Stalwart Stance requiring S&B is not acceptable

[HungarianRhapsody]

You know, I've been getting **** by being foolish enough to try to breathe a little sense into these doom threads for years, but so far I haven't been wrong about a single one of the major game mechanic changes, so I shall bow out and let you folks whine and cry for a few months until you go "Oh man this new stuff is awesome, I so knew it was gonna be." as usually is the case.

I have also been right about every significant thought that I've ever had.

Also, I missed the "a few months later" threads where people started loving the attack speed nerf from a couple of springs ago when TWF was smacked down. And the overwhelming love that we now feel for the split of Fire/Ice, Electric/Acid and Repair/Force. And the changes to challenge XP that we all love.

When you remember people changing their tune because they used to hate the change and now they love it, most of those are actually *different people*.

Turbine makes some good changes. Some of the changes that they make are terrible. Sometimes, they accept feedback on terrible changes before they go live and fix the problems. Sometimes they don't.

[HungarianRhapsody]

Also, I've been playing DDO since Elf was a class.

[eonfreon]

Yeah, being forced to use a shield pretty much kills the PrE for people who were using it for survivability rather than tanking (and assuming DoS follows suit, both PrEs will go from versatile to pigeonholed tank PrEs).

I'm going to stay optimistic, but I have a really bad feeling about what they'll do to Paladins. I just have this feeling that they don't like the "look" of TWF Paladins (it's not iconic enough, I guess) and are going to put all the bonuses into THF and S&B, thereby proxy-nerfing TWF Paladins into oblivion.

I really hope I'm wrong. I'll see in a couple of weeks. Maybe they'll get the hint that it may not be a good idea to completely change the game at this point. What keeps me invested in the game, despite the nerfs and bugs, is the characters I've created over years, using the rules as they were presented. To change all the rules at this late point seems ill-advised. If I'm going to have to basically create a completely different character and essentially start over, then I don't have as much invested in DDO any more. I might as well go play another game that has these sort of rules to safe-guard the sanctity of a "iconic look" from the ground-up, not tacked on because they want to see more shields used after years of not doing jack all for shields.

Oh well, I'll see. Just glad I don't have a subscription or I'd be really angry at what I'm seeing. As it is, I'm just disappointed.

[Ape_Man]

Also, I've been playing DDO since Elf was a class.

/win

[Uska]

Shield yes but not being able to use a scroll, wand or thrower is a big no!

[Uska]

Since I've been playing since the game was purely P2P and the level cap was 8, I'd like to think I have some grasp on the mechanics, but hey, you're entitled to your opinion, just remember, it's you folks who want nothing more than to have your cake and eat it too that actually lead to increased "cookie-cutter-ness" in the builds, it's not people who are willing to recognize that with power comes sacrifice, you want crazy DPS, you don't get crazy defense, you want crazy defense, you don't get crazy DPS, if you want both they're both going to be a little less crazy.

[Edited for typos, please let me know if you spot any in my posts.]

Just one thing the cap started at 10 and I have been here since beta

[Davelfus]

I'm mitigated on this change. Obviously, the objective is to prevent anyone to take this PrE by monks, which would otherwise make them the ultimate tanks (that was one of my thoughts: a monk in earth stance getting SD through race).

That being said, the condition should always be using shield and not shield + melee weapon.

LOL you do know the ac bonus in the entire prestige is based on armor? and that max a monk can get is like 16 from the flawless white dragon robe.

the real benefit would be the permanent +6 str/con (but then no rages),the extra HP and the PRR (which is pretty crappy on monks already)
And you need to spend like 40pts only on the stance improvements i belive, had to spent smth like that on my stalwart to get the same stance bonus i had on live.


BUT anyways if the idea is to restrict another build option (monk defenders) just make that if you go into the defensive stance you stay uncentered, that totaly negates the monk stances.

so we get back all options and nobody needs to stay paranoid about monk defenders destroying the server or smth...

[SealedInSong]

I think that a shield should be required to be in defensive stance, that said i think a shield should be the only requirement for being in defensive stance, I don't think it should matter at all if you have a shield and scroll, shield and thrower, shield and wand, shield and repeater, none of it matters to me, what I think is important is the shield.

Too many people take SD as it is for the added HP and essentially auto-constant rage (+6 str/con anyone?) for their dual wielders (maybe tanks but not stalwart defenders) and for their two handed fighters (again, can tank, not stalwart defenders.)
...(snip)

Particularly here. I see nothing wrong with someone being considered a vigorous, defensive warrior just because they aren't using a shield.

Being a defensive warrior isn't about carrying a shield--it's about making sacrifices in offense for greater defense. That's the difference between a kensei and a defender.

[voodoogroves]

Well, you can be wrong for a really long time.

I truly did spit soda.

[Lormyr]

I am going to keep my thoughts very brief.

This game's major strengths are it's interactive combat system, and the immense versatility of character creation the 3.5 DnD rules allow for. I cannot see how a character who does not employ a shied using this prestige line would break the game in any meaningful fashion, nor do I believe a defensive character having to employ a shield is a necessarily thematic element to this setting.

