A few thoughts after reading...

[Violith]

The arti trees are confusing, largely due to the inflated AP cost. That the Endless Barrage (I think that's the name...) is now the capstone is vexing, and causes problems for builds that went 6 arti just for that, but it might be that the ability - to be honest - is ridiculous at level 6. Not that I mind being able to kill an entire room, mind you...



Two things that would make a huge difference:

1) Crank down the costs.
2) Remove class-level gating. Make it all character-level dependent. If you splash two rogue on a fighter for evasion, then let the toon be a thief-acrobat, complete with capstone. If the Core becomes an autogrant, then have a high AP cost to purchase cross-class Core skills...like 2 AP each, and maybe 3-4 for a cross-class capstone.

the endless fusalage isnt a capstone, its a t5 ability (Costs 24 (20 to unlock teir, 2 for the t5 prereq and 2 to get it) so its possible to get it at lvl 6 still if all you buy is stuff from the battle engineer prestige.

[Ganolyn]

Yes. They are equal. Each provides 10% more DPS or on-hit effects compared to before, regardless of how fast or slow you were attacking before you got the Doublestrike or Extra Shot.

Which is fair.

Guys (by this I mean players) don't keep trying to make melee and ranged on par with each other. Damage mitigation alone makes up for the less DPS you may be doing compared to a fully geared and suped up melee. They are different styles of play and it is one of the choices we enjoy in this game. Both have their shining moments.

[rest]

Yes. They are equal. Each provides 10% more DPS or on-hit effects compared to before, regardless of how fast or slow you were attacking before you got the Doublestrike or Extra Shot.

So whats the word on other sources of double strike? Items/feats/destiny abilities? Is doublestrike being changed to work for either melee or ranged? Or are you kicking ranged focus toons in the jimmies some more?

[Cetus]

I can sort of see this but at the same time I feel like it would be taking significant steps back on the good changes to the enhancement system in order to avoid some of the more negative aspects.

I would suggest instead of having a general tree, make the prestige trees slightly bigger by fitting in more duplicates of the basic abilities in all the trees. That is to say, the most basic things should be available in the tree no matter what tree you are in, or at least in more trees than just one.

Otherwise, the biggest benefit of the new enhancement system is how much you can get out of a prestige class without being too heavily invested in the base class. If there were few abilities in prestige trees, they would have to be limited again by class level the way they are today.

A duplicate ability is just another way of introducing general class abilities. An ability that is common to all trees might as well exist in its own core section, away from the racial or PrE lines.

The more I'm thinking about it, the more I think a core ability section would be better.

Here's how you do it: Decide which abilities are strictly class abilities e.g. Haste boost is a FIGHTER ability, not kensei or stalwart. Sprint boost is a RANGER or BARB ability etc...

Throw all of those class based abilities in a separate panel, forget all that arrow garbage. I hate linked enhancements due to restrictions. Place them in tiers according to their power and allow all action points spent in the core panel and the PrE panel to count ofr each others AP's spent limitations.

Done

Edit: If introducing this seperation causes the panels to look a little empty, introduce some new abilities. Our CENTRAL limitation is 80 AP's. If you give us all the enhancements in the world, we can only take 80 points worth of enhancements, so:

Introduce a bunch of new stuff that might be useful for a variety of purposes - let us sift through a bunch of stuff for superior customization. Some folks had a few good ideas already, one of which sticks out is the Staggering Blow: Tripped targets are helpless if you are using your focused weapon (kensei).

[Systern]

Spending 20 AP gets you to Tier 4. Spending 4 more AP gets Endless Fusillade.

Tier 4 does not correspond to high character level requirement.

Currently on Live, you invest 11 AP, you get Battle Engineer I which includes the clickie. You meet your prereqs (7 AP), you save up the 4 points you get from Level 5, and BLAM! Level 6 you take your prestige.

Alpha, if you spend every single point you get you can get Fusillade right before level 7. No other diversification. no AP spent in your racial enhancements, or anything else.


While it's true that Tier 4 is restricted to Arti 4, this means that a Level 6, Arti 4/Rogue 2 can have evasion and fusillade, they also can't spend any points on anything but that goal.

