A few thoughts after reading...

[Taojeff]

My overall assessment has been good. I have not been able to post my feedback yet as I have been doing builds while i work. I plan to get to it this weekend. Please do not believe all the naysayers. Here are my brief general impressions from trying about 12 different builds out the first night (thats 12 lives or class combinations) x many enhancement builds each life.

1. There is no loss of freedom for multi-class, there is if anything more. You only need 1-8 levels of a class (usually toward the lower end, but max 8 with fighter so far) to take top tier abilities for a class. What is different with live is that there are more abilities that have higher tier requirement. On live you would get access to just about all the enhancements in the first couple levels but you do not go that deep into them. The new way is basically you can tier something all the way up before you get another ability. I like the new option, some things need to be out of reach and stay for those people that invest in that kind of character. I already have a feeling that much of this will be op for heroic and then quests will need readjustment. We definitely do not want to fall into the trap of making people good at everything. The same people who say that they will leave cause such and such is nerfed are generally the same people who steam roll content then leave from boredom. I think in general people are going to like the new system more as build progress.

What needs to be tweaked Some of the abilities should be shifted down a tier or 2 and some of them are just too expensive (good example is stalwart where to get most of the things I wanted i had to spend 80 points and was still missing out, where as most of the other trees 40 was more then enough).

2. Racial trees are bad or broken. I feel really pigeonholed with dwarf to wear heavy armor and use a shield. Sure the warhammer thing was cool, but I would open up more options. Why not add some kind of rune-smithing ability to add buffs for dwarves or something else. Dwarven frenzy is kind of a popular thing for some fighters in Faerun (battleragers). I mean there are more then one option. Dont be afraid to add a little of one racial prestige to another. At least you should try to target at least 3 classes that a particular race would very good at, and add things to that intent. There might even be a cool Faerun line and a Eberron line (pick one or the other) that add to the games flavor. To sum it up. Racial trees are weak and could use more options.

3. Clickies need work. Most of the cool downs for clickies are prohibit-ally to long, and become useless when compared to similar epic clickies. It would be nice to have a couple that I would actually keep in my bar in epic. Clicky space is already at a premium for some builds also due to the the abundance of good epic clickies (like mom swing etc). I would recommend cutting down the cool down, or better yet allow crits or other effects to reset the cooldown. It would be good if each tree had at least one ability that would reset the cool down. For example maybe stalwart on shield bash has a 33% change to reset cool down of all shield abilities.

4. On crit, or on attacked etc buffs are great. You should use those for defensive buffs as well. I absolutely loved kensai, the procing crit threat and enhancement bonus was cool. Something that benefits me but I dont have to worry about it all the time (by the way I also loved the finishing move attack...death something) so I can deal with my other clicky attacks. This would be a good move for dodge or prr, make it a proc (maybe stalwart on hit) of critical or something that goes off when you use another ability, but not a separate ability.

Here is a winning strategy. Pick a core number of good clickies that have multiple tiers (maybe 3 at most per line). Then add other enhancements that add effects to that. For example for Tempest, put an ability that does 1/2/3[W] at the bottom of the tree that hits with both weapons (with a small cool down, 6s). Then above it (connected by an arrow) give it buffs, maybe bleeding, maybe doublestrike etc. On the side maybe had some enhancements that give stacking type of damage to it (or another core ability like this). Finally at the top create finishers or death moves that take advantage of stacks or enemy debuffs. What this does is give me something interesting to use even at the lower level of the tree, but something I will not grow out of even in epic if i invest into it.

Well that is it for now, more when I get time this weekend.

[SableShadow]

26 bugs last night..BAH. My seven year old when he comes to work reports more than that in a day
Bring the wall.
I
Triple
Dog
Dare
You.

What have you done?!

It's all fun and games until someone gets their tongue stuck to the lamp post ...

[Drwaz99]

26 bugs last night..BAH. My seven year old when he comes to work reports more than that in a day
Bring the wall.

All due respect, in the past I have submitted so many that have just never been acknowledged, mentioned etc, etc...It honestly feels like time wasted for me.