This change only removes this game's versatility and damage one of it's key strengths (which has been in steady decline over the last two year's changes), and does not appear to add anything meaningful in return. Please reconsider the shield being required.

[Bilger]

Quick question does the +shield on white flawless count as using a shield?

I have a TWF SD tank and it seems with this change that character will be completely nerfed.

[Munkenmo]

Quick question does the +shield on white flawless count as using a shield?

I have a TWF SD tank and it seems with this change that character will be completely nerfed.

No, neither does a shield wand.

the moment you swap your weapon even for another weapon, you'll be dropped out of stance, likewise with a shield.

This change coupled with how back ended the defender pre will be, has completely killed it in my eyes.

[Bilger]

So this pass is going to completely ruin tons of builds.

I don't like that idea of having to have a shield.

If shield wands or armor bonus applied that would be fine.

Why then even add that shield effect to white armor if not going to be used as shield and get bonuses from it.

[WruntJunior]

No, neither does a shield wand.

the moment you swap your weapon even for another weapon, you'll be dropped out of stance, likewise with a shield.

This change coupled with how back ended the defender pre will be, has completely killed it in my eyes.

This takes defender from a useful PrE (useful for builds that use it for the survivability bonuses) to a PrE useful for about the least useful role (a straight tank).

[count_spicoli]

Particularly here. I see nothing wrong with someone being considered a vigorous, defensive warrior just because they aren't using a shield.

Being a defensive warrior isn't about carrying a shield--it's about making sacrifices in offense for greater defense. That's the difference between a kensei and a defender.

You hit this right on the head. There is a massive difference between Kensai dps output and stalwart dps out put. Not everyone just takes stalwart. After 6 ftr lives i have always liked the option of changing between the prestiges with just swapping out enhancements. I do not want to hav to have a shield on to be in stance. You can. Defensiv twf in stalwart stance essentially sacrificing all the offensive prowess of the kensai(xtra dmg with chosen weapon, tactics, power surge, xtra action boosts and most of all xtra crit range). STUPID TURBINE!!!! DO NOT LET THIS GO LIVE!!!!!

[Bilger]

As another said I will stay optimistic at this point seeing as it is Alpha.

Want to learn more so will patch Lam in next couple of weeks and check it out later. (no time now hard enough keeping up with live atm)

Will keep a eye on forums but so far it is a big fail on Turbines part.

[ariel7]

There's a vast gulf of difference between change that is merely superficial and change that instantly invalidates years of hard work and effort. And since that quote from Gran Turismo is so popular these days, I would remind you that Clint's character said it to Korean kids who represented an ethnicity he and his pals once fought (and some died) at the command of others for. They were change of the "invalidating hard work and effort" sort, at least to him.

Gran Turino is an Eastwood movie. The "kids" are Hmong. Hmong for the very most part sided with the US. This post makes me sad.

[Jay203]

it certainly sucks for a lot of people for sure

but i'm fine with it, stalwart is no longer the end-all-be-all PrE for fighter
currently on live pretty much no one goes for kensei when they can go stalwart for the +6 str and con as opposed to +8 str burst that doesn't last that long and has a limited use per rest.

[psykopeta]

turbine is doing a great job transforming ddo into wow

divines will be able to heal only(casters? nah, they were too op in pnp, and protection will be useless if you're fvs for the prr)

fighters wil be tanks or twf
paladins will be thf or tanks
rogues will be twf or trappers
arti will be ranged or trappers(casters? nah)
rangers will be ranged or twf
barbs will be twf or thf
wizards will be cc or dps(all dc based, ofc)
sorcs will be dps(w/o dc prolly)
druids will be healers or melee(casters? nah, already have sorcs and wizards!!rofl)
bards will be healers or cc(melee? no way, there are too many melee classes)
monks will be twf, plain, choose light or dark, end of the options

so forget about customization, every class with different choices so they can do gear focused in the class instead of thinking how many classes can use it, forget about multiclassing and...forget about having a clue of rpg, soon the skills and traps will be removed from game, to make it easier to understand to wow players, the market where turbine is aiming with last changes

guess the exoddus is beginning even with the alpha version, simply because it's not the first time that turbine doesn't pay attention to the current population, interested in the "incoming players" (must say those are less every time)

at this point we'll end moving to NWN, not because is a good game, simply because ddo becomes and awful one

[Battlehawke]

I should probably start a seperate Thread for this, but it clearly looks like a lot of builds are going to be broken. I stress that it is incredibly disheartening to spend years building, developing and gearing out a toon and coming to enjoy the way it "plays" and then suddenly it doesn't "feel" the way it used to. Either you can't do tasks that you used to or it isn't nearly as good as it was. It is invested time gone building something that works for you.

Turbine has got to understand that "breaking" toons is one of the biggest reason that we lose players. I've seen many players go away over the years because of this and its dissapointing.

I think that when this EH pass comes into fruition, every toon in every server should be given a Reincarnation Stone that allows you to change everything about your toon and you can immediately level from level zero back to your previous level and retain your past lives and ED's. Being able to change Race and Sex is expected. I think everyone should maybe even get two of theses stones. At least you know that if your toon is broken, you have a chance at building something worth playing.


Yes, some people will take advantage of it, but almost everyone will still be playing.....