Stalwart Defender Review

[Lighti]

This is based on my view from playing a pure 20 Dwarven Fighter that tanks all raids in the game.
Will only list abilities I think need changing to save space

Core Abilities

Toughness: +1 Hp each point spent in tree and 3% Fort for each Core Ability.
Your most likely going to gain around 40 Hp from this. It would be better being +2 or even +3 Hp per point seeing the amount of damage EE mobs now do and the Hp needed to tank things like EE FoT. 3% Fortification is reasonable netting you 18% (when it is fixed).

Overbalance: 2 AP. Shields gain knockdown on Vorpal.
Has no save from what i see and no timer so mobs stand up straight away. Make it no save knockdown then balance check based on your trip DC to stand up again.

Stalwart Defense: 2 AP. Perma Stance granting 10 PRR & 50% threat. -10% movement speed & immunity to rage. (Requires equipped Shield and Melee Weapon)
Basic Stalwart stance fair enough. Is removed when a throwing weapon or scrol/wand is equipped. This needs changing since range is a crucial part in tanking Raids such as LoB and FoT aswell as stopping UMD toons.

Standfast: 2 AP. 30 Second Action Boost: granting +20 save vs fear and knockdown, removes those effects if used whilst feared or knockeddown.
Will rarely be used especially seeing as it locks you out of other action boosts with the timer. At least make it a seprate cooldown.

Last Stand: 2 AP. 30 Second Action Boost: +100% maximum hp, 50 PRR, on attacked healed for 1d10 positive (effected by H-Amp). 3 min cooldown
Seeing as this is a capstone. Having another Action Boost feels rather lackluster. I would rather it be a permanent 20% HP, 20 PRR and 1d2 positive heal.



Stalwart Defense Line

Improved Stalwart Defense: 3 Sub catagories that improve your Stalwart Defense Stance. 2 AP each tier.
Durable Defense: +[5/10/15] Competence to PRR.
Inciting Defense: +[25/50/75]% Competence melee threat gen.
Resilient Defense: +[1/2/3] Competence to all saves.
Costing 2 AP for each tier is too expensive. Especially seeing as this line has 6 stages to it and to have 3 tiers in later stages requires 3 tiers in all stages before it.

Greater Stalwart Defense: 3 Sub catagories that improve your Stalwart Defense Stance. 2 AP each tier.
Hardy Defense: +[2/4/6] Competence to Con
Strong Defense: + [2/4/6] Competence to Str
Tenacious Defense +[10/15/20]% maximum Hp
Again Costing 2 AP each tier is too expensve. Especially seeing as 3 stages to this line following on from Improved Stalwart Defense. And diminishing returns on Tenacious defense only gaining 5% hp after the 1st tier for the same amount of AP sucks.



Other

Threatening Countenance: 1 AP. [1/2/3]Haggle, [1/2/3] Intimidate & [5/10/15]% melee threat.
Make it [2/4/6] so as we can gain a resonable boost to intimidate at least and could even do with [10/20/30] for those that want to tank without using a shield.



Instinctive Defense: 1 AP. Take [5/10/15]% less additional damage whilst helpless.
At least make it [10/20/30] and people might consider it. At the moment its a waste of AP.



Counter Attack: 2 AP. 30 Second Action Boost. If you are attacked whilst blocking your next attack within 3 seconds gains +[1/2/3][W].
This ability really sucks as an action boost. Blocking is used as a response to something. People won't hit a boost then think ooo lets block so as to do more damage. It should be a permanent ability that costs 1 AP per tier otherwise it will never be used.



Block and Cut: 1 AP. Melee Attack dealing +[1/2/3][W] and on damage [10/15/25]% Double strike for 10 seconds. 20 second Cooldown.
Personally i would prefer to just have a permanent [5/10/15]% Double strike whilst using a shield.



Shield Expertise: 2 AP. Your Shield gains +[1/2/3] Enhancement Bonus.
2 AP for 1 AC is rather expensive. Base abilities in the tree grant +1 AC and +1 MDB for 2 AP. With the amount of pre reqs required it would be better as [2/4/6] AC for 1 AP.