Whats different this time around? For me to start reporting again, I need to see the difference. Not just be told that "it's in there somewhere".

[rest]

26 bugs last night..BAH. My seven year old when he comes to work reports more than that in a day
Bring the wall.
I
Triple
Dog
Dare
You.

Why? If the past is any indication of what the future holds, you'll pretend to listen and take feedback and say you want bug reports then just do whatever you **** well please anyway.

I also think releasing the trees in a staggered fashion like this is incredibly limiting. I can't grasp the whole picture. I WANT to be overwhelmed by information. I process it better that way.

Being forced into stupid pre-reqs for stuff you actually want is hogwash. Not being able to count points spent in other trees towards your total is hogwash. As it is on live right now, if I want X enhancement I have to spend Y points. Those Y points can be from any number of things, as long as I meet the feat requirements/level requirements/class requirements and total points spent. Not points spent only as a Kensai (who got royally cornholed, btw) or points spent only as an AA (who didn't get it as bad as Kensai, but is still awful) but maybe points spent on Human Recovery I and Toughness I.

I won't even go into what you've done to toughness. It's just.. ugh.

You know what I'd really like to see happen with this revamp? Bring back Breca. The Fatesinger ED is one of the most well designed EDs out there, since it has something for everyone. It really sucks to level up as a GMoF on my eSOS kensai wearing heavy red. Almost none of the abilities help me.

[Theolin]

A quick example of what I am trying to look at. Yes I know it is a strange build but I like it. 12 cleric / 6 arti / 2 monk
After several tries & attempts over about 2 hours of trying

everything below is naked number info - no gear

Old important stuff ... what I had room for in enchantments

Force: 60 crit: 3%
Light: 80 crit 6%
Pos: 80 crit 6%
+1 UMD
+40 Hps from enhancements
Rad II & Endless
10 % healing amp human

New ... what I am stuck with witch feels much more restrictive due to needing particular trees to get things: 1 art for endless 1 art for force enhancements & then 1 cleric for healing when I would rather of not had to do the 2nd Arti line .... ending with

Force: 44 edit(missed the feat change): crit 5% - magical training
Light: 82 edit(missed the feat change): crit 5% - magical training
Pos: 113 - edit(missed the feat change): crit 5% - magical training - maxing the healing line from skills
0 Hps from enhancements
0 UMD from enhancements
15 HPs form levels

over all that gives - edits .... missed some changes to feats

-20 force
+30 positive
-1% crit light
+2% crit force
- 25 HPs - edit: oops forgot about the 5/5lvls
-10 healing amp human (not enough point left)

Looking at why Arti or Wiz was splashed with cleric before which was give a boost to force (blade Barriers) and Feat(wiz) this has pretty much been taken away because at least with arti you need to spend points in a completely worthless tree for this build, which also gives you even less choice in building.

**Side note: -Edit: this is a bug
I had cleric scroll mastery & arti scroll mastery both at 75% which gives scroll*(master1 + Mastery2) or scroll*150% if anyone was curious on how they add

[hit_fido]

What have you done?!

You mean, in a high pitched shrieking voice,

"My Bug Trackers?! What have you done?!"

[Charononus]

What have you done?!

Admit it, they just go in the circular file anyways.

[Aedra1]

Take a few days, and remember when you build a character you are not filling out 20 levels all at the same time. Also, I find build planning potentially easier this way, and I think for some non-hardcore players this is visually easier to understand how to get to a planned goal. Far easier actually. I hate the old system.

I'm not a hardcore player and I find the trees confusing and not easier to understand at all how to get to the planned goal. I honestly think you have it backward, and that hardcore players will get the numbers and how to optimize the best way to build.

[Violith]

Hey y'all hope you are having fun. Just some thoughts after reading the threads here.

Most of the restrictions are in there so we can see which ones work...and which ones suck. The screws are intentionally tight, AP costs, prereqs, exc, and most likely will not be that way when we go live. The devs intentionally wanted to start at ' most painful' and throttle back instead of most open and then deal with the 'gar nerf' rage when we released. We really try to have a 'no nerf' policy at this point...except when trees are drunk or obvious exploits.

