Introductory Detailed Review of Kensei

[Thrudh]

We dont need another sacrifice even more from your strength and con build points to put in wisdom to make saves.

That's a core part of D&D though, and it was very true of DDO in the early days...

Used to be being held was a death sentence (now the effect lasts like 3 seconds, so who cares), and I DID pump up Wisdom on my fighter and even make a +5 will save Greensteel item (Back when resistance items only went to +4), because will saves were important...

Trade-offs are good for the game...

[Jaid314]

to be fair, the fort-reduction ability is probably intended for use on bosses, and you can prep them with improved sunder. it probably still needs some boosts (simply counting as sunder in terms of what boosts it, but still stacking with sunder, should do it... and may already be in place, for all i know), but it might just be a matter of needing a few debuffs to start things off before you manage to get the effect to stick.

now, that rather significantly reduces it's general utility if you have to debuff it heavily first, but i don't think too many people picked up the improved sunder feat so they could sunder ordinary enemies either, so it has it's place...

that place just simply happens to be the same place as any other ability you only use for bosses.

[Cetus]

to be fair, the fort-reduction ability is probably intended for use on bosses, and you can prep them with improved sunder. it probably still needs some boosts (simply counting as sunder in terms of what boosts it, but still stacking with sunder, should do it... and may already be in place, for all i know), but it might just be a matter of needing a few debuffs to start things off before you manage to get the effect to stick.

now, that rather significantly reduces it's general utility if you have to debuff it heavily first, but i don't think too many people picked up the improved sunder feat so they could sunder ordinary enemies either, so it has it's place...

that place just simply happens to be the same place as any other ability you only use for bosses.

The opportunity cost of using it starts to make me wonder if the juice is worth the squeeze...

Completing blowing up my other stats in order to maybe hit a 40 wisdom, rework my gear, and then still have to invest a feat into improved sunder in order to debuff the mob just so I can maybe land an ability that reduces some fort for 10 seconds? I probably won't bother.

[SealedInSong]

While in general I agree with your statements, I have a feeling we may be seeing additional changes to how to hit/AC works in the near future, which may increase the value of, currently, useless feats.

These changes should come before they are required, not after.

[SealedInSong]

You're looking at it from the metagame and the "I want the good stuff NOW" mentality. In-game and in reality, a swordmaster must train for YEARS to get to be a legend, and that's what a Kensei is, even if only in his region of the land. Tales are told of these men for generations, of the dedication and effort they put into mastering their craft, and here you are metagaming it all saying "let's skip the boring stuff and get to the good parts!". Yeah, it sucks to have to take feats that only give +1 to hit but it also sucks to have to bring Master water from the well or wash Mr. Miyagi's car or whatever. It's what it takes to become a legend.

We should be given choices on how we create our characters, not preset paths. If we wanted have all our characters look the same, we'd all just choose these upcoming Iconic Heroes.

I get your logic, but on the other hand, you could say that there's a player out there that doesn't want the same things the OP wants at all, and that player would still have to wade through a bunch of enhancements they don't want to get to a different place.

This is about choices, not about "skipping boring stuff." Different things are boring to different people, so herding everyone along the same path the issue here, not specific things being boring to everyone.

[SealedInSong]

We could always go back to when saves had nothing to do with stats, would that suit you better? Wisdom is a core component of the saving throw system in this game. You dump it at your own peril. If your fighter has an 8 or 6 wisdom, he's going to do a lot of bone-headed things. Sure, he may have some points in Int for skill points, but he's still gonna end up with gonorrhea because he has the common sense of a doughnut.

This is very confusing to me. No one said they'd dump their will save.

We're saying that even on EN, a secondary (not even dump) stat is not going to cut it as a tactical mod.

Epic NORMAL--which is mostly so easy that most people can do it with a blindfold. Things are going to save like crazy. It'd be like taking a heroic Sirocco into an epic quest and expecting all the mobs to be blinded.

I don't want to take this into the ad hominem realm, but you are saying that this perspective is too "metagame" but you're the one talking about Mr. Miyagi and sexually-transmitted infections. There's no need for analogies here.

The wisdom-only modifier is simply a bad mechanic. The pigeonholing of AP expenditure on useless enhancements to purchase universally-desired abilities is a bad mechanic.

It shows a lack of understanding of the game, not a lack of understanding to kensei lore or Wisdom-scores-in-real-life (both of which are largely irrelevant to the argument).

[SealedInSong]

I like flavor as much as (well, more, actually) the next person.