Armour Expertise: 2 AP. Your Armour gains +[1/2/3] Enhancement Bonus.
Same problems as Shield Expertise.



Whats missing

With a few of the abilities being Action Boost based there are no Enhancemens for extra boosts. Although if changes are made and some of the boost abilities made permanent as i suggested this wont really be a problem.

There is nothing to improve Combat Expertise. Seeing as this feat is not widely used. A Enhancement granting [5/10/15]% extra AC for 1 AP would be welcome. This would bring CE up to 25%.

[Lehmu]

Aww. Stalwart defense requires a weapon and a shield.

No more emerald monks in stalwart defender, then.

[voodoogroves]

If this eliminates anyone being a stalwart who isn't using a shield, that's super lame.

Super lame.

[Jitty]

Aww. Stalwart defense requires a weapon and a shield.

No more emerald monks in stalwart defender, then.

No more scroll buffs, wand use, scroll healing or using two handed weapons briefly when you aren't tanking, throwing weapons. This really should change especially because the stance isn't useable a number of times per rest anymore, but has a minute long cool down on it. It basicly makes you entirely reliant on other people to do anything that doesn't involve a sword and shield.

[Ape_Man]

Aww. Stalwart defense requires a weapon and a shield.

No more emerald monks in stalwart defender, then.

This is absolutely terrible and reaks of Neverwinter. This absolutely needs to change.

[JOTMON]

Looks like the proposed Stalwart invalidates any non-shield build now. more pidgeon holing.

also...too many short term clickies for a tank.
Tanks are needed for the fights that take more than 30 seconds...Holding aggro in long duration fights
So a key mashing bunch of 30 second clickies are not of much use.

[Taojeff]

This is based on my view from playing a pure 20 Dwarven Fighter that tanks all raids in the game.
Will only list abilities I think need changing to save space

Core Abilities

Toughness: +1 Hp each point spent in tree and 3% Fort for each Core Ability.
Your most likely going to gain around 40 Hp from this. It would be better being +2 or even +3 Hp per point seeing the amount of damage EE mobs now do and the Hp needed to tank things like EE FoT. 3% Fortification is reasonable netting you 18% (when it is fixed).

I agree, no one is going to be hit more then a tank, they should be able to build to take it. With diminishing returns on prr and ac, this is important.

Overbalance: 2 AP. Shields gain knockdown on Vorpal.
Has no save from what i see and no timer so mobs stand up straight away. Make it no save knockdown then balance check based on your trip DC to stand up again.

Stalwart Defense: 2 AP. Perma Stance granting 10 PRR & 50% threat. -10% movement speed & immunity to rage. (Requires equipped Shield and Melee Weapon)
Basic Stalwart stance fair enough. Is removed when a throwing weapon or scrol/wand is equipped. This needs changing since range is a crucial part in tanking Raids such as LoB and FoT aswell as stopping UMD toons.

Standfast: 2 AP. 30 Second Action Boost: granting +20 save vs fear and knockdown, removes those effects if used whilst feared or knockeddown.
Will rarely be used especially seeing as it locks you out of other action boosts with the timer. At least make it a seprate cooldown.

Last Stand: 2 AP. 30 Second Action Boost: +100% maximum hp, 50 PRR, on attacked healed for 1d10 positive (effected by H-Amp). 3 min cooldown
Seeing as this is a capstone. Having another Action Boost feels rather lackluster. I would rather it be a permanent 20% HP, 20 PRR and 1d2 positive heal.



Stalwart Defense Line

Improved Stalwart Defense: 3 Sub catagories that improve your Stalwart Defense Stance. 2 AP each tier.
Durable Defense: +[5/10/15] Competence to PRR.
Inciting Defense: +[25/50/75]% Competence melee threat gen.
Resilient Defense: +[1/2/3] Competence to all saves.
Costing 2 AP for each tier is too expensive. Especially seeing as this line has 6 stages to it and to have 3 tiers in later stages requires 3 tiers in all stages before it.

Totally agree here. All of these need to be 1 AP per point invested. It seems silly to me that I need to spend 80 points in stalwart to build my tank and only 40-50 in other builds main tree (kensai, tempest etc) for those builds.


