A quick update on the Enhancements

[IronClan]

It's true the second you create a ranger. That's like saying we don't have the option on live now because the player chose to spend all his points on other things. The fact is all rangers have the option to spend their points on these enhancements until they make a choice to spend elsewhere.

Let me try:
The old system restricted choices via a couple prerequisites for PrE's and a maximum AP possible to spend. And gated this with minimum class levels. All enhancements that were available to a race/class combo where purchasable until you ran out of points. Total AP spent was simply a way to keep you from getting higher tier abilities too soon, but did not restrict your choices in a meaningful way.

The new system adds AP spent in tree as a new constriction and arbitrary means of eliminating possible choices in other trees.
The new system adds lots of "prerequisites" in AP spent and "branches" (arrows) paths you have to follow to get things that used to not have that. Even to get normal non PrE abilities. Forcing you to take things you wouldn't have in the old system.
It relaxes the class level gating which is good but only for the moment as I expect we're not getting Kensai III Critical Threat increase with just 5 levels of fighter. in fact I'd be shocked if it's lower than 16.
It locks out mundane enhancement choices by putting them in PrE trees that they don't really belong in (such as FE and many others) as pure filler.
It compartmentalizes all enhancements into pretty but arbitrary "trees" which restrict what you can choose by the fact that you can only choose from X number of trees (X being the number they finally decide on, probably 3 or 4).
And finally it has the same maximum AP spending restriction. And also has prerequisite AP costs for PrE's (which actually appear to be elevated significantly)

So in summery the new system has 4 new constrictions of choice in addition to the 2 old constrictions, and for the moment, has less restrictive class level requirements.

So just purely objectively comparing the two we have:

Old:
2 choice constrictions and seemingly higher level requirements.

New
6 choice constrictions and lower level requirements until they raise them significantly which they are sure to do*

* once they lower some of the AP costs; Which will be billed as the give and take necessary to lower the AP costs that are artificially high (obviously the class level requirements being artificially low right now as well there's no way they leave them where they are).

[redoubt]

If he was human your boosts and skill bonuses would all be in that tree and you would have healing amp to go with your build, as well has the human weapon training bonuses instead of the drow bonuses. That means you no longer need AA tree or some of the stuff in the other trees. The best thing for the build is to invest in tempest and deepwood, and the race tree..

The character is drow. I don't think we should have to change races for an enhancement pass to be valid.

Then you are hosed on AP left for any other trees anyway, but might be able to make use of the mechanic tree for the bonuses there on the first tier, which likely will be the source of your skill bonuses since you are on a drow. Search and spot are already in the drow tree and all you are looking for in mechanic is the trap abilities bonuses..

So you agree that I cannot get as many enhancements in the alpha version as I can in live.

You don't need 1 tier of tortoise but that's supposed to cost 2 monk levels anyway, of which what you listed only has 1 monk level..

You might be right. Did a monk past life recently... might be blending build on that one. Though before EDs the 5hp was worth the 1ap.

With the ability bonuses on the first tiers you actually get a higher bonus than your current build (+3 instead of +1), and drow get easy access to nothing is hidden for free checks on traps and secret doors..

Actually, my character gets 5 points of dex from enhancements in the current system. How do I replicate in the new one?

Your build looks completely similar, tbh, and in some ways better. No need for 6 trees at all if the same bonuses are there in trees you do have, and no AP to spend in them anyway unless you think you would rather give up the best bonuses in DW and tempest for 1st tier enhancements.

What does "completely similar" mean? Is that sorta like "kinda pregnant?"

The point that you keep avoiding is that when convert from the live system to the new system you lose enhancements. You have even admitted that in this post, but you seem to feel that adding back in a bit of flexibility is bad... why?

[redoubt]

You can only have three class pres on live. And can only have three classes. It is a balance restriction. Allowing someone to take items from kensai, stalwart defender, shintao, tempest, and dwarven would be a bit overkill, new or old system. It would create less diversity because people would take very specific abilities to make their build beyond overpowered. Why invest into higher level spells if your dcs and spell pen is high enough to have the cheap ones work on EE?