[Qezuzu]

Spellcraft and Heal:

I'm not totally against moving the spellpower enhancements to the skill system, but if you really have to, give all the classes that take spellpower an additional skill point (and Clerics, Druids and FvS two, due to Heal). And make it so that the highest of INT, WIS, or CHA is the modifier for your Spellcraft. It's absurd that a Sorcerer's casting stat doesn't contribute to the skill that gives them more spellpower.

Or better yet, just drop this idea and give a bonus to universal spellpower based on class levels. +4 at level one, +1 for each level.

The Enhancement System:

Overall criticisms:

• Way, WAY too many prerequisites as compared to live, e.g:
  
  • Currently, Ranger Sprint Boost requires no investment in ranger enhancements, only levels. The first tier of Ranger Sprint Boost requires 1 AP
  • With the new system, you need to invest 5 points in the Tempest line BEFORE you can even purchase Sprint Boost. The first tier of Sprint Boost now requires 7 AP (and, besides Whirling Blades, all of the Tier 1 abilities are worthless). For a Ranged-specced Ranger who already has Sprint Boost, you are doing nothing but wasting six of their AP
  
  
• Players already invest in a class by taking class levels, they shouldn't have to invest so heavily in the class's enhancements
  
  • Currently, someone who wants Fighter or Rogue haste boost would take a level of that class and purchase the enhancements. They give up the capstone for their base class. Deeper splashes give up even more
    
    • With the current system, getting a specific, desired enhancement out of a class could be extremely cost intensive, depending on what it is you want to buy
    
    
  • Something interesting happens when you get even deeper splashes, like 12/8. Almost no power is lost from the base class: you give up the fifth and sixth core abilities, and *nothing else* (unless you count class-based DC effects, spells, or auto-granted/extra feats [of which many classes have none]). A 8/6/6 build gives up nothing but the fourth, fifth, and sixth core abilities of each class, yet unlocks every other enhancement for each class. I believe that this could create a large power gap between multi-classed and pure builds. I'm not saying a multi-classed toon shouldn't be more powerful, but I don't think they should be overtly so
    
    • Enhancement costs, however, are so high that it may not even matter. But I imagine a lot of builds coming up that have 12 to 15 levels in Ranger, Monk or Fighter (who get a lot of benefit from auto-granted/extra feats), but take a second class that has better enhancements and spend all the points in those trees
    
    
  
  
• The goal of the enhancements pass should have been to complete/add more prestige classes, buff the classes/prestiges that needed it, and improve the UI. Additional objectives could have been remove . What you're doing here is far too disruptive. You should work with what you already have, because the current system works but could be better

Some suggestions:

• Prestige lines should be reserved for prestige abilities. It is appropriate for Shield of Whirling Steel to be in the Tempest line. It is not appropriate for Sprint Boost to also be in there, even if it fits the theme of "speedy".
• Each class and race should have a "general enhancements" tree
  
  • These enhancements would NOT require the purchase of other enhancements in the "general enhancements" tree, unless they're an upgrade of a previously bought general enhancement (e.g. Spell Penetration II requires Spell Penetration I)
  • General enhancements are unlocked by using AP in any other tree, eg. tier 3 of the general enhancements is unlocked by spending twelve total AP
  • General enhancements would require a certain number of class levels
  • The general enhancements tree would contain enhancements that shouldn't be buried under prerequisites that aren't very useful. Human Healing Amp is a very important enhancement, yet is now buried under a bunch of other prerequisites that you might not want. Currently, TierIII of healing amp costs 12 AP. Now, if you want to keep it, you need to spend an additional 10 AP. It doesn't matter what racial enhancements you could purchase with that AP; it eats away at the AP you could have spent in other places. *No one* enjoys having to purchase things they don't want, just to unlock abilities they do want. And there is a lot of that in this build
  • A lot of the general enhancements will be (and should be) a copy-paste of existing enhancements
  
  
• Power should be moved back to the level of your class, and away from the number of enhancements you invest in that class. This would be accomplished by raising the required class level of the tiers, and lowering their AP cost (and/or giving auto-grants)

The User Interface:

The current one is a piece of junk. Has to refresh after you purchase something, the "hide these items" doesn't persist after a refresh (no, I don't want Improved Repair on my Rogue, stop showing it), lots of scrolling... this new one is better, but still a piece of junk. It could be a lot better. Quite simply, it takes up way too much screen space. I don't need to see the enhancements from one class, or my racial enhancements, if I'm working on the enhancements for another.

