer than you apparently thought. Unless, of course, you're counting Star Wars' spiritual antecedents in the Republic Serials of the 1930s in which case DnD gets to count wargames as far back as the Duke of Brunswick's first wargame in 1780.

No, I'm counting popularity. As in "public awareness". Timelines are fine and all, but they fail as far as people's memories are concerned. Thus Star Wars has far more "street cred" than Chainmail can ever hope to have, because as important as it may be to the development of a genre, it falls far short o popular awareness, the Duke's wargames not withstanding. We all know about "wargames". The concept is far older than the Duke's rendition. But far less people care. Whereas, something that is a tangible concept that the "common man" can see and feel, Star Wars far outdates "Role Playing Games", even if they come from an "older concept'. Because how many people, even in the 70s were messing around with minitures and fake terrain when compared to the people who bought Star Wars figurines?

[Postumus]

No, people have been "whining" on the forums because we knew the Devs wanted to change the enhancements around and we wanted to see what they were going to do and when so that we could prepare our builds, instead of building blindly. Like we had to do before the Devs released PrEs, with the level requirements that we weren't told about. So if your build couldn't fit into 6/12/18, tough luck no PrE tier x for you. So knowing the tradition of Turbine to ignore just about all input and common sense, we wanted to know as soon as possible what they were doing.

And now we finally see what they are planning. And they're getting exactly the feedback they deserve.

This is Alpha. It is going to change between now and live so planning builds now is a big waste of time. As is complaining about changes rather than providing constructive feedback. "This is terrrrrible!!!" is a pointless complaint that will just get ignored. "The enhancements in the protector tree could use more work such as adding something that increases DCs" is constructive feedback that might actually get some attention.

You would think people would have figured this out by now.

That's just stupid. DDO2 should be a DDO2, not DDO1+. w".

Relax chum. I was only half serious.

[Postumus]

No, I'm counting popularity. As in "public awareness". Timelines are fine and all, but they fail as far as people's memories are concerned. Thus Star Wars has far more "street cred" than Chainmail can ever hope to have, because as important as it may be to the development of a genre, it falls far short o popular awarenesses?

Nice attempt to recover but you were wrong, just admit it graciuosly. Regardless of popular culture, I think a large number of the over thirty-five crowd of DDO players know about Chainmail and that DnD was on the scene slightly before Star Wars.

[eonfreon]

This is Alpha. It is going to change between now and live so planning builds now is a big waste of time. As is complaining about changes rather than providing constructive feedback. "This is terrrrrible!!!" is a pointless complaint that will just get ignored. "The enhancements in the protector tree could use more work such as adding something that increases DCs" is constructive feedback that might actually get some attention.

You would think people would have figured this out by now.




Relax chum. I was only half serious.

Thank you Capt Obvious. I was hoping you were only half serious. Any more than that....

You see the difference is I actually do look at the enhancements and give feedback based on that, whereas, it seems you give feedback based on other people's feedback. I'm sure that's worth something though. At least you're pointing out when someone has good feedback and when they don't. That's certain to be of help in the long run for sure.

Thank you, I guess?

[Charononus]

This is Alpha. It is going to change between now and live so planning builds now is a big waste of time. As is complaining about changes rather than providing constructive feedback. "This is terrrrrible!!!" is a pointless complaint that will just get ignored. "The enhancements in the protector tree could use more work such as adding something that increases DCs" is constructive feedback that might actually get some attention.

You would think people would have figured this out by now.




Relax chum. I was only half serious.

Actually there is no way for you to know what kind of feedback someone has given, you can't see the bug reports, survey's, ext that have been submitted. Personally I spent 2 hours just filling out reports and surveys. The forums have never seemed to be the dev's primary source for feedback but are more of a discussion with players. Also if someone looks at the ep and starts screaming omg what have you done, that is still feedback.

[Bacab]

It's baffling that they want to create a new game at this late point in the game's life.

I feel this way too.

[Postumus]

And they know the game better than most, many players could learn something from listening to them

Yes I have learned that the people who whine the loudest and most frequently are most often the ones who end up being wrong in the end. The folks who do not speak in terms of generalities and hyperbole and who actually take time to process new information are the ones who tend to be correct. Every... single... update.

So far it has been more of the former than the latter.

[eonfreon]

Nice attempt to recover but you were wrong, just admit it graciuosly. Regardless of popular culture, I think a large number of the over thirty-five crowd of DDO players know about Chainmail and that DnD was on the scene slightly before Star Wars.

Sure, "chum". Chainmail was On the scene before Star Wars. But I'll stand by the fact that "no one cared" at that time. Chainmail wasn't relevant until DnD was relevant.

But fine, I was "wrong". About what, I'm not sure, but there's no way you can tell me that DnD culture "predates" Star Wars. Because Chainmail was a very small segment. The fact it came first has little impact on the effect it had on popular culture, or "lore" as it was presented. I remember watching Star Wars in the theatre back in 77. Didn't hear of DnD or "Chainmail" until years later. I had a bunch of Star Wars action figures long before I cracked open the "Basic Set" and then found out about Ad&D. You gonna tell me I was different from every kid on the block, chum?

And when looked at the quote I responded to, it really looks silly. The "DnD" lore? Shoot, at that point just point to the kids who read Tolkien and claim that inspiration.

[Ape_Man]

Yes I have learned that the people who whine the loudest and most frequently are most often the ones who end up being wrong in the end. The folks who do not speak in terms of generalities and hyperbole and who actually take time to process new information are the ones who tend to be correct. Every... single... update.

So far it has been more of the former than the latter.

I'm loud and I'm always right. Try again.