A quick update on the Enhancements

[IronClan]

I can understand most players being fearful of drastic change. And I mean core level changes. ED's are a drastic change. But they don't tinker with level 1.

However, I like many, if not all of the added abilities and features the new enhancements add. I think the cost to build needs to be tweaked: The same level and kinds of builds should be creatable with the new system.

The main reason for this major overhaul is the small amount of options in each class to do something; save casters. And the popularity of ED's with new features. So it is logical that people would like a more diverse set of options for every class, not just casters.

I still think they should add bullrush and overwhelm.

I don't have a problem with specific new enhancements (Melees have needed a charge or bullrush ability forever), or abilities added... I have a problem with mediocre old enhancements having a prerequisite of a bunch of mediocre new enhancements.

Basically they are eliminating many enhancements, while requiring us to take "filler" enhancements to get to the ones we use to get with no prerequisites.

PrE's used to have 4 or 6 AP's worth of "fluff" filler prereqs like "Improved Heal Skill II" for Radiant Servant. Now it has 20 or 30 AP's of filler prereqs... And if that's not bad enough, the mediocre enhancements like say Dwarven Axe Damage II (equivalent) now have as much prereqs as PrE's used to...

There really is no actual reason why they need to break builds, unless they are doing it on purpose.

I guarantee you that Squeek and Varg know that just eliminating the "points spent in tree" requirements and making all the old enhancements available in tweaked or rebalanced versions where needed would allow 100% of current builds to be replicated in the new system. If they have to throw out one ability or another due to balance issues so be it, but there's no intrinsic reason they NEED to break builds... the tree system can absorb the old enhancements and use "points spent overall" and then NO ONE gets a truly broken build.

[Aashrym]

It's not a good idea to call people nuts on the forums, but I do have to say that favored enemies is an iconic example of why people were so up in arms about the tree limits. If for some reason you lock out Deepwood Stalker, you've lost out on the ability to boost a significant core ability from your ranger.

Some people may say, "Hey, you're trying to get everything for free," but that's really not the case. Even if you had access to Deepwood with no tree limits, you still have to pay the prereq tax for the better, higher tier abilities.

And if someone wanted to make a character that trained a handful of tier1 enhancements from seven trees...why not? They won't be very powerful, they get to exercise creativity. Whom does that hurt? The UI designer who has to come up with a new tab system for the trees?

It really doesn't make much sense.

All rangers still have favored enemies because it is a core of the class. Deepwood just opens up some bonuses to it like war chanters have a bonus to inspire courage. All rangers can also add FE enhancements because spending AP in that tree doesn't prevent anyone from spending AP any other tree selected, and vice versa.

IMO, the ranger trees were some of the better trees we've seen so far, tbh.

Fish just likes to poke the bear a bit, I think.

[Stanley_Nicholas]

All rangers can also add FE enhancements because spending AP in that tree doesn't prevent anyone from spending AP any other tree selected, and vice versa.

That's just untrue. Spending in any class tree for any class will most certainly prevent spending in another tree if that is the third class tree you've spent points in.

[Dodoroq]

My few impressions from the new system... I admit I have not got to Lammania directly as of now, but anyway I am more a type of person to have some items on paper and think them over to prepare a build, and try it only then.

I do create both pure class toons and multiclassed ones, though I admit I like the multiclassed ones more. The presented preview of the enhancement system however clearly favors the pure ones - these will be better then now. Such characters will be able to fully develop one tree and get to tier 3 or 4 abilities in a second one, practically gaining in power significantly as opposed to current multiclasses.

Few things of what I like and dislike on the proposed system:
Likes:
- the trees overall more similar to ED's. I like the tiering of abilities and some of the dependencies, although I see some of them purely artificial and not necessary at all.
- unification of the prestige class conditions (while it was very simple AP-wise to get some of those before, others took 2x as much AP's to get to the max tier).
- I like the core enhancements idea somewhat (but see the dislikes section)

Dislikes:
- racial prestige classes are generally too difficult to obtain (AP-cost-wise). There is only one comparison available with the current system, which is Arcane Archer, and the new system fails there miserably. Previously to get to the topmost tier, it was necessary to spend 14 AP's in the system for an elf, now it is 56 - four times as much! I can see that in the process, I will get some other useful enhancements, but surely not 42-points of those. And, to be Arcane Archer AND something from the current class at the same time is not possible at all with current system.
- necessity to spend AP's on core abilities - I can somewhat see spending the points for Class capstone, but not for the tiers themselves.