Suggestion:



It's so intuitive I won't even explain it.

[ZzpxpzZ]

A duplicate ability is just another way of introducing general class abilities. An ability that is common to all trees might as well exist in its own core section, away from the racial or PrE lines.

The more I'm thinking about it, the more I think a core ability section would be better.

Here's how you do it: Decide which abilities are strictly class abilities e.g. Haste boost is a FIGHTER ability, not kensei or stalwart. Sprint boost is a RANGER or BARB ability etc...

Throw all of those class based abilities in a separate panel, forget all that arrow garbage. I hate linked enhancements due to restrictions. Place them in tiers according to their power and allow all action points spent in the core panel and the PrE panel to count ofr each others AP's spent limitations.

Done

Edit: If introducing this seperation causes the panels to look a little empty, introduce some new abilities. Our CENTRAL limitation is 80 AP's. If you give us all the enhancements in the world, we can only take 80 points worth of enhancements, so:

Introduce a bunch of new stuff that might be useful for a variety of purposes - let us sift through a bunch of stuff for superior customization. Some folks had a few good ideas already, one of which sticks out is the Staggering Blow: Tripped targets are helpless if you are using your focused weapon (kensei).

What I was meaning when I was mentioning the issue wasnt anything about making the panels smaller, I mean that due to the nature of how they limit you from taking higher tier abilities by having you spend points in lower tier abilities, if your prestige trees are small, it would take minor point investment to reach the top abilities.

Since its obvious that they need SOME form of limitation on their best prestige abilities, this means that if they move the common filler abilities out of the prestige trees they need to use a different limitation - most likely returning to the way it is on live using significant level limitations instead.

One of the best parts of this change really is the fact that it does a way with a lot of the limitations on what kind of class spread you must have to achieve certain prestige class goals. To be honest, in my opinion, this is the only aspect of this overhaul, outside of the slight simplification of the enhancement system that may be convenient for new players but was definitely far from necessary, that needed the rest of the overhaul to achieve. Everything else, the new prestige classes, new more interesting abilities, AP cost standardization, etc, could reasonably have been implemented on the old system.

[Scraap]

Spending 20 AP gets you to Tier 4. Spending 4 more AP gets Endless Fusillade.

Tier 4 does not correspond to high character level requirement.

(20+4)/4+1 = 7, unless one of the long term plans is to shift that extra 4 points we get from capping on down to an initial customization pool at level 1.

[legendlore]

Reduction to Arcane Spell Failure appears in two of Battle Engineer's Core Abilities (both called "Infused Armor"). If you have both, it reduces your Arcane Spell Failure by 20%.

Thanks, nice to hear.

After testing again I see why I missed it though, it wasn't all that obvious that these had to be bought by action points after being used to the same layout in epic destines where they are free.

[SealedInSong]

1. There is no loss of freedom for multi-class, there is if anything more. You only need 1-8 levels of a class (usually toward the lower end, but max 8 with fighter so far) to take top tier abilities for a class.

to the contrary. Where you are seeing fewer class levels required, most of us are seeing *entire* trees locked out due to lack of action points and the inherent design of the system.

Other than that, I appreciate the positive tone of your post.

[SealedInSong]

To stem the surely-coming notion that things are going to later change because someone said something:
Abilities with the same name shouldn't be stacking. Like some positive things, we haven't put all restrictions in at this time. Wand Mastery from 3 different trees isn't intended to stack, for instance.

Let them stack. If someone wants to take 3 classes to have access to them, let them. They're already locking out the top tiers of multiple trees to do it.

If someone wants to gimp themselves to be the best scroll healer ever...shouldn't that be our choice?

[BOgre]

Suggestion:



It's so intuitive I won't even explain it.

Love it. Very +1.

[SealedInSong]

The only workable solution is to put in a general tab for each class that contains core abilities, and split the PrE stuff into their own much smaller trees. This allows us to retain the current functionality of having 1 PrE per class, since the other trees could be safely locked out once you invest into one of them, and making the investment into one of them doesn't prevent you from getting core abilities elsewhere. And yes, this could mean that a given character might have 3 general trees AND 3 PrE trees, in addition to the racial tree.