You still have to have levels in the class. Core enhancements still require points spent in the appropriate tree. The AP limit will keep you from having all the "best stuff" from 6 trees. But you could have lots of little enhancements from each of those trees.

[Aashrym]

The character is drow. I don't think we should have to change races for an enhancement pass to be valid.

What I'm saying is multiclassing is still completely viable and it actually looks like a good option in many cases, such as yours. I have no doubt there are builds that will not be as effective and new builds that will appear.

So you agree that I cannot get as many enhancements in the alpha version as I can in live.

No, I don't agree on that at all. You still get to spend all 80 of your AP and many enhancements are cheaper so you pick up a few more of them. There is an extra step in the planning but that's all it is, additional planning.

You might be right. Did a monk past life recently... might be blending build on that one. Though before EDs the 5hp was worth the 1ap.

I used to grab it on monk splashes too for a quick 5 hp. I would take it if I could but if it's not I wouldn't worry about 5 hp in the end. It does take monk 2 tho, so doesn't fit regardless on exploiter builds under monk.

Actually, my character gets 5 points of dex from enhancements in the current system. How do I replicate in the new one?

2 in deepwood, 2 in tempest, 2 in drow. They all stack.

What does "completely similar" mean? Is that sorta like "kinda pregnant?"

What I mean is everything you listed is for needing 6 trees is available in the trees you have on the new system, and with more enhancements and higher skill bonuses than live offers.

The point that you keep avoiding is that when convert from the live system to the new system you lose enhancements. You have even admitted that in this post, but you seem to feel that adding back in a bit of flexibility is bad... why?

Bad no, potential issues yes, pointless yes. Pointless because what is available will work and it makes more sense to spend AP on higher tier abilities over lower tier abilities. I just disagree that the new system is screwing over multiclassing. There are restrictions, I agree.

The bottom line is that once you spend at least 17 AP in drow for the abilities listed with full weapon enhancements (probably more for the poison but it's bugged right now), 32 minimum for any single tier 5 enhancement and you only have 31 AP left anyway. One your exploiter I would find it most likely you'll pick either tempest or DW tier 5 enhancements and then fill out the other tree up to tier 4 with at least another 22 AP.

Those 9 you have left for 1 tree or for better enhancements in the 3 trees you already have are not going to go far enough to do anything no matter how more many trees we might have, which is what makes having even more tree available to have virtually no points to spend makes that argument pointless.

The alternative is to not spend the AP on better enhancements. I mean, hey, why spend 6 AP on a thousand cuts when we should be able to add another tree so we can spend AP on skill bonuses and item defense?

There are some decent low level enhancements on live but the real benefit of adding many of them is the fact high level enhancements cost more AP to fill out. No one would take skill bonuses on live over heavy draw if they have 2 AP to spend and both are available.

Your build will be looking at 42 AP in tempest (this is for filling multiple tier 5 DPS enhancements), 26 AP in deepwood (this is for filling FE damage), 20 in drow (this is for full drow weapon and poison) and at 88 AP you are already giving things up. That issue exists regardless of number of classes, muli or pure. Either way you have no issue fitting in FE enhancements unless you decide not to take them. More trees does you 0 good unless you are throwing away your high tier DPS enhancements for low tier small bonuses. That makes no sense from a building perspective in the new system.

[Aashrym]

It relaxes the class level gating which is good but only for the moment as I expect we're not getting Kensai III Critical Threat increase with just 5 levels of fighter. in fact I'd be shocked if it's lower than 16.

You might want to go to Lamma and look, rather than guess.

All of the trees work the same. Level gating is 1 thru 5 per tier of tree, PrE innates at the bottom is 1/3/6/12/18/20. Keen Edge is in the 5th tier of the Kensei tree and provides a +1 competence bonus to critical.

