A few thoughts after reading...

[maximus123123]

MULTICLASSING

The greatest pain that I can see is the prerequisite "Points Spent In Tree."

The problem is, when you move over to a new tree, you have to spend the same minimums to climb up the tree. We only have 80 points to spend which forces one to either specialize in one tree or just take the basic minimums in two or three (keeping in mind you still need to meet feat prerequisites as well still).

I would suggest making the "Points Spent In Tree" prerequisite for each enhancement be global across trees so that you don't have to always start from the bottom. If you have the "Points Spent" minimum established in say Arcane Archer, you should be able to get a higher up enhancement from another tree so long as you have the feat and enchancement prerequisites (not the "Points Spent In Tree" for that specific tree). This is the mechanic that will restrict multiclassing in my opinion. One already is forced to take lower level enhancements they may not want in order to move up. Repeat that on the next tree and more wasted points. Then on the third tree and...you can see how it gets expensive real quick. And this is regardless of the build. This goes for really any multiclassed character.

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ARCANE ARCHER

Don't like:

No Sprint Boost enhancement (must have feats for Tempest to get that from that tree).

All the new Arrow Attacks that require spell points and have a cooldown.
There is a reason Deepwood Sniper never took off before and (at least for me) the main reason was because I had to remember to click something every 20 seconds or so. Now that mechanic has been expanded to Slaying Arrows -- the main draw of Arcane Archer for the last few years. So now Slayer Arrows require spell points (20 points per click) and can only be used once every 20 seconds. Don't know about others, but if this goes in as is, I'll pass on it.

Likes:

Secondary stances in addition to primary stance (multiple imbues in effect).
Metalline arrow stance.
Bludgeon, Slashing damage stance.
Elemental arrows with other effects when you get Improved Elemental Arrows.

For me at least, bottom line for Arcane Archer are more imbues and or stances (even possibly tertiary stances in addition to the secondary) and fewer things you have to click to proc -- especially when that involves spell points and cooldowns. Most AA's do not have a whole lot of spell points to work with and it gets even less when you are talking about pure Fighter AA's for example. Even if you get rid of the spell point usage and reduce cooldowns, I personally just can't be bothered to remember to click various Arrow attacks along with all the other hotbarred buttons I already have tied to my number keypad.

[Henky]

There have been some mistakes and some oversights. We absolutely planned for Fighter to still have Haste Boost. For various and sundry reasons it is not in the current build on Lamannia. It's absolutely a bug. Any similar issues that look "wrong" to any player should be bugged.

What about Fighter STR III? Wizard Intelligence III? Monk Wisdom III? Etc. Are class-based stats now limited to 2 points now? Why? Just make it one ability with 3 ranks.

[danotmano1998]

I can completely understand why people here are discouraged.

But the dev opened the door for bug reports. Heck, we were DARED to inundate them!

If I could get Lamma land to work again on my system, I would be flooding them with everything I saw wrong in the enhancement system. Since people on the forums care A LOT about DDO, I don't understand why this isn't happening more.

I cannot remember a time in DDO when the dev's begged for feedback.
And people say "Why? It's a waste of time."

If you are in fact one of the people who is throwing up their hands in disgust and walking away, you are forfeiting any rights to complain when the system comes out. Let's take out our big-boy/girl pants and help instead of nag and complain?

[Gratch]

The is some serious stuff in here the shoe-horns us into cookie-cutting "Neverwinter" builds . . . and if I wanted to play a game with that little freedom it might as well be a new one.

You've spouted this in every thread with minor complaints about individual costs or notes on how a specific current build is broken (screw current builds btw... new building is more fun). But you haven't explained why the new system (not individual alpha-level abilities/costs) is worse. Do you have any constructive words as to how the 1 racial panel, 3 class panel UI plus trees forces cookie-cutter (a.k.a. everyones the same in the end).

Let's compare the systems on a few points (WALL OF TEXT):

-Requires 40 AP's to hit top tier PRE abilities - Very similar to old system in that you could have one PRE3 (one PRE2 actually - L12 req)... though now there's more you can take at the summit...and now you could take two PRE2's worth instead. The con being that some of those awesome things require you to max this class panel to take them. So abilities at this top 40AP level should be panel defining, but possibly some abilities that make the game more dynamic and fun should be moved down to a more sharable level (I think ALL WEAPONS ARE CENTERED would qualify here as a move of the plateau). This may be the strongest "Cookie-cutter" argument as two characters with top of the panels will probably have a lot of similar abilities... though how different are current Defender 3's or Shintao 3's? Hmmm... so maybe you're more about the PRE2's current level disappearing...

