The Official Fighter Enhancements Discussion Thread!

[Ancient]

disagree sounds like one more easy button added to the game, walking the path for an easier game and less challenging

Because resting at a shrine should be a big part of the game's challenge.

[HungarianRhapsody]

-Ascetic Training: This should be 3 separate enhancements, allowing me to take all 3 if I desire. As it stands, Agililty is the overriding best choice, which means there is basically no choice here, just the illusion of one, beyond skipping the purchase entirely.

I do agree that Agility is going to be the best choice for most Kensei, but check out the Will save one. It's +1/2/3 Will save and +0/0/1 Ki regeneration for the 3 levels of the ability. An additional stacking +1 Ki regeneration (especially since you'll miss out on the Monk level 20 version of that) is spectacular for anyone who has a Ki bar.

-A Good Death: Eyeballing 20% of an enemy's HP bar is not easy, nor is it a very stimulating tactic to rely on. Would prefer if the condition for this was something we could more tactically pursue, or even if it was randomized for reactive gameplay.

I agree with your point here, but there is a potential fix - different skins for DDO could add mark at 20% of HP on the display so that you know when to make that attack. I like the marks that BlackBird added to the HP bar in the focus orb.
http://www.lotrointerface.com/downlo...nfo.php?id=548
I recently downloaded DDO and did a fresh install, so I don't have BlackBird running now, but a "20%" mark should be reasonable to add to a skin for DDO.

[CaptainSpacePony]

Overbalance is underwhelming assuming it applies to shield bashes. Would be OP if it applied to weapon attacks.

"Might" be ok if it applies to secondary shield bashes.

[Cetus]

The more I think about this and play with the tree on lamannia, the more disappointed I'm getting about the tactics situation.

Someone in this thread mentioned severe stunning blow. I've posted in another thread mass stunning blow. Where's all the uber tactics stuff that kensei's are supposed to have?

Where's the boost regeneration?

How about some improvements to the weapon focus feats and critical accuracy enhancements? These are utterly horrendous.

The boost count is still a topic for concern - without the 3 from kensei and the 3 from fighter, thats 6 potential boosts getting chucked out the door. I'm reasonably sure that this is just an oversight, but there's always room for doubt.

[Taojeff]

The more I think about this and play with the tree on lamannia, the more disappointed I'm getting about the tactics situation.

Someone in this thread mentioned severe stunning blow. I've posted in another thread mass stunning blow. Where's all the uber tactics stuff that kensei's are supposed to have?

Where's the boost regeneration?

How about some improvements to the weapon focus feats and critical accuracy enhancements? These are utterly horrendous.

The boost count is still a topic for concern - without the 3 from kensei and the 3 from fighter, thats 6 potential boosts getting chucked out the door. I'm reasonably sure that this is just an oversight, but there's always room for doubt.

I think boost regeneration might end up being a bit op. The weapon focus feats could use a buff. I recommended giving double the bonus for the enhancements to people that have these feats (for example in kensai if you have weapon focus, weapon spec, or greater weapon focus you gain +2 instead of +1) that way fighters get more out of it then splashes, but people who do not want to take those feats can still get to the top of the tree by spending the prerequisite APs.

[Cetus]

I think boost regeneration might end up being a bit op. The weapon focus feats could use a buff. I recommended giving double the bonus for the enhancements to people that have these feats (for example in kensai if you have weapon focus, weapon spec, or greater weapon focus you gain +2 instead of +1) that way fighters get more out of it then splashes, but people who do not want to take those feats can still get to the top of the tree by spending the prerequisite APs.

The weapon spec feats still exist, despite their removal as pre reqs.

The most obvious, and mind numbingly simple solution is to just combine the weapon focus feat and the weapon spec feat into one feat with an added doublestrike bonus:

Weapon Focus: You gain +1 to hit, 1% doublestrike and +2 to damage with slashing weapons.

Greater Weapon Focus: You gain an additional +1 to hit, 1% doublestrike and +2 to damage with slashing weapons.

Make the weapon foci do that, eliminate weapon spec as feats, and we're done.

[HungarianRhapsody]

Since To Hit is essentially pointless now, changing the feats that give only +To Hit makes a lot of sense. Giving the Fighter past life feats a little boost would be nice as well.

[maddong]

Combine critical accuracy into critical damage in tier 4.
Have the stalwart stance not cancel when you unequip a shield, you just lose the benefits until a shield is reworn.