As for listening, that is what this is all about. This system is 4 days out of alpha by QA standards and is very very raw. We want...no...need player feedback as early as possible. The behind the scenes view from QA goes something like this: Thursday we update Lamania. Monday we collate last week's data and bugs write reports and make charts graphs with glossy photos and stuff. Thursday we update again, new classes and whatnot. rinse repeat. In a month or so after this schedule...the date has not been locked down...or even really talked about yet, we do this all again with the changes, and in my opinion at that point without class restrictions so the multiclassers can break it in all new interesting ways. There probably will be a third pass after that, but at that point stuff will be pretty locked down to how it will be on live. So here is YOUR chance to help us make this right.

I know that its easier to get focused feedback when there is less open, however currently since the majority of stuff isnt implemented (IE multiclassing and racial pre's) its hard to say what is or isnt going to be nerfed when compared to the current live builds as far as level splits and AP costs.

I can already say that my pure artificer will probably be nerfed slightly due to AP costs, most likely I wont be able to get more then 1 T5 ability, if any. and with the stablecharge3 for runearm being t5 thats a hit to what she can do on live, if anything that should be moved to t4 (with the removal of the movement penalty being above it in t5)

my spellsinging AA whom I TR'd on live would've had an even bigger problem with the racial prestige cost (14AP to unlock the AA tree, and level gates that go above 20 (5th core ability being lvl 22, and 6th being lvl 25) would've made it unplayable due to the gap in effectiveness compared to an ranger AA, a 5 level gap to be equal between a racial and a class prestige is too high, they're already spending nearly twice the amount of AP as what they used to just to unlock the thing. since bards arent ready to make yet I'll have to wait until multiclassing is available to actualy test out how she'd do in the new system, but from the looks of it she'd take a massive nerf until she was capped.

[rosedarkthorn]

With the new enhancements as of right now, my cleric AA trapper will get a massive downgrade. In order to get AA, I have to spend 15 of my 80 points in the Elf Racial Tree. In order to get everything I want in the AA tree, I have to spend 46 of my 80 points, leaving me with 19 points. On top of that, to get Ranger Sprint boost, I have to go into the Tempest tree to get it, which costs another 8 points, leaving me with 11 left. Also, by already needing the Elf tree to get AA, the AA tree to get prestige enhancements and the cleric tree to get cleric enhancements, on top of having to go into Tempest to get Sprint Boost, I can't go into the rogue tree to get trapper enhancements, not that I could afford to anyway, by this point. On top of that issue, I can't get Positive Energy Aura, which I heavily rely on, because I can't spend 40 points in more than one tree. This is a disaster for my main, favorite and first character I ever got to level 20.

[Silverhilt-2]

I will say I do personally like the UI itself - it looks a little unpolished at the moment, but otherwise is much more intuitive to me.

I disagree here. Sure, it looks all neat and dandy and tree-like when you stand there at the trainer, picking and choosing... But the actual Enhancement Tab on our character sheet, that looks ridiculous 8(

[Violith]

A quick example of what I am trying to look at. Yes I know it is a strange build but I like it. 12 cleric / 6 arti / 2 monk
After several tries & attempts over about 2 hours of trying

everything below is naked number info - no gear

Old important stuff ... what I had room for in enchantments

Force: 60 crit: 3%
Light: 80 crit 6%
Pos: 80 crit 6%
+1 UMD
+40 Hps from enhancements
Rad II & Endless
10 % healing amp human

New ... what I am stuck with witch feels much more restrictive due to needing particular trees to get things: 1 art for endless 1 art for force enhancements & then 1 cleric for healing when I would rather of not had to do the 2nd Arti line .... ending with

Force: 44 crit 0%
Light: 82 crit 0%
Pos: 113 - unsure of crit - maxing the healing line from skills
0 Hps from enhancements
0 UMD from enhancements

over all that gives

-20 force
+30 positive
-6% crit light
-3% crit force
- 40 HPs
-10 healing amp

Looking at why Arti or Wiz was splashed with cleric before which was give a boost to force (blade Barriers) and Feat(wiz) this has pretty much been taken away because at least with arti you need to spend points in a mostly worthless tree, which also gives you even less choice in building.