Power surge is on the innate row and requires level 12, once cut is the level 18 ability and gives your weapon vorpal for 60 seconds, and alacrity is the kensei capstone for level 20. The level 6 innate is strike with no thought and provides a double strike bonus of 1% per each additional innate acquired.

Anything else the tree requires 5 fighter levels for gating and the level 6 isn't worth much without going higher.

The old system had the high level gating and global AP spend and multiple tiers required at various levels and more prereq enhancements and more feat requirements and more stat requirements. All race class combos were not available until you ran out of points because all PrE's were exclusive by class, higher tiers of each enhancement had stacking costs that made capping several prohibitive, and MAD disqualified us from feat prereq's and enhancement prereq's.

There are a lot of restrictions in the current system in a lot more ways. High levels of class gating being a huge one that was altered significantly to open up high tier enhancements that would not be available under the current system. That's not all by a long shot.

[emptysands]

You might want to go to Lamma and look, rather than guess.

All of the trees work the same. Level gating is 1 thru 5 per tier of tree, PrE innates at the bottom is 1/3/6/12/18/20. Keen Edge is in the 5th tier of the Kensei tree and provides a +1 competence bonus to critical.
...

Anything else the tree requires 5 fighter levels for gating and the level 6 isn't worth much without going higher.

You need Greater Weapon Focus Feat in order to get tier 4 Group Specialization, in order to get Keen Edge. So you'll want to be at least level 8 fighter.

[Aashrym]

You need Greater Weapon Focus Feat in order to get tier 4 Group Specialization, in order to get Keen Edge. So you'll want to be at least level 8 fighter.

Doh! I missed that req on the 4th tier. That'll teach me to level one up the old fashioned way. I'm bug reporting it, however, as inconsistent with the rest of the format. You still get rep for pointing it out, tho

[BinyaminTsadik]

The major change in the new system is a non-cumulative point system.

The old system had a single tree and was based off of class level and total points spent
The new system has multiple trees and is based off of points spent in a particular tree.

In order to make things easier for multiclassing

please have the race tree contribute points to all other trees, i suggest a 1:1 ratio but even a 2:1 ratio will seriously help us build what we could once build. Perhaps even tie this in to race type.

Example
Elves, Drow 1:1
Helves, Dwarves, Halflings 2:1
Humans, WF, Horcs 3:1

[emptysands]

Doh! I missed that req on the 4th tier. That'll teach me to level one up the old fashioned way. I'm bug reporting it, however, as inconsistent with the rest of the format. You still get rep for pointing it out, tho

I'm in two minds about it. Definitely needs to be clearer, so people dont misunderstand why they can not get the enhancements.

But getting +1 crit range for just being fighter 5, does seem a little unbalanced. In that case a centered eSOS or Sireth 7 Fighter/12 Monk/1 Druid in earth stance and +1 crit range would be quite nasty.

[kingfisher]

Your build will be looking at 42 AP in tempest (this is for filling multiple tier 5 DPS enhancements), 26 AP in deepwood (this is for filling FE damage), 20 in drow (this is for full drow weapon and poison) and at 88 AP you are already giving things up. That issue exists regardless of number of classes, muli or pure. Either way you have no issue fitting in FE enhancements unless you decide not to take them. More trees does you 0 good unless you are throwing away your high tier DPS enhancements for low tier small bonuses. That makes no sense from a building perspective in the new system.

your saying that the new system and its new restrictions dont matter because of the ap restriction itself, this is a copout, the high ap costs are just as much a problem as the idiotic 3 tree limit. you can say that one of the problems is ok because the other problem makes it irrelevant. the whole system sucks donkey balls. its way worse than live, its less intuitive more complicated less powerful less fun less of everything but definitely new, so that makes it better right?

this has been your whole problem the entire time this conversation has been going on, instead of looking at the old system vs the new system you judge the new system vs itself ignoring the fact that what WE HAVE NOW is clearl better than this new WOW clone garbage they are shoving down our throats.