Dividing absolutely everything into PrE trees is a HORRENDOUS design decision that I honestly cannot fathom at all.

This was proposed so many times (probably by you and many others) in the hundreds of pages of pre-alpha speculation.

I don't even know how to respond to seeing it not included. Perhaps if all the costs were globally but in half, that might help, but that still doesn't address the tree limit--another thing warned against in the hundreds of pre-alpha feedback.

[SealedInSong]

saying that there are more options and that is better is just as false a statement. There is no way to look at this but anything as a nerf to customization. If this were to hit live, no character would be able to do what they could today. Going. Its a complete change from what has made this old game great.

+1

[Missing_Minds]

A few thoughts after attempting to get Lama installed.

Just don't bother.

1. pando won't work right.
2. Lama won't connect. (and it isn't a firewall issue because that was even turned off)
3. removing lama and panda may hose your system.

Hard to believe that last one right? Well that is exactly what happened to me. I'm just glad a system restore fixed it. Otherwise that would have been a fresh install of windows to get it fixed.

BTW, developers. Someone doesn't do their job well over there. You install it, and the publisher still comes up as Atari.

[voodoogroves]

This was proposed so many times (probably by you and many others) in the hundreds of pages of pre-alpha speculation.

I don't even know how to respond to seeing it not included. Perhaps if all the costs were globally but in half, that might help, but that still doesn't address the tree limit--another thing warned against in the hundreds of pre-alpha feedback.

I still say put the entire class, all general and PREs, one one panel. Then have tabs like the spell selector panel. Have a racial panel as well. Then if you restrict things by points spent in tree, so be it - it's the whole class. The multi-selectors (like energy type in Draconic Incarnation) can basically activate the various PREs, while the other abilities can remain general.

All bards can then take improved perform. All bards can take extra song. Different PREs may add different effects to Inspire Courage / Competence ... and choosing those early multi-selectors lines you up for different song options.

Treat each class like an ED. Give it a bit mroe space, sure ... but treat each class like an ED.

[Jay203]

Spending 20 AP gets you to Tier 4. Spending 4 more AP gets Endless Fusillade.

Tier 4 does not correspond to high character level requirement.

and 24 points is more than 1/4 of the available APs we have to spend

current on live we spend
3 AP for Damage boost II
4 AP for Crossbow Attack I + Crossbow Damage I
4 AP for Battle Engineer
----
11 AP total spent

the requirement for Battle Engineer was 16 total AP spent, not 16 total Artificer enhancement spent

the AP spent in Tree requirement should stay in the Core ability list
the tree ability should be total AP spent

[Henky]

Spending 20 AP gets you to Tier 4. Spending 4 more AP gets Endless Fusillade.

Tier 4 does not correspond to high character level requirement.

And thats level 7, not 6. And you have to spend ALL of your APs in that tree. Currently on live, on a WF Artificer level 6:

Enhancement: Artificer Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Artificer Damage Boost II
Enhancement: Artificer Crossbow Attack I
Enhancement: Artificer Crossbow Damage I
Enhancement: Artificer Battle Engineer I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Force Manipulation I
Enhancement: Repair Manipulation I
Enhancement: Repair Manipulation II
Enhancement: Artificer Energy of Creation I
Enhancement: Artificer Intelligence I
Enhancement: Artificer Intelligence II
Enhancement: Warforged Constitution I

[blerkington]

The only workable solution is to put in a general tab for each class that contains core abilities, and split the PrE stuff into their own much smaller trees. This allows us to retain the current functionality of having 1 PrE per class, since the other trees could be safely locked out once you invest into one of them, and making the investment into one of them doesn't prevent you from getting core abilities elsewhere. And yes, this could mean that a given character might have 3 general trees AND 3 PrE trees, in addition to the racial tree.

Dividing absolutely everything into PrE trees is a HORRENDOUS design decision that I honestly cannot fathom at all.

Hi,

Great suggestion, goes a long way to solving some of the problems with the proposed system.

Thank you and +1.

[blerkington]

I hate the old system.

Hi,

Do you think you could say a little more about this please?

What do you hate about the old system? In what way do you think the new system is an improvement?

Thanks.