**Side note:
I had cleric scroll mastery & arti scroll mastery both at 75% which gives scroll*(master1 + Mastery2) or scroll*150% if anyone was curious on how they add

since multiclassing currently isnt implemented (well it is but the majority of the stuff isnt in yet for alot of the classes) its hard to say how your multiclassed character is effected yet, probably will have to wait for next month when all the classes are in before you can say for sure. that being said lets take a look

I didnt think w&s mastery stacked with different classes. if they did then it is probably a slight nerf (since you gotta take wand DC for the arti w&s mastery, not sure about the cleric one.

also, what feats do you have for the live build?
magical training now gives 5% crit (so arti's and/or clerics auto start with 5% to crit, and crits are now +100% instead of +50% (with enhancements to increase them),
spell point increasing feats (mental toughness/improved) raising it by 1% (so its possible to get like 8% crit with feats, +4% more as an arti in the arcanotech tree (<- prob would be a better choice for your build, not sure on your playstyle though, but the 1universalspellpower per pts from the tree is a nice bump to spellcasters) also, as a 2 monk (prob for evasion) you cant be centered with a runearm on live can you? so your probably not using one so battle engineer doesnt really offer much while the arcanotech tree would be alot more.

HP has been consolidated in the heroic durablity (and improved heroic durabilty) so you are only losing a portion of that 40hp (probably should gain around 20 with the changes, so only losing 20hp) not sure if thats correct but its somewhere around there.

since monks are available its hard to say how that effects you atm, what race is your character?

[Steelstar]

The 10% arcane spell failure reduction has been entirely removed from Battle engineer.

Reduction to Arcane Spell Failure appears in two of Battle Engineer's Core Abilities (both called "Infused Armor"). If you have both, it reduces your Arcane Spell Failure by 20%.

[HAL]

I thought that the fact that my Battle Cleric (19C/1F) can only take APs from 3 of the 4 lines initially available to him was a UI bug (since, on Live, if you meet the prerequisites for any enhancement, you can take it). From what I've been told, though, that's actually by design. So I can't bug report that.

Not trying to be sarcastic here, but how do we know what's a bug, and what's by design now? Fighter Haste Boost is no longer available to a level 1 Fighter in either Kensai or Stalwart fighter lines. Is that by design as well, or is that something that should be bug reported? I've been told that was actually something that was overlooked and will be "looked into" eventually.

If I report everything I've seen in the new system that I think is a bug, I'll be doing almost nothing else for the majority of the time I'm on Lammania. And so far, from what I've been told by people who have been following this from the start, most of what I think of as "bugs" actually appear to be working as intended.

I will say I do personally like the UI itself - it looks a little unpolished at the moment, but otherwise is much more intuitive to me.

He responded to your question: "Loss of Freedom - ...nothing is concrete at this point. Enter bugs with examples. Tons and tons of bugs. Make Gazebo cry."

Also, this is Alpha - of course it's unpolished

[Vargouille]

Is there still any chance to change some of the basics like racial stat enhancements? Right now it's quite a nerf with having to put the points in the racial tree to get them.

This is unintended for races. Core Racial abilities are not intended to require points spent in the tree.

Not trying to be sarcastic here, but how do we know what's a bug, and what's by design now? Fighter Haste Boost is no longer available to a level 1 Fighter in either Kensai or Stalwart fighter lines. Is that by design as well, or is that something that should be bug reported? I've been told that was actually something that was overlooked and will be "looked into" eventually.

We'd love for you to please report it all using the brand new bug reporting tool (linked in my signature).

There's not much point in our releasing a separate document saying what things "should" be, because that's just one more place where there could be mistakes, or information conflicting with in-game text and in-game functionality. As always, we're much more interested in what you guys think it should be than just telling you what it should be.

There have been some mistakes and some oversights. We absolutely planned for Fighter to still have Haste Boost. For various and sundry reasons it is not in the current build on Lamannia. It's absolutely a bug. Any similar issues that look "wrong" to any player should be bugged.