Greater Stalwart Defense: 3 Sub catagories that improve your Stalwart Defense Stance. 2 AP each tier.
Hardy Defense: +[2/4/6] Competence to Con
Strong Defense: + [2/4/6] Competence to Str
Tenacious Defense +[10/15/20]% maximum Hp
Again Costing 2 AP each tier is too expensve. Especially seeing as 3 stages to this line following on from Improved Stalwart Defense. And diminishing returns on Tenacious defense only gaining 5% hp after the 1st tier for the same amount of AP sucks.

Same as above. 1ap

Other

Threatening Countenance: 1 AP. [1/2/3]Haggle, [1/2/3] Intimidate & [5/10/15]% melee threat.
Make it [2/4/6] so as we can gain a resonable boost to intimidate at least and could even do with [10/20/30] for those that want to tank without using a shield.



Instinctive Defense: 1 AP. Take [5/10/15]% less additional damage whilst helpless.
At least make it [10/20/30] and people might consider it. At the moment its a waste of AP.



Counter Attack: 2 AP. 30 Second Action Boost. If you are attacked whilst blocking your next attack within 3 seconds gains +[1/2/3][W].
This ability really sucks as an action boost. Blocking is used as a response to something. People won't hit a boost then think ooo lets block so as to do more damage. It should be a permanent ability that costs 1 AP per tier otherwise it will never be used.

Yeah clickies for defense is generally not a good idea, especially with the lag we get in game. I know you do not want to build around lag, but its a definite factor and people build around it. Having to use a clickie for a defensive ability that may or may not go off because of lag is not a good idea.

Block and Cut: 1 AP. Melee Attack dealing +[1/2/3][W] and on damage [10/15/25]% Double strike for 10 seconds. 20 second Cooldown.
Personally i would prefer to just have a permanent [5/10/15]% Double strike whilst using a shield.

I do not mind the clickie as it does ok damage, but the cooldown should be halved.

Shield Expertise: 2 AP. Your Shield gains +[1/2/3] Enhancement Bonus.
2 AP for 1 AC is rather expensive. Base abilities in the tree grant +1 AC and +1 MDB for 2 AP. With the amount of pre reqs required it would be better as [2/4/6] AC for 1 AP.

Armour Expertise: 2 AP. Your Armour gains +[1/2/3] Enhancement Bonus.
Same problems as Shield Expertise.



Whats missing

With a few of the abilities being Action Boost based there are no Enhancemens for extra boosts. Although if changes are made and some of the boost abilities made permanent as i suggested this wont really be a problem.

There is nothing to improve Combat Expertise. Seeing as this feat is not widely used. A Enhancement granting [5/10/15]% extra AC for 1 AP would be welcome. This would bring CE up to 25%.

I think this class would be perfect for a shield charge. The shield line could also use a shield stun ability. There are a couple good ones from PnP to get ideas from. Maybe just a 1/3/5% chance to stun on shield bash.

my comments under your comments in green (btw thanks for doing all the work I was going to review this in similar fashion but easier to just comment on your comments).

Overall the main problem with this tree is the AP cost. Other then than that just some tweaking

[Taojeff]

Aww. Stalwart defense requires a weapon and a shield.

No more emerald monks in stalwart defender, then.

Though it has not be reviewed, if you wanna tank as a monk, shintao is for you. I got to see it due to a glitch and it was very impressive for tanking. Having monks be able to get both lines would be very op. So I agree with the shield move.

[Feithlin]

I agree with Lighti comments (even if I don't add anything). I'll only add a few more.

Core Abilities

Toughness: +1 Hp each point spent in tree and 3% Fort for each Core Ability.
Your most likely going to gain around 40 Hp from this. It would be better being +2 or even +3 Hp per point seeing the amount of damage EE mobs now do and the Hp needed to tank things like EE FoT. 3% Fortification is reasonable netting you 18% (when it is fixed).

Maybe things could be twinked a bit to give the biggest HP bonus in the higher levels. Maybe something like: Every point spent in the SD tree gives a HP bonus equal to the tier of the ability.
Example: when you spend a point in a tier 4 ability, you gain 4 HP; when you spend a point in a tier 1 ability, you gain 1 HP.