[ComicRelief]

{Note to Trolls: Remember, this is a feedback thread. As such, these are *my* comments, based on *my* play style and *my* builds. Disagree with me? Fine. But don't bother trying to troll me, 'cuz I'm not listening...}

Let's get right to it, shall we?


Pros:

The new UI is nice. It is more intuitive than the lists. With the introduction of EDs, and the EN following a similar design (though may the reverse is true?) it is somewhat "familiar" and not something completely new.


Cons - General:

1) There are a several Fighter enhancements that are “general” in nature and not PrE specific (e.g. Tactics, Critical Accuracy/Damage, Improved Dodge/Mobility, Item Defense, etc.). They should either be given their own “general” panel (I really dislike the description “tree”, because it's not that accurate; there are “trees” in the panels, yes, but the panels themselves are not really “trees”. Still, it is what it is.) *OR* they should be marked (with an asterisk, maybe?) in the panels they are located and if the “AP spent” prerequisites are kept (please, don't), the APs used on them should count in all the class panels/trees.

2) Speaking of AP spending requirements, AP Spending requirements suck. If you want to limit "when" certain ENs are available, do so by toon/class level.

3) “Fighter Toughness” is kind of missing. I see where there is something under the “Stalwart Defender” core ENs, but it gives HP based on APs spent “in the tree”. Which sucks – mainly because I'm not about to spend 40 APs (half of the total available APs) in this 'tree' just to get back to where “Fighter Toughness 4” currently can take us. Bring back the dedicated “Fighter Toughness” line, or something similar that is not dependent on APs spent in tree.

4) Fighter Skill enhancements are missing. With fighters so skill starved, I assume several use these to supplement skill points. I don't, personally, so not really sure if it's a big deal or not.

5) “Flanking Mastery” appears to be missing (at least, I didn't see it – but then, I can be blind, at times).

6) Fighters are arguably the most flexible build in the game – partly due to the number of Feats available, but the EN system really seems...lacking for anything other than “Sword and Board”. There are no special ENs of PrEs for those fighters who use TWF or THF. Yes, there is the “Tempest” PrE for Rangers, but that's Rangers, not Fighters. Most of my Fighters use a TWF build. I'm not suggesting another “Tempest” for fighters, but there's got to be some ENs that could be added to augment TWF and THF, no?


Cons – K Specific:

1) There are too many “Weapon Group Specialization” categories. Why not keep the same categories as in the feats? (i.e. Bludgeoning, Slashing, Piercing, Ranged, and Thrown. Though you can add “unarmed”, too). I truly don't see the need for an ultra-specialized “Druid” weapons category...but maybe that's just me.

2) Exotic weapons already require separate feats (for each exotic weapon desired), why add to the burden by adding a separate EN for Kensei as well?

3) Not exactly a “con”, but not really a “pro” either, so it's listed here. Why is there STAT training option for WIS? If this were the Monk ENs, then sure, but Fighter? It isn't there now on live. This may be the first EN that is specifically geared for possible multi-classing – not that this is a bad thing – just...different than what is traditionally expected.


Cons – SD Specific:

1) “Threat Countenance” is really more of a “general” fighter EN. See discussion on “general” EN, above.


I'm not sure if Kensei is 'broken' or not. When I tried to take more than one “Weapon Group Specialization”, I could not. Someone who is more well versed in Kensei would need to go over such things to give a better informed opinion, as I have not ever used the Kensei PrE.

Unlike several others, my main fighter is a (TWF) “generalist”, not a “specialist”. I also do not like using a bunch of clickies, so I rarely use tactics. I realize this may not be the “norm”, but I've got to believe there are more out there like me who play this way, as well. I've been flamed for stating my play style in the fora (sorry, “forums”) before – suggesting I'm a troll because I “don't play a fighter the right way”, but as I said – fighters are arguably the most flexible class out there and there are many, many ways of playing them. My play style may be a bit “unusual”, but does that mean it shouldn't be considered during the re-vamping of ENs?

Methinks not.

[Noctus]

...
I also do not like using a bunch of clickies, so I rarely use tactics. I realize this may not be the “norm”, but I've got to believe there are more out there like me who play this way, as well. I've been flamed for stating my play style in the fora (sorry, “forums”) before – suggesting I'm a troll because I “don't play a fighter the right way”, but as I said – fighters are arguably the most flexible class out there and there are many, many ways of playing them. My play style may be a bit “unusual”, but does that mean it shouldn't be considered during the re-vamping of ENs?