-Top of tree only requires class level 5 in many cases. This is just huge in disconnecting what your multiclass levels are to the class panels you use. This means both a 12monk/8ftr and a 20 ftr can be Kensai 3. Though the 20 ftr gets a lot more of the core abilities. Completely unpossible in the current system. The new system mostly lets you take class levels for what those class levels get you w/o worrying what AP's they unlock. Why is this not awesome to people?

-I only get to pick from 3 class panels While this is sort of a design/UI restriction of the new system it's probably seen by many as "limiting" even though they complain about not having any AP for all 3 panels. Given there's only a few classes up now I'll have to wait and see how multi-class plays out. So far I'm only ending up with a few AP left anyways once racial/top-panel PRE's are done. I do see this as maybe losing one or two "side-tree" sort abilities from current builds - but there's lots of other new abilities to invest in and at least all the top tier ones don't cost 8AP anymore (though they may cost AP to get there).

-I have to spend AP to unlock top abilities. Yes. But at least you're spending AP on other abilities instead of just paying crazy top-tier costs (Human Amp3 going from 12AP to 6AP). Most things have gone down in AP costs with this system. If you don't like the stuff you have to take to get there then (see below):

- My defender doesn't want to use a shield/My fighter wants to swing faster/My cleric wants to have enough sp AND blow-up dem level 70 spiders in EEdetour: File bugs, give feedback. These are specific abilities that can be tuned RIGHT NOW. There's both spaces in the trees to add these sort of things as well some one-off-never-use abilities that could be replaced with some intrinsic things the devs lost.

[ArcaneArcher52689]

While I agree with most of the complaints about the AP requirements, I also understand that we shouldn't be able to spend our points elsewhere and get top tier enhancements.

So, what if we did something like this
X AP spent required to access this tier of enhancements, 2/3 X required to be spent in corresponding tree. Don't remember the exact values, i remember top tier AA required 40 points spend in tree.

In this, it would be 40 points spent TOTAL, and 26 points spent in tree. This would keep things open and really help racial trees when full implemented. Also, it would help limit "wasting" points

[Missing_Minds]

What have you done?!

Put you to work by the sounds of it.

[Ape_Man]

Do you have any constructive words . . .

Scrap the whole system.

Start over.

Oh heck, just leave the current system in place while removing some of the feat/AP pre-reqs is better that whats on Lamania.

[rest]

Scrap the whole system.

Start over.

Oh heck, just leave the current system in place while removing some of the feat/AP pre-reqs is better that whats on Lamania.

Yes.

[BOgre]

Hey y'all hope you are having fun. Just some thoughts after reading the threads here.

Most of the restrictions are in there so we can see which ones work...and which ones suck. The screws are intentionally tight, AP costs, prereqs, exc, and most likely will not be that way when we go live. The devs intentionally wanted to start at ' most painful' and throttle back instead of most open and then deal with the 'gar nerf' rage when we released. We really try to have a 'no nerf' policy at this point...except when trees are drunk or obvious exploits.

As for listening, that is what this is all about. This system is 4 days out of alpha by QA standards and is very very raw. We want...no...need player feedback as early as possible. The behind the scenes view from QA goes something like this: Thursday we update Lamania. Monday we collate last week's data and bugs write reports and make charts graphs with glossy photos and stuff. Thursday we update again, new classes and whatnot. rinse repeat. In a month or so after this schedule...the date has not been locked down...or even really talked about yet, we do this all again with the changes, and in my opinion at that point without class restrictions so the multiclassers can break it in all new interesting ways. There probably will be a third pass after that, but at that point stuff will be pretty locked down to how it will be on live. So here is YOUR chance to help us make this right.

@@@

Take a few days, and remember when you build a character you are not filling out 20 levels all at the same time. Also, I find build planning potentially easier this way, and I think for some non-hardcore players this is visually easier to understand how to get to a planned goal. Far easier actually. I hate the old system. ***

This is talked about a ton, and nothing is concrete at this point. Enter bugs with examples. Tons and tons of bugs. Make Gazebo cry.