However, discussing game mechanics is about discussing game mechanics; raising a leg to take a wiz on that discussion, when it's actually the topic, doesn't make a whole lotta sense.

I always champion flavor in this game. But Sable said this better than I could.

[Qhualor]

That's a core part of D&D though, and it was very true of DDO in the early days...

Used to be being held was a death sentence (now the effect lasts like 3 seconds, so who cares), and I DID pump up Wisdom on my fighter and even make a +5 will save Greensteel item (Back when resistance items only went to +4), because will saves were important...

Trade-offs are good for the game...

I was talking about what the OP said, not the every day will saves we encounter currently.

I always separate the forums from the game because the forums tend to be extreme cases, but here people are always talking about you dont need to max str for that extra +1 damage and fighters should be putting points into cha anyways for intimidate so they shouldnt be sacrificing anything really to be able to scroll heal. My pure Kensai is already investing points into str, con, cha and some dex. Now i would need to also invest in wis, and it seems like a lot off the top of my head to make it useful, so i can make decent saves according to what OP says? So now i need to reduce stats i need to make saves useful.

As much as i would like more pnp D&D, i play DDO.

[Bal-Sagoth]

we had action points wasted before, same as we do now

my problem is that im missing a +1 to strength and 3 action boosts, why?

[Kilbar]

This is very confusing to me. No one said they'd dump their will save.

We're saying that even on EN, a secondary (not even dump) stat is not going to cut it as a tactical mod.

Epic NORMAL--which is mostly so easy that most people can do it with a blindfold. Things are going to save like crazy. It'd be like taking a heroic Sirocco into an epic quest and expecting all the mobs to be blinded.

I don't want to take this into the ad hominem realm, but you are saying that this perspective is too "metagame" but you're the one talking about Mr. Miyagi and sexually-transmitted infections. There's no need for analogies here.

The wisdom-only modifier is simply a bad mechanic. The pigeonholing of AP expenditure on useless enhancements to purchase universally-desired abilities is a bad mechanic.

It shows a lack of understanding of the game, not a lack of understanding to kensei lore or Wisdom-scores-in-real-life (both of which are largely irrelevant to the argument).

You have a different viewpoint than I do and I respect that. I do not see your comment as an ad hominem, I deserved it. I tend to get overly descriptive when I could stand to be more concise.

[Cetus]

You have a different viewpoint than I do and I respect that. I do not see your comment as an ad hominem, I deserved it. I tend to get overly descriptive when I could stand to be more concise.

I'm having trouble understanding your viewpoint. What is it exactly?

Do you sincerely believe that forcing every kensei to work through attack boost and critical accuracy on their way to stronger abilities is good design?

[Kilbar]

I'm having trouble understanding your viewpoint. What is it exactly?

Do you sincerely believe that forcing every kensei to work through attack boost and critical accuracy on their way to stronger abilities is good design?

Yes, I do. It's forcing the Kensei to learn the ropes of his craft before claiming the title of Master. Those abilities aren't COMPLETELY useless, just MOSTLY useless, and are fully representative of the intermediary steps taken along the road to greatness.

You may find that to be poor game design, and if this were DC Universe or Champions where it's assumed you start out as a minor master, I'd agree. But DDO assumes you start out as the survivor of an airship wreck who has to beg his first weapon off a shifty-looking Halfling.

[DarkForte]

Yes, I do. It's forcing the Kensei to learn the ropes of his craft before claiming the title of Master. Those abilities aren't COMPLETELY useless, just MOSTLY useless, and are fully representative of the intermediary steps taken along the road to greatness.

You may find that to be poor game design, and if this were DC Universe or Champions where it's assumed you start out as a minor master, I'd agree. But DDO assumes you start out as the survivor of an airship wreck who has to beg his first weapon off a shifty-looking Halfling.

A level 1 PC fighter on 28 builds is already a lot stronger than your average commoner. Your point is completely notwithstanding to this discussion, and just serves to derail an useful discussion with useless points on your conception of flavor which no one else cares about.

And yes, those abilities are COMPLETELY useless. My kensei confirms criticals on everything on a 2 (any shoddily-built kensei will have over 20 seeker to start with), and I have zero trouble hitting EE mobs even with PA on. I have NEVER used fighter attack boost, nor have I ever needed to. Have you ever even played a kensei?

[Kilbar]

A level 1 PC fighter on 28 builds is already a lot stronger than your average commoner. Your point is completely notwithstanding to this discussion, and just serves to derail an useful discussion with useless points on your conception of flavor which no one else cares about.