[IronClan]

You might want to go to Lamma and look, rather than guess.

Um, I'm not guessing about anything, you understand what "speculation" means?

You clearly didn't read or understand my point there, I was saying that Turbine will probably change that and they are very unlikely to keep it at 5 levels of fighter for abilities that currently take 18. So it will PROBABLY become a restriction again. Instead of what appears to be now: a false relaxation of a former restriction.

Nice how you completely ignored the objective breakdown of constrictions in the old system versus the new system. It seems like you're choosing to ignore or intentionally misinterpret anything that doesn't fit your argument.

So let me put it out there again for you, maybe this time you wont choose to ignore it: the old system has 3 constrictions, and the new system has 6, this will turn into 7 when they likely make the level minimums much higher than they currently are.

3 versus 6... probably 7

The new system is at least twice as restrictive as the old system.

[kublaikhanx]

Feels dumbed down
Overlyrestrictive
And will stilll have useless filler points (which I hate)
My Clonk and emerald-likebuilds are like *** do I do now!!!

[DeafeningWhisper]

Using your racial class tree, locks you out of one of your class tree already, there is no real need to have an AP cost on top of that. If making it free is too much maybe make it a lot cheaper, something like 4 APs.

I have a bardcher: elf, bard 16, ranger 2, rogue 2

In live I have access to bard, ranger, rogue and elf enhancements.

In Alpha I'll have (once we get bard trees) access to a lot less skills, 3 of the 4 trees I can get will be racial core with 15 points in it to unlock AA, 40 point in AA to unlock cap, and that leaves 35 for spellsinger.

The problem is the following "where did the devs put the core/general enhancements to bards?", if too many of the general bard abilities are in one tree (longer songs, more songs, extra to-hit and so on) I do not need I'll have to spread points in 2 bard trees.


What does it mean? I will go from having access to 3 classes enhancements I have lvls in to *1* and my racial core/class, that's it.


In order for the new system to be less detrimental to multiclasses I think all APs spent in trees of the same class should count to unlock the different tiers.

I'll likely be losing 2 classes worth of enhancements, I should be able to at least get a solid amount of specialization from it.

[~Dark_Sable]

Yeah, there are some wonky things going down. A lot of old builds won't be as viable any more, but a lot of new ones will. (I'm working on fleshing one DPS which is going to be quite potent, abusing various steamroller [when you get a kill, x happens] abilities.)

If the level restrictions stay the way they do, some very interesting builds are going to pop up. Most notably, I'm predicting that almost every melee is going to take three levels of druid for fatal harrier, considering that a number of them are taking seven levels of druid for it already.

That being said, I'm against restricting the level ranges further - or if it is done, to have it apply only to the top one or two tiers only; elsewise one completely neuters the point of multiclassing.

Those of us attached to certain builds (*won't lie; I'm one of them) will have to get over them... but y'all better do it quickly, because there are, I'm sure, going to be a lot of us working on how to make overpowered builds in the new system.

[Ironclans_evil_twin]

Yeah, there are some wonky things going down. A lot of old builds won't be as viable any more, but a lot of new ones will. (I'm working on fleshing one DPS which is going to be quite potent, abusing various steamroller [when you get a kill, x happens] abilities.)

If the level restrictions stay the way they do, some very interesting builds are going to pop up. Most notably, I'm predicting that almost every melee is going to take three levels of druid for fatal harrier, considering that a number of them are taking seven levels of druid for it already.

That being said, I'm against restricting the level ranges further - or if it is done, to have it apply only to the top one or two tiers only; elsewise one completely neuters the point of multiclassing.

Those of us attached to certain builds (*won't lie; I'm one of them) will have to get over them... but y'all better do it quickly, because there are, I'm sure, going to be a lot of us working on how to make overpowered builds in the new system.