I like a lot of the feedback already here. Keep it coming!

OK, first, thanks for piping in. Really, we appreciate knowing that you're watching. Now for the bashing:

*** You can't possibly be this disconnected. Of COURSE we're planning and building all 20 levels at the same time. So many builds rely on an LR/GR upon reaching cap. I mean, we have a leveling build, and a capped build. What's more, enhancements have always been fluid, changing and being reset and monkeyed with as we level. We're working under the assumption that we'll be resetting at cap, and we plan and design our build by spending all 20 levels before hand. Now, IF we were given the ability to click our desired end ability and have the UI fill in the prereqs for us, THAT would make things easier to plan, but as it stands now the "arrow" prereqs are nothing more than an added restriction.

@@@ IF we thought that all classes were getting all 3 PrEs completed, that paragraph would hold water. However, it seems that's not going to be the case, so looking at things piecemeal like this accomplishes nothing. Either you're doing a real enhancement pass or you're not, and by the looks of things, you're not.

we haven't put all restrictions in at this time.

Really? When will enough be enough?

[Systern]

To stem the surely-coming notion that things are going to later change because someone said something:
Abilities with the same name shouldn't be stacking. Like some positive things, we haven't put all restrictions in at this time. Wand Mastery from 3 different trees isn't intended to stack, for instance.

So my Arti currently is getting +5 int, +1 racial, and +2 from each tree. If these aren't supposed to stack, it's going to make putting points into a perceived weak tree that much harder.

I need points in ArcanoTechnician, for the USP and Points Spent Qualifiers, but there's nothing in there that I WANT to put points into... Hrmm.

(Capped SLAs and beefing up a braindead dog aren't appealing.)

[Tagros]

I realise the multi-classing options are still in development, and I appreciate that this is at ALPHA stage, but I think you will need to provide an option to reconstruct toons that are part way through levelling.
I had copied 5 toons over the Lammania to see how things work.
One is a L10 human cleric, (1st TR after reaching L20 cleric). It was aiming for the L12 cleric PrE so that you can have the 'ready-brek' glow that heals everyone around you. The only thing I could see that was equivalent was something for late game (requiring 40APs to have already been spent in the tree (can't remember if it was healing or protection)). This was discouraging to start with, but I'm sure that will be sorted out.

I also copied over a Level23 Kensai 3/Arcane Archer 3. Kensai3 means that it L18 fighter - to get AA I went half-elf, wiz1, ranger1. This is no longer a viable character.
To get to slaying arrows (which are now a stupid clickie ability) requires 5 levels of ranger as a pre-req - most of the AA options require at least 2 lvls of ranger.
The fact that I'm L23 means that its not really a problem for this toon as I can TR and start over. If I was at L15 or so, the toon would be a complete wipe. You will need to have some form of 1 use character regen that allows current characters to just start again (i.e. from a L13 Ftr/L1 Wiz/L1 Rgr Kensai/AA which is non longer tenable, to resurrect it to a L15 AA or even to a L15 cleric if they want).

Also, from the point of view of someone like me who does not use short-cut keys at all, please cut down on the clickies needed - Passive feats and enhancements are so much more useful - or a single click and then that option is always ON until you click it OFF (WASD is of no use to me as I hit half the keyboard around them at the same time. My personal Dex score is so low that I have to use the arrow keys between the QWERTY and the NumPad)

PS: Ready-brek glow is a reference to an old porridge advert here in the UK. I can't remember the real name anymore, its what we call it in our guild.

[mikarddo]

Thanks Maj

Good to hear you are listening at this point atleast. Odd that you want to call basic core design issues "bugs" but in that case - sure, will do.

[Scraap]

Wand Mastery from 3 different trees isn't intended to stack, for instance.

warning: ranty

I will say this, since you brought it up: short of healing, or one very specific only ever pure class, you do realize wands and scrolls that are actually effected by the damage amp are not generally a plat-sink precisely because they are so horrifically low compared to innate casting, and the DC amps are just sad in the context of the encounters we face, right? And I'm talking TR3 wiz with enhancement going into Tear of Dhakaan and blowing through 150 PK charges for giggles a couple days back here. Not even high end stuff.

tl;dr: prime example of system design without the enlightenment of context in which that system is utilized

/end ranty

OK, that being said, killing off same-name stacking is fine, provided there's more give to the points-in tree setup, be that via a global points spent, lower points per tree required, or lower overall costs.