And finally, to come with a criticism without suggestions would be non-professional, I would suggest few small amendments of the system directed towards the way this all would be much more pleasant. And as you can see, this will go mostly in the direction of the racial prestige classes, however the suggestion could influence much more things:

- Make the points spent in the racial tree count for the prestige class tree too. In this case, getting to elf AA would be "just" 42 points, part of which would be spent in the racial tree and part in the racial prestige class tree.
- Make the "core" abilities autogrants, much like for ED's, without the need to spend the AP's. I can see those as "paragon" abilities of the given class/race, and anyone who studies the path itself should have those abilities. Make them spaced with the tiers of abilities in the trees themselves - e.g. with 1, 5, 10, 20 (and 30?) points spent in the racial tree or 1, 5, 10, 20, 30 and 40 points spent in the class tree. Leave the level restrictions for them too, so that the class capstone can only be taken by a pure class.
- with the previous two points combined, for the core class features, only count the points spent in the given tree to qualify for them, not the points spent in racial tree for the racial prestige class core features.
- for the racial prestige class tree, count the character levels for requirement on the "core" features rather than the class levels.

An example then - a bardcher, character I am currently making, and to which I invested a lot of time in regards to making the enhancements viable in current system and thus also have good idea about. The class split is 16/2/2 bard/ranger/rogue.
- In the new system, I would spend for example 20 points in the racial tree including the AA entrance enhancement, which would qualify me for third racial core enhancement as an autogrant at the same time.
- Then, I would spend 28 points in the arcane archer tree. The total (including the race points spent) would mean I would be able to get Tier 5 abilities in the AA tree, at least few of them. Also, the 28 points spent in the AA tree would get me to Tier 4 core class ability there. If I ever wanted the AA capstone, I would need to spend 40 points in the AA tree alone in addition to the points spent in elven tree.
- I would spend 26 points in the spellsinger tree, qualifying me for taking Tier 3 abilities there at max and at the same time autogranting me 4th core class ability.
- The remaining 6 points I will have to select a tree to spend them into, if the limit of max 3 class trees + racial tree remains, from the selection of rogue tree(s), ranger tempest or DA trees, or bard warchanter tree. It would also autogrant me the first core ability (second in warchanter) for that prestige tree - first save the warchanter because my class levels are too low to apply for the second autogrant in ranger and rogue classes.
- As I am not pure-class, I am prohibited from any capstone save from the racial prestige class.

Reasoning behind this - the inclusion of the racial tree AP's spent into the racial class tree calculations makes it viable to make characters with racial prestige classes. However, if the dependencies stay in place, the player will still be forced to go from bottom tier to the higher at least for part of these points, eliminating some of the drawbacks of this approach, so that player will not be able to take only the best high-tier picks from such tree. Also, when fewer points are spent in the tree, the abilities of such racial prestiges would be weaker then the abilities of fully-grown AA's (for example).

This would have, if I am right, these effects compared to the current enhancement system suggestion:
- more toons using racial prestige classes from cross class toons (I would even say "At least some players considering racial prestige classes")
- more archetype toons with the synergies, like Elven AA rangers - when some abilities from racial tree count to the AA tree, there is more space to spend the points in the Deepwood Archer tree too, creating better archers from elves; the same would go for dwarven defenders being better then human defenders etc.
- also would, by my view, influence the diversity in class splits a bit.

[Aashrym]

That's just untrue. Spending in any class tree for any class will most certainly prevent spending in another tree if that is the third class tree you've spent points in.

And up until that point every single player has the option to select those enhancement until each player makes a choice that prevents it. All the player needs to do is choose to spend points for those enhancements, which is why it's completely true.

If I make a ranger I have access to FE enhancements unless I decide to choose something else instead.