Methinks not.

I hear ye. I, too, dont like playing the cooldown-timer watching game. I have 4 keyboardletters i put my boosts/tactics/special attacks on. (W, R, G, V, - i use a ESDF-Setup). I use these 4 because i can handle these without getting distracted by trying to land the right boost/tactic at the righttime, when the cooldown if off again, instead of enjoying the fight, watching for positioning and keeping an eye out on the health of my groupmates. Even if i am not on a healer, if i need to run over *right now* and Trip/Stun/Intimidate a mob that is curtrently beating at them.

These hold on my THF-Fighter: Trip, Stun, Cleave, Great Cleave.
All the other special attacks and boosts go on the higher numbers. And thus get used almost never. I have to break my combatflow to intim, as its on "6", same with Haste Boost on "0" for bossfights.

I rather have a less efficient character that i still enjoy playing, then getting slightly stressed out when playing to get the full effect out of the ever-inflating number of little special attacks and short-time boosts. I rather enjoy concentrating on the combat and its positioning, which mobs to engage first and which combat tactic to use against them, then on playing the cooldown-piano.
For example constantly keeping up the 1min Psionic +8 STR boost from Kensai i found tedious busywork. If i have 7 charges, and ALWAYS activate them one after the other, why not make it one click for 7min? But no - you have to play the cooldown piano or loose out.

[ThePrisoner]

The weapon spec feats still exist, despite their removal as pre reqs.

The most obvious, and mind numbingly simple solution is to just combine the weapon focus feat and the weapon spec feat into one feat with an added doublestrike bonus:

Weapon Focus: You gain +1 to hit, 1% doublestrike and +2 to damage with slashing weapons.

Greater Weapon Focus: You gain an additional +1 to hit, 1% doublestrike and +2 to damage with slashing weapons.

Make the weapon foci do that, eliminate weapon spec as feats, and we're done.

Hahaha. It wasn't enough to combine two existing feats, a third new one had to be added in?

I like the idea of my characters getting buffed in a ridiculous way as well, but at some point I think you have to reel in the lobbying and try to be somewhat subjective.

[Cetus]

For example constantly keeping up the 1min Psionic +8 STR boost from Kensai i found tedious busywork. If i have 7 charges, and ALWAYS activate them one after the other, why not make it one click for 7min? But no - you have to play the cooldown piano or loose out.

I like this thought

It would be interesting to be able to program consecutive boost usage if you are going to hit it anyway. Am I going to unload all my haste boosts on this boss? Ok, and just let em all go if I want.

Additionally, the way haste boost 4 and damage boost 4 work right now completely nullify the usage of boosts I, II, and III. Wouldn't it expand the longevity of your effectiveness if you can use a tier 3 or tier 2 boost after your tier 4's are all expired?

This might be a nice alternative to regenning boosts if it isn't going to be implemented.

[SealedInSong]

disagree sounds like one more easy button added to the game, walking the path for an easier game and less challenging

Howdy, Well Met

Perhaps you can explain your position on the merits having an ability recharge rather than useable just a few times rather than accuse people of clamoring for an easy button.

Thanks.

[SealedInSong]

I think boost regeneration might end up being a bit op. The weapon focus feats could use a buff. I recommended giving double the bonus for the enhancements to people that have these feats (for example in kensai if you have weapon focus, weapon spec, or greater weapon focus you gain +2 instead of +1) that way fighters get more out of it then splashes, but people who do not want to take those feats can still get to the top of the tree by spending the prerequisite APs.

I see where you're going, but I think that double the bonus is still not enough.

Also, action boost regeneration is a great idea since it allows you to know that you'll have an action boost for a particular fight, rather than having to conserve them and ending up wasting them by the time you get to a shrine.

Compare: manyshot, uncanny dodge.

It's pretty easy to mitigate the power of specific action boosts by either adjusting the benefit they give or increasing the cooldown.

Items that increase uses (i.e. Lesser Action Boost on Stalwart/Verik's Necklace) should slightly reduce the cooldown.

[Silverleafeon]

Its the bottom of the 9th, one out (alpha) and chicken little is two runs ahead.
There is a wizard on first base, and a sorcerer on second base.
The Devs are the home team, and time out has been called.

Will the Devs pull it off, or will they lose the game to chicken little?



