The Official Ranger Enhancements Discussion Thread!

[Drona]

What is really key is how the different class's compare with one another. Are FVS far better then clerics, Wizards far better then Sorcs, Fighters far better then Barbarians, etc. We will see.

Very good point to ponder over...but I think we have a clear winner in case of FvS/Cleric

[SqueakofDoom]

why are we being asked for a parature login to complete this survey? Stumbling block number 1, and I'm not likely to create an account on some random unknown site just to give you feedback. Your survey needs to be in-house, I'm not interested in giving parature my email addy.

edit: clicked again, and the login screen went away... strange.
edit2: after filling out the surver I got a msg saying 'you have been logged out due to inactivity' AND a msg saying 'thank you for filling out the survey'. I now have zero idea if my feedback was processed or not.

That is very bizarre! The link should take you directly to the survey: no logging in required. If anyone runs into this issue, please PM me!

[Drakos]

Why the change to only two ability point enhancements? Can you combine these with other prestige trees now? I like the changes, just wish I had more enhancement points to pick up more of them.

This may be because you can get ability enhancements from multiple PrE's and they stack. So get the two from you main and another two from a second.

[Drakos]

There should not be separate points spent in tree prereq for each tree. Instead there should be a global one so that once you've met the bottom requirements in one tree, you can take higher level enhancements in another without first having to start out at the bottom again.

Using a global minimum spent requirement would allow more flexible character creation.

As it is, a lot of builds will need to remain in one tree to get the full benefits and will hardly be able to take advantage of other trees.

The prerequisite points spent minimum in each tree will hurt character diversity in my opinion.

Sorry I can't agree here. It makes NO sense that you will be able to get the more advanced PrE abilities without investing in the lower abilities first.

[Alundaar]

how about ap requirements that have some sort of affinity for points spent to reduce amount needed spent in tree


right now it's 0 - 5 - 10 - 20 - 40 and that's to prevent capstone abilities from several trees being accumulated into one build or from someone getting capstone abilities too early in the game.


what if for every 10 ap spent it reduced the required ap spent in tree by 1

so for your first tree it would be 0 5 10 19 37 as far as leveling goes that lowers the earliest you can get capstone abilities by 3 ap but for investment into a second tree after 50 ap spent it would mean less investment in first tier abilities by making the ap required 0 - 0 - 5 - 14 - 33

using this it would make it so technically you could bare bones two trees and get probably 3 capstone effects between two trees but you would be missing alot of the meat in the trees and probably not any racial


thoughts?

[Fecerak]

You should only be able to get 1 capstone.

I think the best way to do it would be either:
A: Every point in another tree counts as 1/4th point in the other trees for qualifying for tier 1-4 abilities (as in, not core abilities, and not tier 5 abilities).
B: Tier 2 abilities require either 5 points spent in tree or 20 points spent in other trees.
Tier 3 abilities require either 10 points spent in tree or 40 points spent in other trees.
Tier 4-5 still work as they do now.
That would make grabbing a few tier 1-3 abilities after you have gotten your main tree possible, but would still require you to invest a bit in the tree to get the best abilities (tier 4-5)

[Alundaar]

You should only be able to get 1 capstone.

I think the best way to do it would be either:
A: Every point in another tree counts as 1/4th point in the other trees for qualifying for tier 1-4 abilities (as in, not core abilities, and not tier 5 abilities).
B: Tier 2 abilities require either 5 points spent in tree or 20 points spent in other trees.
Tier 3 abilities require either 10 points spent in tree or 40 points spent in other trees.
Tier 4-5 still work as they do now.
That would make grabbing a few tier 1-3 abilities after you have gotten your main tree possible, but would still require you to invest a bit in the tree to get the best abilities (tier 4-5)

In part I agree you should only be able to get one capstone

the actual capstones are in the 'core' abilities below the tree the ones that require you to be 20 levels of that class, i don't think those requirements are out of line. but only thing required to get tier 5 abilities is 5 levels of the class and enough points spent in it the way they laid out heroic durability to be a bonus per 5 levels of a class i can see alot more 15/5 splits.