[Stanley_Nicholas]

And up until that point every single player has the option to select those enhancement until each player makes a choice that prevents it. All the player needs to do is choose to spend points for those enhancements, which is why it's completely true.

If I make a ranger I have access to FE enhancements unless I decide to choose something else instead.

Which is a caveat you were conveniently glossing over in your oversimplified statement of pseudo-fact, making multi classing (especially 3 classes with a deep splash like today's 12/6/2 builds) seem less obtuse than it really is. I see small splashes being very popular under this system, but there will be much less justification for adding a third class than there is today.

[redoubt]

And up until that point every single player has the option to select those enhancement until each player makes a choice that prevents it. All the player needs to do is choose to spend points for those enhancements, which is why it's completely true.

If I make a ranger I have access to FE enhancements unless I decide to choose something else instead.

I would argue that the choice is being taken away by the new enhancement system. Here is an example.

My ranger is 18 ranger / 1 monk / 1 rogue

I have tempest 3 -- so tempest tree in the new system
dex -- tempest (but I need to get one more from another tree)
skill boost -- DWS
FE attack and damage -- DWS
search -- AA
spot -- AA
dex -- drow tree
drow attack and damage - drow tree
way of the patient tortuse -- monk tree?
disable skill +1 -- rogue tree?

As I see it, I need 6 trees under the new system to recreate my character there.

I'm not asking for just the high level enhancements either. In a lot of cases, i just want a small thing here and there, but my character is a generalist. I actually spend enhancement points on skills and skill boost (not sure if many people do).

I would still like to see more minor things at the lowest level. I think the ideas about counting points spent (as it is now) instead of points spent in tree is a great idea. Gate the enhancements by points spent and class level/character level as needed, but allow more trees and provide us the option to generalize some if that is what we want to do.

Thanks.

[Aashrym]

Which is a caveat you were conveniently glossing over in your oversimplified statement of pseudo-fact, making multi classing (especially 3 classes with a deep splash like today's 12/6/2 builds) seem less obtuse than it really is. I see small splashes being very popular under this system, but there will be much less justification for adding a third class than there is today.

It's not a pseudo-fact, it is a fact. The enhancements are there for any ranger until he or she makes a choice to select something different. There is every reason to add 2 class splashes on top when they are fighter for feats, rogue for skills and evasion, paladin for saves, etc. The currently low level gating even allows for cherry picking a low tier enhancement for those who really want them and do not see enhancements in the other trees they might prefer.

The restriction comes from the point buys in trees to unlock tiers and has absolutely nothing to do with how many classes we have because we can't unlock the top tier enhancements in more than 1 tree regardless of the number of classes or really invest heavily in more than 2 trees, or moderately in 3 trees. The AP isn't left over to do that.

In the meantime, choosing not to take an enhancement like FE bonuses because a person chooses to take something else is not the same as not having had access to those enhancements.

And /5/3 or /6/2 splashes will still be around. A /5 splash gives the player full access to any tree of their choice with the exception of 3 PrE abilities at the bottom. That's a big draw. /2 and /3 are still nice for front loaded class abilities and can open up 2nd and 3rd tier enhancements for players if there is a tree they want to pull enhancements from. Even 12/4/4 could be appealing for matching up trees up to tier 4 enhancements if that's where the players want to go depending on what is in the rest of the trees.

I expect we might to see more 15/5 and 16/4 builds too. There is a lot of benefit in the low level restrictions with multiclassing when everyone gets 3 trees but multiclassing gives us the best possibility for mix and matching trees.

If a person wants specific ranger enhancements, take them, and understand there was an opportunity cost in doing so with other enhancements. If a person wants to go pure, do so, and understand there is an opportunity cost in taking enhancements from other class trees and class features. If a person wants to multi and invest heavily in enhancements from another class tree, do so, and understand there is an opportunity cost because of the AP investment in that tree swapped it; that's the option that's being added for multiclassing.

Tree AP unlocks versus global AP unlocks for better enhancements is the real restriction, not the number of classes or level. That's been obvious since the layout was presented over a year ago. Players were never able to have everything and under the new type of system players obviously do have a lesser degree of everything. They do, however, still have a lot of choice and are, as always, ultimately restricted by how many enhancement they can purchase regardless.