Speaking as someone who has played every class and race the old fashion way,
I am distressed and upset at the current events playing out in this enhancement alpha.


You, the Devs, are about to implement a nerf to every class in the game except two.
That is a pretty strong charge, let's talk it over.


Archmage wizards probably need some more flexablity.
Other than that, the arcane powerhouses (Sorcerer and Wizard) almost always come out on top.

The enhancements for the melee is coming along, until one considers that melees exist in
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbiosis
with other classes. When those classes suffer, the melee classes suffer.

Most melees have gotten to the point of realizing that sorcerers and wizards often don't care.
That is why we melees carry haste clickies, haste potions, and melee aclarity items.
That is why we melees carry permanent blur items.
We can get along if we have to without them.

But we melees have another Symbiosis, a strong greater one that is much more important.
If this group is weak, we melee are also weak.
It is the group of classes that can cast mass curative spells.

This group includes Bards, Druids, Clerics, and Favored Souls.
The games fate and destiny are interwoven with their destiny.

These four classes have some else in common.
All four of them currently only have tier two prestige classes.
Since three tier should exists, one can obviously concluded that each of these classes
should be increased in enhancement power by 50% during this enhancement update.

Bards also suffer as already needing upgrades in many forms.
They sit at the bottom of all the classes, needing much love.
I will not list in detail what should be changed as you the Devs already have my very
details notes on the subject documented for later access.

While some will say, the spellsinger looks kinda nice, I say you have a long way to go.
The bard needs a lot of work, you know what it is, do it.


Fifty percent is a lot of power addition.
Fear is the original sin.
Be bold, be creative, show us how smart you can be.

[~Blacksoft]

Im seeing the kensei mising out on critical damage.

Only see +3 critical in the tree like you get from assassin and temepest trees.

Fighter should have more.

Please add +1 crit damage per tier of +1 hit and +1 damage tiers.

So it reads + 1 to hit, damage, and on crits (+2 with two handed weapons)

[Andu_Indorin]

Another look at the problem ...

Of the 20 enhancement slot in this tree, considered in aggregate, 11 appear to be Monk oriented in one degree or another, while only 9 might be considered oriented toward the traditional, heavily-armored, offensive fighter.

To review:
1) The Tier Five "One with Blade" is Monk Enhancement capping a Fighter tree.
2) The three Dodge-based enhancement slots ("Read in the Wind," "Improved Dodge," and "Improved Mobility" are geared to the non-armored/light armored, i.e., oriented toward Monks rather than traditionally armored fighters.
3) Of the two Ability Stat enhancement slots, all three options are oriented towards Monks, but only one for a fighter.
4) Of the Ascetic Training option, two of three options are oriented towards Monks, while one -- at best -- are oriented toward fighters.
5) The three enhancements of "Medititive Focus" series, as well as the "Exotic Weapon Mastery," while strictly not oriented towards Monks, is certainly more sympathetic to that class rather than that of Fighters.

My principal reason in enumerating these is not to disparage these enhancements, per se. Rather, it is to highlight that there is very little for the heavily armored Fighter who wants to use the very traditional Great Sword/Great Axe build, rather than a Sword & Shield build (i.e., Stalwart Defender). If a such a fighter wanted to ignore most of the "ascetism" above, what enhancements are left?

1) The "Main Line" of "Weapon Specialization," culminating with "Keen Edge" -- very nice if you can spend up to 40 ap in enhancements that you might not otherwise take.
2) Boosts to Tactical DCs, though overcostly when compared to the benefits.
3) The Confirm Crit and Crit Damage, though again overcostly versus the benefits. But the "Death Blow" at Tier 5 is very nice. (I guess it's "Good" if one is ascetic about finishing off your enemy).
4) Basic Attack Boost, the benefits of which seem increasingly marginal given the evolution of the game.

In all, a very, very vanilla offering. It raises the concern that many Fighters of the Great Sword/Great Axe persuasion may move to different fields of battle.

[Mister_Shevek]

My suggestion:

Please remove the greater weapon focus requirement. That necessitates 8 levels of Fighter. No other enhancement line requires that many levels to get to tier 5. The highest feat it should require is weapon spec.

[AylinIsAwesome]

To review:
1) The Tier Five "One with Blade" is Monk Enhancement capping a Fighter tree.

It is an enhancement that allows for some interesting Fighter/Monk builds, say one that uses Khopeshes while centered.