The second build I'm concerned about is my caster bard, it has just lost all of its healing spellpower and heal skill is a cross-class skill, meaning max 11 ranks (so with 15 item and 6 wis item about 30 spell power compared to 90 from before). Heal is also a wis based skill and bards really can't afford to buy another base stat (wis was the only stat they didn't need before).

Spell criticals are now tied to Magical training (a feat bards don't get for free as the other casters (including Artificer) and can't afford with their already very thigh feats).

Bards still get spellpower and have access to magical Training without spending a feat, but that's a discussion for later this week.

Bards are not yet ready for testing. We'll talk in two weeks.

Whats different this time around? For me to start reporting [bugs] again, I need to see the difference.

We replaced the entire bug reporting system, as a start.

[LafoMamone]

Why? If the past is any indication of what the future holds, you'll pretend to listen and take feedback and say you want bug reports then just do whatever you **** well please anyway.

I also think releasing the trees in a staggered fashion like this is incredibly limiting. I can't grasp the whole picture. I WANT to be overwhelmed by information. I process it better that way.

Being forced into stupid pre-reqs for stuff you actually want is hogwash. Not being able to count points spent in other trees towards your total is hogwash. As it is on live right now, if I want X enhancement I have to spend Y points. Those Y points can be from any number of things, as long as I meet the feat requirements/level requirements/class requirements and total points spent. Not points spent only as a Kensai (who got royally cornholed, btw) or points spent only as an AA (who didn't get it as bad as Kensai, but is still awful) but maybe points spent on Human Recovery I and Toughness I.

I won't even go into what you've done to toughness. It's just.. ugh.

You know what I'd really like to see happen with this revamp? Bring back Breca. The Fatesinger ED is one of the most well designed EDs out there, since it has something for everyone. It really sucks to level up as a GMoF on my eSOS kensai wearing heavy red. Almost none of the abilities help me.

I want to print, frame, and put this post on my living room table so I can admire its beauty all day. I love you.

Have a +1

[HAL]

My overall assessment has been good. I have not been able to post my feedback yet as I have been doing builds while i work. I plan to get to it this weekend. Please do not believe all the naysayers. Here are my brief general impressions from trying about 12 different builds out the first night (thats 12 lives or class combinations) x many enhancement builds each life.

1. There is no loss of freedom for multi-class, there is if anything more. You only need 1-8 levels of a class (usually toward the lower end, but max 8 with fighter so far) to take top tier abilities for a class. What is different with live is that there are more abilities that have higher tier requirement. On live you would get access to just about all the enhancements in the first couple levels but you do not go that deep into them. The new way is basically you can tier something all the way up before you get another ability. I like the new option, some things need to be out of reach and stay for those people that invest in that kind of character. I already have a feeling that much of this will be op for heroic and then quests will need readjustment. We definitely do not want to fall into the trap of making people good at everything. The same people who say that they will leave cause such and such is nerfed are generally the same people who steam roll content then leave from boredom. I think in general people are going to like the new system more as build progress.

What needs to be tweaked Some of the abilities should be shifted down a tier or 2 and some of them are just too expensive (good example is stalwart where to get most of the things I wanted i had to spend 80 points and was still missing out, where as most of the other trees 40 was more then enough).

2. Racial trees are bad or broken. I feel really pigeonholed with dwarf to wear heavy armor and use a shield. Sure the warhammer thing was cool, but I would open up more options. Why not add some kind of rune-smithing ability to add buffs for dwarves or something else. Dwarven frenzy is kind of a popular thing for some fighters in Faerun (battleragers). I mean there are more then one option. Dont be afraid to add a little of one racial prestige to another. At least you should try to target at least 3 classes that a particular race would very good at, and add things to that intent. There might even be a cool Faerun line and a Eberron line (pick one or the other) that add to the games flavor. To sum it up. Racial trees are weak and could use more options.