I pointed out over a year ago in the new enhancement tree giant announcement thread this would be the case. It's obvious that if a person spends 40+ AP in on tree the result is going to be locked out enhancements in other trees, REGARDLESS OF NUMBER OF CLASSES, because we run out of AP before we can unlock all of the existing enhancements anyway. Not spending 40+ AP on one tree locks out enhancements regardless of number of classes. Anyone who states otherwise is missing the obvious while debating the pointless.

This issue has nothing to do with how many classes a person has because all characters have 1 race and the class trees which we cannot unlock all of or even fill half of.

[Aashrym]

I would argue that the choice is being taken away by the new enhancement system. Here is an example.

My ranger is 18 ranger / 1 monk / 1 rogue

I have tempest 3 -- so tempest tree in the new system
dex -- tempest (but I need to get one more from another tree)
skill boost -- DWS
FE attack and damage -- DWS
search -- AA
spot -- AA
dex -- drow tree
drow attack and damage - drow tree
way of the patient tortuse -- monk tree?
disable skill +1 -- rogue tree?

As I see it, I need 6 trees under the new system to recreate my character there.

I'm not asking for just the high level enhancements either. In a lot of cases, i just want a small thing here and there, but my character is a generalist. I actually spend enhancement points on skills and skill boost (not sure if many people do).

I would still like to see more minor things at the lowest level. I think the ideas about counting points spent (as it is now) instead of points spent in tree is a great idea. Gate the enhancements by points spent and class level/character level as needed, but allow more trees and provide us the option to generalize some if that is what we want to do.

Thanks.

If he was human your boosts and skill bonuses would all be in that tree and you would have healing amp to go with your build, as well has the human weapon training bonuses instead of the drow bonuses. That means you no longer need AA tree or some of the stuff in the other trees. The best thing for the build is to invest in tempest and deepwood, and the race tree.

Then you are hosed on AP left for any other trees anyway, but might be able to make use of the mechanic tree for the bonuses there on the first tier, which likely will be the source of your skill bonuses since you are on a drow. Search and spot are already in the drow tree and all you are looking for in mechanic is the trap abilities bonuses.

You don't need 1 tier of tortoise but that's supposed to cost 2 monk levels anyway, of which what you listed only has 1 monk level.

With the ability bonuses on the first tiers you actually get a higher bonus than your current build (+3 instead of +1), and drow get easy access to nothing is hidden for free checks on traps and secret doors.

Your build looks completely similar, tbh, and in some ways better. No need for 6 trees at all if the same bonuses are there in trees you do have, and no AP to spend in them anyway unless you think you would rather give up the best bonuses in DW and tempest for 1st tier enhancements.

[Jay203]

i still say do away with the craptacular 3 tree limit
been saying it since they announced this format and will still say it now. especially since i've seen some of what the new system has to offer

[Seikojin]

snip...
- Make the points spent in the racial tree count for the prestige class tree too. In this case, getting to elf AA would be "just" 42 points, part of which would be spent in the racial tree and part in the racial prestige class tree.
- Make the "core" abilities autogrants, much like for ED's, without the need to spend the AP's. I can see those as "paragon" abilities of the given class/race, and anyone who studies the path itself should have those abilities. Make them spaced with the tiers of abilities in the trees themselves - e.g. with 1, 5, 10, 20 (and 30?) points spent in the racial tree or 1, 5, 10, 20, 30 and 40 points spent in the class tree. Leave the level restrictions for them too, so that the class capstone can only be taken by a pure class.
- with the previous two points combined, for the core class features, only count the points spent in the given tree to qualify for them, not the points spent in racial tree for the racial prestige class core features.
- for the racial prestige class tree, count the character levels for requirement on the "core" features rather than the class levels.

Snip...
Reasoning behind this - the inclusion of the racial tree AP's spent into the racial class tree calculations makes it viable to make characters with racial prestige classes. However, if the dependencies stay in place, the player will still be forced to go from bottom tier to the higher at least for part of these points, eliminating some of the drawbacks of this approach, so that player will not be able to take only the best high-tier picks from such tree. Also, when fewer points are spent in the tree, the abilities of such racial prestiges would be weaker then the abilities of fully-grown AA's (for example).