2) The three Dodge-based enhancement slots ("Read in the Wind," "Improved Dodge," and "Improved Mobility" are geared to the non-armored/light armored, i.e., oriented toward Monks rather than traditionally armored fighters.

Improved Dodge and Improved Mobility are probably more geared towards Evasion Fighters, that have less AC and PRR but can make up for that with more Dodge.

Reed in the Wind can be used to the same effect by a Fighter in any armor type (as long as you aren't already at your dodge cap). Still, it has the +1W on its attack.

3) Of the two Ability Stat enhancement slots, all three options are oriented towards Monks, but only one for a fighter.

STR is obviously a good Fighter enhancement.
DEX and WIS are good for multiclassing, especially with Monks, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing. You can always take the STR instead.

4) Of the Ascetic Training option, two of three options are oriented towards Monks, while one -- at best -- are oriented toward fighters.

Conditioning is good for Fighters, more HP is always nice.
Agility is awesome for Fighters. More reflex save (a weak save for Fighters) and increased Dodge cap is a nice benefit to any Fighter.
Contemplation is ok for Fighters. The increased will save is nice, but the concentration is kinda meh.

So that's at least 2/3 of them, not 1/3.

5) The three enhancements of "Medititive Focus" series, as well as the "Exotic Weapon Mastery," while strictly not oriented towards Monks, is certainly more sympathetic to that class rather than that of Fighters.

For the first two (Spiritual Bond and Weapon Meditation), they give benefits to all fighters, not just those that are Monks. +1 to your weapons enhancement bonus, just for Vorpaling with the first one? The main thing with Weapon Meditation is that it takes up time.

Shattering Strike definitely gets better with higher WIS, but can still be used as a +3W attack. I do wish the DC was increased by every fighter level instead of every other fighter level instead.

So the first one is good, but the other two aren't really needed.

As for Exotic Weapon Mastery...huh? How does it benefit Monk-splashes more than pure Fighters? Kensei Focus: Martial Arts already gives benefits to all of the standard Monk weapons unless I am mistaken. Mainly it lets you add in the other exotic weapons to their particular field (Khopeshes, Bastard Swords, certain crossbows, Dwarven Axes).

My principal reason in enumerating these is not to disparage these enhancements, per se. Rather, it is to highlight that there is very little for the heavily armored Fighter who wants to use the very traditional Great Sword/Great Axe build, rather than a Sword & Shield build (i.e., Stalwart Defender). If a such a fighter wanted to ignore most of the "ascetism" above, what enhancements are left?

Bwuh? There are lots of enhancements for the heavy-armor Fighter with either TWF or THF.

T1: Weapon Group Specialization, Reed in the Wind, possible Exotic Weapon Mastery
T2: Tactics, Weapon Group Specialization, Ascetic Training
T3: Critical Accuracy, Weapon Group Specialization, STR
T4: Critical Damage, Weapon Group Specialization, STR
T5: A Good Death, Keen Edge

All of the core enhancements.

That's 14 + the 6 from the core.

1) The "Main Line" of "Weapon Specialization," culminating with "Keen Edge" -- very nice if you can spend up to 40 ap in enhancements that you might not otherwise take.

Now the highest level has been reduced to 30 AP requirement. So...
8 - Weapon Group Specialization
4 - STR
3 - Reed in the Wind
6 - Tactics
12 - Critical Damage
= 33 AP

More than enough to grab A Good Death and Keen Edge for another 2.

2) Boosts to Tactical DCs, though overcostly when compared to the benefits.

On live right now, +3 to Stunning Blow costs 6 AP. And you're saying that +3 to ALL of the tactical DCs at 6 AP is too expensive? o_O

3) The Confirm Crit and Crit Damage, though again overcostly versus the benefits. But the "Death Blow" at Tier 5 is very nice. (I guess it's "Good" if one is ascetic about finishing off your enemy).

I agree that they are overpriced, but based on some dev comments I think these will cost 1 per rank when they actually get to live.

4) Basic Attack Boost, the benefits of which seem increasingly marginal given the evolution of the game.

Attack Boost is a stain for every class that has it. Mainly I didn't see Haste Boost...intended? I hope not.

[count_spicoli]

Still no stunning blow, trip, sunder enhancements. Only the 3 tactics bonuses we already get per tier of kensai on live. Is this oversight or being worked on. As stands my ftr barb is going to lose 3 sb and 2 trip dc with this set up