Stalwart and excessively lengthy chains.

[esheep]

Specifically the "Improved Stalwart Defense" and "Greater Stalwart Defense" (which the former turns into) are too lengthy.

A chain of 6 items seems a little excessive... mostly because those first three in "Improved Stalwart Defense" (ISD) are required if you want anything from "Greater Stalwart Defense" (GSD) ... to make matters worse, if you want anything in GSD tier 3'd you'll need to tier 3 all of the abilities in ISD which really really eats up a lot of AP...

My suggestion? Glad you asked. Not going to be easy to implement with so much going on in this tree, but: Change the progression of ISD so that after 2 ISD abilities you can progress to GSD if you like, or continue on to the 3rd ISD ability or both...

Similarly there is a lengthy chain for Reinforced Defense and Armor/Shield Expertise, it makes sense that they are linked, but makes it difficult to pick and choose what you'd like, I personally would be much happier if Reinforced Defense was not linked to Shield/Armor expertise, and possibly if Shield and Armor Expertise were independent as well.

[Seikojin]

They could cut the ap cost to 1 per level. However, I haven't seen a need for it yet. I plan on trying some ranger/fighter builds tomorrow to see what it looks like for that combo, but right now, I think things are fairly cost balanced.

[orakio]

They could cut the ap cost to 1 per level. However, I haven't seen a need for it yet. I plan on trying some ranger/fighter builds tomorrow to see what it looks like for that combo, but right now, I think things are fairly cost balanced.

Things are fairly cost balanced for other trees perhaps, but definitely not for Stalwart.

I am fairly positive about the changes overall but Stalwart's AP costs are through the roof and the cost of getting Greater Stalwart stance is absolutely insane compared to live.

Even at 1 ap per rank, its 20 AP just for the Stalwart stance as is on live. That is 2 for the core stance, 1 point each for 3ranks of 6 enhancements. Really feels restrictive on the tree compared to live, although i can understand some of the increase due to the potency of the PrE overall.

Imo the two things that need the most work at the moment are Clerics (absolutely nothing offensive and protection tree is really meh) and Stalwart Defender. And maybe a slight reconsideration on how the skill->spellpower thing works, although i do like making more skills relevant.

[Furelli]

I agree that the costs feel way too high for what you get out of it. Really it seems to be because of the chains which feel nice but forces very heavy ap investment to get to the top teir.
I found with artificer you can get to select top teir abilities in one tree and have aps available to put into racial tree and even a small splash in a third tree but with stalwart all of the action points where required in the one place. Could do with being dechained a little, maybe only requiring two of the three Improved to open up Greater.

Furelli

[Cashiry]

I spent 79 Ap's in the Stalwart Tree and wasn't even able to take the capstone. costs are too high.

[Davelfus]

numbers might be wrong but,

on live you need 25 aps for the 3 tiers and the required stuff, and 66 progression to get the last tier, that gives:

- Superior Defensive Stance (+6 str/con, +20% max HP, +3 saves, 20 PRR, 40% AC, 75% threat)
- +3 AC
- +6 intim
- + max dex on armors and shields

on lamma we need 6*3*2 = 36 ap just to get the same stance.. forgetting the rest.
well not quite the same stance since we NEED to use a **** shield...

IMO they need to reduce the stance chain to 1 ap per rank

and probably need to forget the stupid chain requirements for more ranks (like you need rank 2 on the previous one to grab rank 2 on the one you want)

[Taojeff]

numbers might be wrong but,

on live you need 25 aps for the 3 tiers and the required stuff, and 66 progression to get the last tier, that gives:

- Superior Defensive Stance (+6 str/con, +20% max HP, +3 saves, 20 PRR, 40% AC, 75% threat)
- +3 AC
- +6 intim
- + max dex on armors and shields

on lamma we need 6*3*2 = 36 ap just to get the same stance.. forgetting the rest.
well not quite the same stance since we NEED to use a **** shield...

IMO they need to reduce the stance chain to 1 ap per rank

and probably need to forget the stupid chain requirements for more ranks (like you need rank 2 on the previous one to grab rank 2 on the one you want)

It is 36 for that one line. That is not counting the additonal you have to put in just to get to the top tier and open up abilites at certain levels. Also, no other tree other then stalwart takes so many points to get the majority of the good abilities. It is not just a comparison to what is on live, but what is in other trees on lama. I am not one that usually complains things are under powered, but the stalwart line is probably the worst tree on lama atm.

[eachna_gislin]

It is 36 for that one line. That is not counting the additonal you have to put in just to get to the top tier and open up abilites at certain levels. Also, no other tree other then stalwart takes so many points to get the majority of the good abilities. It is not just a comparison to what is on live, but what is in other trees on lama. I am not one that usually complains things are under powered, but the stalwart line is probably the worst tree on lama atm.

It may have some competition with the cruft they threw into the Cleric trees, but yeah, I agree it's pretty awful.