This would have, if I am right, these effects compared to the current enhancement system suggestion:
- more toons using racial prestige classes from cross class toons (I would even say "At least some players considering racial prestige classes")
- more archetype toons with the synergies, like Elven AA rangers - when some abilities from racial tree count to the AA tree, there is more space to spend the points in the Deepwood Archer tree too, creating better archers from elves; the same would go for dwarven defenders being better then human defenders etc.
- also would, by my view, influence the diversity in class splits a bit.

I think the racial tree counting towards the req's in class trees is a good idea to help solve the problem created by the new tree system.

[Seikojin]

i still say do away with the craptacular 3 tree limit
been saying it since they announced this format and will still say it now. especially since i've seen some of what the new system has to offer

You can only have three class pres on live. And can only have three classes. It is a balance restriction. Allowing someone to take items from kensai, stalwart defender, shintao, tempest, and dwarven would be a bit overkill, new or old system. It would create less diversity because people would take very specific abilities to make their build beyond overpowered. Why invest into higher level spells if your dcs and spell pen is high enough to have the cheap ones work on EE?

[Stanley_Nicholas]

It's not a pseudo-fact, it is a fact. The enhancements are there for any ranger until he or she makes a choice to select something different. There is every reason to add 2 class splashes on top when they are fighter for feats, rogue for skills and evasion, paladin for saves, etc. The currently low level gating even allows for cherry picking a low tier enhancement for those who really want them and do not see enhancements in the other trees they might prefer.

The restriction comes from the point buys in trees to unlock tiers and has absolutely nothing to do with how many classes we have because we can't unlock the top tier enhancements in more than 1 tree regardless of the number of classes or really invest heavily in more than 2 trees, or moderately in 3 trees. The AP isn't left over to do that.

In the meantime, choosing not to take an enhancement like FE bonuses because a person chooses to take something else is not the same as not having had access to those enhancements.

And /5/3 or /6/2 splashes will still be around. A /5 splash gives the player full access to any tree of their choice with the exception of 3 PrE abilities at the bottom. That's a big draw. /2 and /3 are still nice for front loaded class abilities and can open up 2nd and 3rd tier enhancements for players if there is a tree they want to pull enhancements from. Even 12/4/4 could be appealing for matching up trees up to tier 4 enhancements if that's where the players want to go depending on what is in the rest of the trees.

I expect we might to see more 15/5 and 16/4 builds too. There is a lot of benefit in the low level restrictions with multiclassing when everyone gets 3 trees but multiclassing gives us the best possibility for mix and matching trees.

If a person wants specific ranger enhancements, take them, and understand there was an opportunity cost in doing so with other enhancements. If a person wants to go pure, do so, and understand there is an opportunity cost in taking enhancements from other class trees and class features. If a person wants to multi and invest heavily in enhancements from another class tree, do so, and understand there is an opportunity cost because of the AP investment in that tree swapped it; that's the option that's being added for multiclassing.

Tree AP unlocks versus global AP unlocks for better enhancements is the real restriction, not the number of classes or level. That's been obvious since the layout was presented over a year ago. Players were never able to have everything and under the new type of system players obviously do have a lesser degree of everything. They do, however, still have a lot of choice and are, as always, ultimately restricted by how many enhancement they can purchase regardless.

I pointed out over a year ago in the new enhancement tree giant announcement thread this would be the case. It's obvious that if a person spends 40+ AP in on tree the result is going to be locked out enhancements in other trees, REGARDLESS OF NUMBER OF CLASSES, because we run out of AP before we can unlock all of the existing enhancements anyway. Not spending 40+ AP on one tree locks out enhancements regardless of number of classes. Anyone who states otherwise is missing the obvious while debating the pointless.

This issue has nothing to do with how many classes a person has because all characters have 1 race and the class trees which we cannot unlock all of or even fill half of.

It was a pseudo-fact, because it is only true under certain conditions which you had failed to specify when proclaiming the "fact". Not outright false, but not as true as you were making it out to be.