I'd like to have a few tier 5's from both if i spend 45 in one and 35 in another

[Carpone]

for fury archers the slaying arrows are a must it adds 3000 base damage

Don't kid yourself thinking Fury will continue to work with ranged by the time the new enhancements are released.

[Alundaar]

Don't kid yourself thinking Fury will continue to work with ranged by the time the new enhancements are released.

0/10

don't be so negative as to think everything will be bugged or they will nerf things just for fun. but all the same thanks for your contribution to this thread

[sephiroth1084]

0/10

don't be so negative as to think everything will be bugged. but all the same thanks for your contribution to this thread

Who's kidding themselves?

[Djeserit]

Too many things you wouldn't use but are forced to take to meet the AP requirements.

Increased empathy? Tendon cut? Shatermantle shot? Is anyone excited about trying those out?

It should be a menu of all yummy items, leave you wishing you could have them all, not broccoli you are forced to eat.

[CaptainSpacePony]

I haven't been able to install the client so my opinions are not based on any play experience. I have not built any characters using the new trees.

That being said, the ranger trees are the best looking to me out of those shown so far. Good flavor, intresting abilities. Great concept.

[Fecerak]

Yeah, besides the fact that I really really really wish that slaying arrows as a sniper-esque ability was in DWS instead of AA. I'm thinking the ranger trees overall are probably the best designed of the bunch (except for battle engineer, which probably almost could go to live as is).

The only things I don't think is optimal are:
Lack of tier 5 melee abilities for DWS (as a hybrid PrE they should get more melee stuff in the last tier).
Not being able to get both the ranged and melee version of certain abilities even if I were willing to pay AP for each version (I feel like you should be able to get both to further show that it is a hybrid PrE).
AA stances being slightly weaker than I think they should be (the primary ones that is, the secondary core ones are fine).

[BOgre]

Right now it seems to be possible to bypass AP spent requirements for Core abilities. Spend the required amount of AP in Tree abilities to be able to purchase a Core ability. Right click to remove the spent Tree abilities, and the purchased Core ability remains.

I haven't checked to see if it's possible to unlock 3 sets of Core abilities in various panels, then go back to building your main PrE, gaining an effective over-80 AP worth of abilities, but it seems likely. Going to doublecheck.

K, it's possible to build over 80 this way, but it doesn't apply on hitting the Accept button. The panels still show the icons in the fudged Core abilities with 1/1 as though they are purchased, but the total AP spent at the bottom updates back down to 64, having removed the invalid Cores. Closing and reopening the enh panel refreshes the display.

[Davelfus]

REALLY? 20 aps to get favored enemy damage? and for more ranks i need to grab the to hit equivalent too? (and it is on deepwood sniper! at least can get some sa)

*** are you guys "eating" there...

that's why there should be a general class enhancement tree or list, whatever...

[kingfisher]

really? 20 aps to get favored enemy damage? And for more ranks i need to grab the to hit equivalent too? (and it is on deepwood sniper! At least can get some sa)

*** are you guys "eating" there...

That's why there should be a general class enhancement tree or list, whatever...

ding!

[BOgre]

After a lot more playing with this on my Tempest, I have the following thought:

1) The general class tree needs to happen.
There are just too many abilities that have been arbitrarily stuffed into specific PrE trees where they do not belong. Prominent examples would be:

Favoured Enemy lines.
Haste/Sprint/Skill/Attack/Damange/Resist boosts.
Item Defense
Improved Reaction/Defense/Awareness/Mobility
Critical Accuracy/Defense
Energy of the Wild
Devotion

All of these abilities are Ranger abilities, not specific PrE abilities, and requiring AP spent in the various trees is counter intuitive, expensive, confusing, and unnecessary. Devotion is completely absent, and that just doesn't fly at all.