Last Stand: 2 AP. 30 Second Action Boost: +100% maximum hp, 50 PRR, on attacked healed for 1d10 positive (effected by H-Amp). 3 min cooldown
Seeing as this is a capstone. Having another Action Boost feels rather lackluster. I would rather it be a permanent 20% HP, 20 PRR and 1d2 positive heal.

Totally agreed; having 2 action boosts for the last 2 tiers is pretty lame. However, a "oh s**t" button can be nice (either at tier 4 or at tier 5).
The main problem is I can't see the actual benefit of Last Stand. What happens if you took a bit hit and are down to next to nothing: do you gain twice this next to nothing, or are you back to full HP + next to nothing? In the first case, that means the action boost would only be useful if you know something is coming, which is quite limiting and hardly fits the 3 min cooldown linked to the boost.

Stalwart Defense Line

Improved Stalwart Defense: 3 Sub catagories that improve your Stalwart Defense Stance. 2 AP each tier.
Durable Defense: +[5/10/15] Competence to PRR.
Inciting Defense: +[25/50/75]% Competence melee threat gen.
Resilient Defense: +[1/2/3] Competence to all saves.
Costing 2 AP for each tier is too expensive. Especially seeing as this line has 6 stages to it and to have 3 tiers in later stages requires 3 tiers in all stages before it.

I totally agree again. 1 AP for each tier seems way enough and would give more AP to strengthen offense (in the kensei tree for example), which is usually what really lack tank characters to make them attractive outside of raids and/or solo runs.

Other

Shield Expertise: 2 AP. Your Shield gains +[1/2/3] Enhancement Bonus.
2 AP for 1 AC is rather expensive. Base abilities in the tree grant +1 AC and +1 MDB for 2 AP. With the amount of pre reqs required it would be better as [2/4/6] AC for 1 AP.

Armour Expertise: 2 AP. Your Armour gains +[1/2/3] Enhancement Bonus.
Same problems as Shield Expertise.

These two may be changed into a percentage bonus to shield and armor AC: +10%/+20%/+30%.

Whats missing

With a few of the abilities being Action Boost based there are no Enhancemens for extra boosts. Although if changes are made and some of the boost abilities made permanent as i suggested this wont really be a problem.

There is nothing to improve Combat Expertise. Seeing as this feat is not widely used. A Enhancement granting [5/10/15]% extra AC for 1 AP would be welcome. This would bring CE up to 25%.

There could be various abilities, granting different bonuses to this stance:

Tier 3: Stand against Iron (= Lighti's proposal)
Requires: Combat Expertise
Your Combat Expertise grants an additional 5% to AC for each tier, for a total of 15%/20%/25%.

Tier 5: Stand against Weird
Requires: Combat Expertise
Your Combat Expertise grants an additional +1 to saves for each tier, for a total of +1/+2/+3 to saves.

[giggiddy]

Awesome change on the shield!! I can't wait to be sitting at 50 HP on my S&B tank and swap to a scroll + epic flameward to hjeal myself BAM dropped stalwart stance and dead. Well thought out Turbine.

[Ape_Man]

Awesome change on the shield!! I can't wait to be sitting at 50 HP on my S&B tank and swap to a scroll + epic flameward to hjeal myself BAM dropped stalwart stance and dead. Well thought out Turbine.

Stop making sense, the fanbois will start to choke to death on their own BS.

[Darkrok]

The shield requirement on Stalwart is definitely terrible. I thought we'd gotten out of the 'this PrE and that PrE shouldn't be able to work together' stage years ago. As someone who greatly enjoys Stalwart + Monk in many configurations I'd be very sad to see this go live.

[giggiddy]

Oh you are dead and want a rez? Sorry that's what FVS and Clerics are for. I can't raise you or I lose an action boost and might end up joining your soul stone, eat a rez cake *****. That will be 50 TP.

[smatt]

No more scroll buffs, wand use, scroll healing or using two handed weapons briefly when you aren't tanking, throwing weapons. This really should change especially because the stance isn't useable a number of times per rest anymore, but has a minute long cool down on it. It basicly makes you entirely reliant on other people to do anything that doesn't involve a sword and shield.