This IMO is the intent they had when the put this alpha out with level 5 as the class level requirement for a tier 5 PrE.

They've got you focused on new possibilities that are almost entirely centered on previously impossible combinations. So you don't pay attention to all the previously possible combinations that have been neutered out.

Then right before it releases they will raise the class level requirements. and people who were focused on the new broken flavors of the month they were going to post in the class forums with spiffy new names like "the Gloriously Broken Bast@rd" and "the 5 4 3 2 1 build" as in:

I've got Tier 5 of X, tier 4 of Y, tier 3 of Z and 2 Healing amp from Human all in 1 build".

This whole thing smacks of the "spoonful of sugar makes the medicine go down".

Anyone notice the poll questions they are asking? Almost entirely centered on ease of use and simplicity.

[SisAmethyst]

...BUG the BUGS!...

Yeah, nice try ... did this in-game from Lama land, wrote a whole page with detail information ... got an issue with the reincarnation date ... tried correcting it, click finish and got 'Connection reset'. You know, we really try, but it's a pain in the a**

[Flavilandile]

Yeah, nice try ... did this in-game from Lama land, wrote a whole page with detail information ... got an issue with the reincarnation date ... tried correcting it, click finish and got 'Connection reset'. You know, we really try, but it's a pain in the a**

Yup, that's one of the thing that got fubared with the new website... the brand new shiny bug reporting tool is broken from Ingame if you spend too much time writing your bug.
It WILL LOG YOU OUT before you have time to write it.

Now I hope that the QA Kobolds will be able to explain to the Web pikers that they need to get their fingers out of their <someplace> and start working at implementing the keep me logged cookie that is needed for the Bug Report Tool to work.

Right now the only way to fill some decent bug report is to copy everything you need from the game in a text editor, type what you want to say in said text editor then copy all the things in the relevant boxes in a browser page pointing towards the bug report. While the new bug report page made things easy, the fact that it can't be always accessed from inside the game is a killer at making bug reports.

[~Requ1ro]

What we need is Lesser Reincarnation with abilit to chance VERY ONE CLASS LEVEL for each toon.

IF not, there will be a lot players that will be unhappy.
And unhappy customer is not paying customer.

[~Davellfus]

When will you guys do the second round of all classes so we can see how our feedback is being used?

don't tell me you think that this is ready for a beta :P (please don't...)

[Aashrym]

This IMO is the intent they had when the put this alpha out with level 5 as the class level requirement for a tier 5 PrE.

They've got you focused on new possibilities that are almost entirely centered on previously impossible combinations. So you don't pay attention to all the previously possible combinations that have been neutered out.

Then right before it releases they will raise the class level requirements. and people who were focused on the new broken flavors of the month they were going to post in the class forums with spiffy new names like "the Gloriously Broken Bast@rd" and "the 5 4 3 2 1 build" as in:

I've got Tier 5 of X, tier 4 of Y, tier 3 of Z and 2 Healing amp from Human all in 1 build".

This whole thing smacks of the "spoonful of sugar makes the medicine go down".

Anyone notice the poll questions they are asking? Almost entirely centered on ease of use and simplicity.

The low class level requirements were added to offset the loss of low level enhancements by adding access to higher tier enhancements. This was discussed in long before we actually saw anything in the trees and I still like having that access to higher tier enhancements.

The AP costs per tree is still a limiting factor and that should be enough.



The real issues would be:

1) how things stack within the trees and the solution should be easy by having the ability to either not stack or lock each other out

2) adding a tree currently has no opportunity cost with losing a tree because so many classes only have 2 trees and the solution would be to add more trees to create that opportunity cost

3) many of the higher core innate abilities are not very strong and not worth giving up the class benefits that come with multiclassing and the solution would be to buff some of them up a bit so the are a bit more appealing, particularly some capstones (some are worth it)


I wouldn't go near changing the class level requirements if it were me but I can agree that doesn't mean it won't happen either.