AND: This is the important bit-you folks are reviewing quests in the context of what we are capable of attaining when we are capable of attaining it.

[Taojeff]

Wow, this is a serious tester! Someone should hire you

They could not afford me. But seriously, everyone can do just as good by ACTUALLY testing some of it. I mean the dojo is there, just TR, Lesser TR, rinse and repeat. I heard that grouping is bugged atm on lama, but you can still get into challenges and other quests, solo.

The long and short of it is, that this is alpha and they are showing it to us asking for constructive help. If you are invested in this game, it is worth it to supply constructive criticism and suggestions.

[Ganolyn]

Yes.

Yes, Yes.

A new UI with some AP costs adjusted and some PrE's filled out or reworked would fix everything.

[DarkForte]

Why? If the past is any indication of what the future holds, you'll pretend to listen and take feedback and say you want bug reports then just do whatever you **** well please anyway.

I also think releasing the trees in a staggered fashion like this is incredibly limiting. I can't grasp the whole picture. I WANT to be overwhelmed by information. I process it better that way.

Being forced into stupid pre-reqs for stuff you actually want is hogwash. Not being able to count points spent in other trees towards your total is hogwash. As it is on live right now, if I want X enhancement I have to spend Y points. Those Y points can be from any number of things, as long as I meet the feat requirements/level requirements/class requirements and total points spent. Not points spent only as a Kensai (who got royally cornholed, btw) or points spent only as an AA (who didn't get it as bad as Kensai, but is still awful) but maybe points spent on Human Recovery I and Toughness I.

I won't even go into what you've done to toughness. It's just.. ugh.

You know what I'd really like to see happen with this revamp? Bring back Breca. The Fatesinger ED is one of the most well designed EDs out there, since it has something for everyone. It really sucks to level up as a GMoF on my eSOS kensai wearing heavy red. Almost none of the abilities help me.

What this guy said. To the exception I don't really like fatesinger.

[voodoogroves]

a) What category do you want nonfunctional enhancements under? (Ended up picking skills for the one report yesterday)

I usually do skills.

b) What category do you want DEAR LOLTH WHAT HAVE YOU DONE design disagreements under?[/QUOTE]
"Stuck in game world" an option? ;-)

[Vargouille]

To stem the surely-coming notion that things are going to later change because someone said something:
Abilities with the same name shouldn't be stacking. Like some positive things, we haven't put all restrictions in at this time. Wand Mastery from 3 different trees isn't intended to stack, for instance.

I wrote this a bit too quickly; there are exceptions, such as ability scores, or within the same tree.

[rest]

What this guy said. To the exception I don't really like fatesinger.

I don't particularly LIKE it, and no one stays in it a second longer than they need to, but it has abilities that can be used by a much larger percentage of folks passing through on their way to the end destiny they want to be in than many of the other destinies.

[fool101]

MULTICLASSING

The greatest pain that I can see is the prerequisite "Points Spent In Tree."

The problem is, when you move over to a new tree, you have to spend the same minimums to climb up the tree. We only have 80 points to spend which forces one to either specialize in one tree or just take the basic minimums in two or three (keeping in mind you still need to meet feat prerequisites as well still).

I would suggest making the "Points Spent In Tree" prerequisite for each enhancement be global across trees so that you don't have to always start from the bottom. If you have the "Points Spent" minimum established in say Arcane Archer, you should be able to get a higher up enhancement from another tree so long as you have the feat and enchancement prerequisites (not the "Points Spent In Tree" for that specific tree). This is the mechanic that will restrict multiclassing in my opinion. One already is forced to take lower level enhancements they may not want in order to move up. Repeat that on the next tree and more wasted points. Then on the third tree and...you can see how it gets expensive real quick. And this is regardless of the build. This goes for really any multiclassed character.

I kinda like what you are suggesting here. Although I would suggest something slightly different. For racial abilities, I really like the idea of a global "AP spent" re-req vs a single tree "AP spent" pre-req. But for the classes, I would prefer that the AP requirement per tree stay as is since a heavy investment in a particular tree should grant better abilities.

Now, with the alpha version, there are a few areas where advancement within a tree should probably be reworked to better accommodate a more natural progression, but I'll keep those comments specific with a respective thread.