A 1 minute cooldown you say? Really....

So much for Stalwart being useful if this sticks...

Next...

[Taojeff]

A 1 minute cooldown you say? Really....

So much for Stalwart being useful if this sticks...

Next...

I did not see a number of uses per day on lama for stalwart. Let me go check the cool down..(runs over to lama land)....yep. Too long. If you are going to have people drop out of it to use scrolls then you better make it go back in. I think really it should not be a stance you click but something you auto go into when wielding a shield and a weapon.


Btw, it no longer has a number of charges a day....that is all for shield ability action boosts now. Stalwart u can do as many times as you want.

[Simonhook]

A shield should be a prerequisite to Stalwart Defender. Common sense would tell me, if you want to be defensive build, a shield and one-handed melee weapon provide much more defense over 2HF and 2WF. And having one-handed melee weapons as a prerequisite, is something I can agree with, to a degree. One-handed melee weapons can be used to defend yourself along with a shield providing the best defensive bonus. Now with throwing weapons with a shield, they could be used to defend yourself as well but not as good, with the exception of shuriken, which can provided no defensive bonus. And now, how can a twig called a wand, or a piece of paper called a scroll, provide any kind of defense? It can't. So I have to agree with that if you use a wand or scroll you loose your defensive bonus from Stalwart Defender stance. Now if you want to use scrolls and wands, they should make Stalwart Defender Stance a passive ability that is applied when you go S&B, and getting rid of the one minute cooldown timer.

[Simonhook]

I agree with Lighti, your suggestions are bang on to what i think. The cost of action points Stalwart, is to high. Going from the live system which cost 30 action points give or take a few points depending on your build, to 70 action points give or take a few points depending on your build, to get the benefits we had before. Could easily cut the 2 action points to 1 action point and would still be able to create a decent DPS Stalwart build allowing us to have some creativity in the build.

Also how come we don't have the ability to get fighter strength 3 in the Stalwart line?

[Wipey]

Oh you are dead and want a rez? Sorry that's what FVS and Clerics are for. I can't raise you or I lose an action boost and might end up joining your soul stone, eat a rez cake *****. That will be 50 TP.

I have good news for you. It's the only thing clerics will be able to do, so rejoice !
Everybody knows you can't heal on fighter and shouldn't be using sorcerer item anyway.

Epic Flameward is the exact reason I don't have to have SF UMD on mine...

[eonfreon]

Say, it looks like you don't get Stalwart Defense Stance until level 6 just like Live, right? Yet, all the improved Stalwart Defense stuff is in tiers 1 to 5, when a Fighter is at level 1-5.

The problem is that points spent in the Defender Tree count as "Toughness enhancements". Normally by then I like to get 2 Fighter Toughness Feats which equals 20 hp. On Live Toughness 1 and 2 = 3 AP (1+2). But I'd have to spend 20 AP worth of stuff in the Alpha Tree instead. That's all the points I would have at the end of level 5, from what I figure.

How easy is it to spend 20 pts in the Defender Tree while you're leveling up and don't even have access to the Stance? For things that are actually useful, I mean? I'm looking at it and it's a little confusing. All the values don't seem to be in and some things don't seem to fit. It just seems like most of the Defender stuff is tied into the Level 6 ability, while Kensai seems to be granted at level 1 and built up from there. Am I reading it right?

I mean, is there some purpose for getting Improved Stalwart Stuff that adds to a Stance you don't have yet? I know there is other stuff in there, but it seems hard to spend many points in it until the Stance becomes available.

I realize that for all intents and purposes, all Fighters are Kensai AND Defenders now, just up to everyone how much of a Kensai/Defender they are. But it just strikes me as odd that the Kensai line has it's "Weapon Specialization" from level 1 onwards, while the Defender line can't access the Stance stuff until level 6.

Just odd to me. Wondering if I'm reading it right.

[Dandonk]

I thought one of the great things about DDO was the ability to make a character that uses the build options in new and different ways. Please don't start forcing people into using the "right" way to build and play.

Flexibility is good, open design is good. Changing stalwart to requiring shield = not good.