3. Clickies need work. Most of the cool downs for clickies are prohibit-ally to long, and become useless when compared to similar epic clickies. It would be nice to have a couple that I would actually keep in my bar in epic. Clicky space is already at a premium for some builds also due to the the abundance of good epic clickies (like mom swing etc). I would recommend cutting down the cool down, or better yet allow crits or other effects to reset the cooldown. It would be good if each tree had at least one ability that would reset the cool down. For example maybe stalwart on shield bash has a 33% change to reset cool down of all shield abilities.

4. On crit, or on attacked etc buffs are great. You should use those for defensive buffs as well. I absolutely loved kensai, the procing crit threat and enhancement bonus was cool. Something that benefits me but I dont have to worry about it all the time (by the way I also loved the finishing move attack...death something) so I can deal with my other clicky attacks. This would be a good move for dodge or prr, make it a proc (maybe stalwart on hit) of critical or something that goes off when you use another ability, but not a separate ability.

Here is a winning strategy. Pick a core number of good clickies that have multiple tiers (maybe 3 at most per line). Then add other enhancements that add effects to that. For example for Tempest, put an ability that does 1/2/3[W] at the bottom of the tree that hits with both weapons (with a small cool down, 6s). Then above it (connected by an arrow) give it buffs, maybe bleeding, maybe doublestrike etc. On the side maybe had some enhancements that give stacking type of damage to it (or another core ability like this). Finally at the top create finishers or death moves that take advantage of stacks or enemy debuffs. What this does is give me something interesting to use even at the lower level of the tree, but something I will not grow out of even in epic if i invest into it.

Well that is it for now, more when I get time this weekend.

Wow, this is a serious tester! Someone should hire you

[Theolin]

since multiclassing currently isnt implemented (well it is but the majority of the stuff isnt in yet for alot of the classes) its hard to say how your multiclassed character is effected yet, probably will have to wait for next month when all the classes are in before you can say for sure. that being said lets take a look

I didnt think w&s mastery stacked with different classes. if they did then it is probably a slight nerf (since you gotta take wand DC for the arti w&s mastery, not sure about the cleric one.

also, what feats do you have for the live build?
magical training now gives 5% crit (so arti's and/or clerics auto start with 5% to crit, and crits are now +100% instead of +50% (with enhancements to increase them),
spell point increasing feats (mental toughness/improved) raising it by 1% (so its possible to get like 8% crit with feats, +4% more as an arti in the arcanotech tree (<- prob would be a better choice for your build, not sure on your playstyle though, but the 1universalspellpower per pts from the tree is a nice bump to spellcasters) also, as a 2 monk (prob for evasion) you cant be centered with a runearm on live can you? so your probably not using one so battle engineer doesnt really offer much while the arcanotech tree would be alot more.

HP has been consolidated in the heroic durablity (and improved heroic durabilty) so you are only losing a portion of that 40hp (probably should gain around 20 with the changes, so only losing 20hp) not sure if thats correct but its somewhere around there.

since monks are available its hard to say how that effects you atm, what race is your character?

Thanks for the info on the feats missed that
& forgot the HPs at class level thing

Wand & scroll did not stack before .. they do now which is nice (a bugg see below) ... but as an aside - I had to spend points in that tree to get force power so I chose those - was just an FYI on the stacking - to me they were wasted points (as a bug it now is a waste) - and a wasted tree I would rather of chosen a different tree.

Monk was for evasion & feats which rune arm / xbow has no effect on & yes I do use battle engineer very much & a lot - it has endless for that DPS burst when you need it. And i use the rune arm a lot as well (you can use scrolls/spells and it does not interrupt them), also a lot of BBs ...

[Vargouille]

To stem the surely-coming notion that things are going to later change because someone said something:
Abilities with the same name shouldn't be stacking. Like some positive things, we haven't put all restrictions in at this time. Wand Mastery from 3 different trees isn't intended to stack, for instance.

[Scraap]

There are multiple types of bugs, and Qualitative are absolutely valid bugs. We have a team that does just that on all our games. So, feels restrictive because of a design decision is a bug.

a) What category do you want nonfunctional enhancements under? (Ended up picking skills for the one report yesterday)

b) What category do you want DEAR LOLTH WHAT HAVE YOU DONE design disagreements under?