2) The Core abilities row should more accurately represent their relevant PrE tiers
AA and DS Cores look pretty good but they are not my Main's PrE so I'm not very qualified to comment.
Tempest Cores have some glaring omissions:

Shield of Whirling Steel should include +x to PRR, increasing with each Core ability
Attack penalty reductions from the old Tempest line seem to be missing

Graceful Death doesn't belong in the Core row

3) Either/Or choices on Boosts need to go away
There is no sense in forcing these either or decisions. Haste boost and Sprint boost for example are completely unrelated skills. If I choose to invest AP into both, I should be able to.

4) Cooldowns and Durations on top Tier abilities seem arbitrary and uneccesary.
IF there were some synergistic effects between two abilities, I could see forcing the player to micromanage their timers. However, the current stock of top tier abilities are not strategicially deep enough to warrant this. In effect we are simply waiting for cooldowns to end and then clicking to refresh them. That could have been accomplished more gracefully by making them passive abilities with their own invisible timers/proc rates.

5) PrE Tiers in general have been reworked and renamed from the live system.
This breaks ToD ring set bonuses. Abilities on all of the PrE Core abilities row need to be renamed to reflect the live systems Tiers in order to remain compatible with ToD sets. That or rework ToD rings. I'd assume renaming the new Core abilities would be easier since that's what we're working on now.

Overall, the Ranger panels look to be the best and most well thought out of the current preview's crop. Within that, Tempest and Deepwood look like the best and most well thought out, while Arcane Archer seems to have been pieced together at the last minute to resemble the current AA. Obviously, everything needs its AP costs slashed, AP spent prereqs reworked, and 'arrow' prereqs reworked or removed altogether.
Also, most of the above applies to the racial trees as well, particularly the Core row issues.

[Davelfus]

Devotion is completely absent,

Know what? i can imagine their meeting a bit:

dev1: where will we put the devotion line for the ranger?
dev2: doesn't matter where we place it... they will complain a lot...
dev3: screw it! i got an idea... ppl were complaining about useless skills like heal right?
dev1&2: yeah....
dev3: and newbies think it increases healing all the time right?
dev1&2: yeah....
dev3: SO we make heal give devotion spell power! i'm a mad genious!!!!
dev1: MY GOD! its so obvious! brilliant!
dev2: HELLS, we can even create some **** skill in 2s and do the same for the other spellpower stuff!

and there we have it, that's why they changed the skills xD

[OverlordOfRats]

Deepwood Stalker

Change Favored Enemy to

Tier 1

Favored Defense: choose 1
Favored Protection: You gain +2/4/6 AC when attacked by a favored enemy.
Favored Resistance: You gain +1/2/3 saving throws against spells or effects from a favored enemy.

Tier 2

Favored Attack: Choose 1
Favored Accuracy: You gain +1/2/3 to-hit when attacking a favored enemy.
Favored Damage: You deal +1/2/3 damage when attacking a favored enemy.

Tier 3

Favored Defense: choose 1 (cannot be the same as Tier 1)
Favored Protection: You gain +2/4/6 AC when attacked by a favored enemy.
Favored Resistance: You gain +1/2/3 saving throws against spells or effects from a favored enemy.

Tier 4

Favored Attack: Choose 1 (cannot be the same as Tier 2)
Favored Accuracy: You gain +1/2/3 to-hit when attacking a favored enemy.
Favored Damage: You deal +1/2/3 damage when attacking a favored enemy.

Keep them linked (have to take Tier 1 before Tier 2 before Tier 3) if unlinking them would be to OP. Considering the AP spent in tree limitation, I feel having them unlinked would be OK.

[maddong]

I really like the ranger enhancements overall! They seem to be the best done so far.
I would change tempest awareness to: spot/search/listen (useful skill bonuses).
Critical accuracy isn't worth it, I would combine it with critical damage.
I would remove true strike.
Elemental arrows should do more damage (? 2d6) than force arrows perhaps instead of granting different elemental types (more unique rangers if each uses a different element).
I would have favored defense give both benefits and get rid of the second tier.
I would combine versatile empathy into the 3rd rank of increased empathy (most people will still ignore it).
I would remove favored accuracy.

As well as giving a means of devotion of course.
Great job on rangers!