As for the rest of your unnecessarily long-winded reply, you might want to take note that the prereq for reaching the top tier of a class tree is dropping from 40 AP to 30 AP, with an upcoming restriction that only one tree may have tier 5 abilities purchased in it. Top tier in racial trees is becoming more accessible too. So, the artificial limit of 3 class trees is looming even larger now that we aren't forced to waste as many APs in our tree(s) of focus. That limit is not justified or necessary.

[Stanley_Nicholas]

You can only have three class pres on live. And can only have three classes. It is a balance restriction. Allowing someone to take items from kensai, stalwart defender, shintao, tempest, and dwarven would be a bit overkill, new or old system. It would create less diversity because people would take very specific abilities to make their build beyond overpowered. Why invest into higher level spells if your dcs and spell pen is high enough to have the cheap ones work on EE?

Except on live, there are a ton of useful general enhancements not subject to much or any prerequisite restrictions, which have now been crammed into the PRE trees instead, reducing options and diversity due to the 3 tree limit and newly imposed prerequisites that were never needed for balance purposes before.

[IronClan]

Except on live, there are a ton of useful general enhancements not subject to much or any prerequisite restrictions, which have now been crammed into the PRE trees instead, reducing options and diversity due to the 3 tree limit and newly imposed prerequisites that were never needed for balance purposes before.

Agreed, there's really only a couple reasons why they would do it the way they have, as opposed to the way that doesn't break a bunch of existing builds.

A) they're valuing their system's "aesthetics" over functionality, as the old enhancements could all be in a "general" tree with old prerequisits. and no "in tree" spending requirements. And then no ones builds would break,... not even one.

B) they don't realize they don't have to break a bunch of builds and remove previously possible choices, but they've somehow missed all the threads about removing the in tree spending requirements and making a general old enhancements tree.

C) they want to break builds and restrict previous flexibility to re-balance the game and make it more new user/casual friendly (less options more predetermined paths which to be frank is exactly what most of the trees we've seen so far are) so they are not going to listen to the easy to implement suggestion of overall AP spent instead of AP in tree.

We'll see, this is being called an Alpha, and they're hopefully genuine in wanting feedback and by genuine I mean they're actually going to use some of the best suggestions.

[Aashrym]

It was a pseudo-fact, because it is only true under certain conditions which you had failed to specify when proclaiming the "fact". Not outright false, but not as true as you were making it out to be.

As for the rest of your unnecessarily long-winded reply, you might want to take note that the prereq for reaching the top tier of a class tree is dropping from 40 AP to 30 AP, with an upcoming restriction that only one tree may have tier 5 abilities purchased in it. Top tier in racial trees is becoming more accessible too. So, the artificial limit of 3 class trees is looming even larger now that we aren't forced to waste as many APs in our tree(s) of focus. That limit is not justified or necessary.

It's true the second you create a ranger. That's like saying we don't have the option on live now because the player chose to spend all his points on other things. The fact is all rangers have the option to spend their points on these enhancements until they make a choice to spend elsewhere.

As for the rest of your response, I had made the suggestion to change the top tier to 30 and appreciate that it was done.

[kingfisher]

The fact is all rangers have the option to spend their points on these enhancements until they make a choice to spend elsewhere.

wrong. a thousand times wrong. a multiclass ranger on live now can get all of the core ranger enh plus the low level enh from their splash classes. on alpha they cannot. this is a nerf, no matter what you say, how you spin it, its a NERF. regardless of how clouded your turbine fluffing eyes have become, the truth is still plain to see.

the idiotic and completely arbitrary 3 tree limit is all that is pushing this multiclass nerf. plain and simple. some moronic dev liked the pretty trees and they are shoehorning the game into their stupid format just because. and hurting the game because of it.

[EllisDee37]

It's not a pseudo-fact, it is a fact. The enhancements are there for any ranger until he or she makes a choice to select something different.

Which is far more restrictive than live. Favored Enemey: Damage is available to all rangers on live regardless what enhancement choices they make.

[kingfisher]

Which is far more restrictive than live. Favored Enemey: Damage is available to all rangers on live regardless what enhancement choices they make.

qft

[kingfisher]

Which is far more restrictive than live. Favored Enemey: Damage is available to all rangers on live regardless what enhancement choices they make.

still qft