And yes, those abilities are COMPLETELY useless. My kensei confirms criticals on everything on a 2 (any shoddily-built kensei will have over 20 seeker to start with), and I have zero trouble hitting EE mobs even with PA on. I have NEVER used fighter attack boost, nor have I ever needed to. Have you ever even played a kensei?

For about a year, actually, back before Update 14 when I got into Stalwart Defender.

[Cetus]

Those abilities aren't COMPLETELY useless, just MOSTLY useless, and are fully representative of the intermediary steps taken along the road to greatness.

They're not completely useless? Where's the tad of usefulness you think it has? show me please.

Its not even incremental gain. You can absolutely, LITERALLY, replace these abilities instead with a new companion and a collar for that companion, and your character will perform exactly the same way.

And the latter part of your statement says that they "...are fully representative of the intermediary steps taken..."

Are you kidding? +3 to confirm crits and an attack boost is FULLY representative?

Well, who cares about better control of an opponent by virtue of stuns and trips. Those have no place in representing a kensei's development.

Nor do extra action boosts for a developing master swordsman that already has the ability to haste boost for a short burst of extra damage. No reason why a developing kensei would, maybe, learn how to do that a few extra times.

And lets completely forget about the additional seeker damage we aren't developing as we go from being a shoddy swordsman to a master swordsman.

By definition, a ***better*** swordsman should do ***better*** stuff. Confirm critical and attack boost make a ***better*** swordsman do nothing ***better***. But hey, they're fully representational of his or her journey to excellence anyway...

There's your lore. Give a samurai warrior and a peasant a sword, whose the more skillful swordsman? Obviously the samurai. But, how can you prove it?

Look at his sustained speed and strength (action boost count) throughout the course of a fight, look at how hard he can strike a target (DPS), look at where he strikes a target effectively (Critical damage), and look at how he controls his target to expose vulnerable areas (tactics). These are all improvements that a developing warrior has to experience.

Critical accuracy and attack boost do nothing for this warrior when he or she already lands every one of his or her hits. You can't land more than every hit. That's where we are already at, 100% barring rolling a 1.

[DarkForte]

critical accuracy and attack boost do nothing for this warrior when he or she already lands every one of his or her hits. You can't land more than every hit. That's where we are already at, 100%.

95%

Everything else you said is true though

[Cetus]

95%

Everything else you said is true though

Ha! I just edited that before I read your reply

[SealedInSong]

You have a different viewpoint than I do and I respect that. I do not see your comment as an ad hominem, I deserved it. I tend to get overly descriptive when I could stand to be more concise.

Wow, civil forum interactions. <3

[dTarkanan]

Almost every melee class and many casters have to pick up some worthless enhancements to unlock prestiges. In the case of my kensai, with tons of feats available, I don't have a problem with some of them being feats and saving my AP for other goodies. Sure, it'd be great if I could have my cake and eat it too and fit in a bunch of extra toughnesses or lightning reflexes or whatever, but even with the requirements fighters have far more feat flexibility than any other class I've played (except maybe wizards/artificers who also have tons of bonus feats).

[Cetus]

Almost every melee class and many casters have to pick up some worthless enhancements to unlock prestiges. In the case of my kensai, with tons of feats available, I don't have a problem with some of them being feats and saving my AP for other goodies. Sure, it'd be great if I could have my cake and eat it too and fit in a bunch of extra toughnesses or lightning reflexes or whatever, but even with the requirements fighters have far more feat flexibility than any other class I've played (except maybe wizards/artificers who also have tons of bonus feats).

I agree with you that fighters still have many feats - but that isn't the point. The point is that the original design of the classes feat distribution is being hacked down by 2 feats simply by virtue of requiring universally insignificant abilities.

Being ok with it and realizing that its really bad design are different sentiments entirely.

And actually, some classes have it better - barbs for instance are required to take cleave and damage boost line for instance, those are awesome requirements - stuff I'd pick up anyway. It synergizes well with the PrE and doesn't hack away at precious feats or AP's nearly as much as kensei's. Walk over to kensei, and you need friggin +3 to critical confirmation and an attack boost while the to hit system is so largely in our favor that we're landing everything on a 2 anyway.

If they are going to make us take attack boost, then that should let us not miss on a 1 or something while boosted. Now its fine - although visually still unattractive comapred to the bigger numbers of damage boost or the fast attack speed of haste boost.