The Official Fighter Enhancements Discussion Thread!

[Scraap]

Equally concerning is the boost COUNT that just took a plunge. In this tree, we're losing 3 boosts that we get from kensei, and 3 more boosts that fighters got from fighter extra action boost enhancements. Thats 6 potential boosts, gone. Terrible

I think your staggering blow is genius by the way, I'd love that thing.

In general, I think the system as a whole would be better served making action boosts cooldown based with ap lines to reduce the cooldown, or similar to fvs wings with a stack and regeneration over time.

[Cetus]

In general, I think the system as a whole would be better served making action boosts cooldown based with ap lines to reduce the cooldown, or similar to fvs wings with a stack and regeneration over time.

Well, the major draw of dreadnaught is to allow instant boost activation, so thats not as much of an issue.

Whats more concerning is that my 15 boosts on live will turn into 10 with these changes. Losing 5 boosts off the top will be devastating for my performance.

An action boost regen is what I've been asking for throughout the past couple years. An enhancement that can give us regenning boosts would be amazing.

Action Boost Regeneration: Your action boosts regenerate at a rate of 1 boost per 3/2:30/2:00 minutes. 1 AP per tier.

Simple, and incredibly useful. I have no idea why the devs didn't give us a boost regen option by now. Same goes for a barbarians rage but thats off topic.

[DarkForte]

An action boost regen is what I've been asking for throughout the past couple years. An enhancement that can give us regenning boosts would be amazing.

Action Boost Regeneration: Your action boosts regenerate at a rate of 1 boost per 3/2:30/2:00 minutes. 1 AP per tier.

This. It'd be especially useful for blitzer fighters that shouldn't be shrining.

Sadly, I think turbine doesn't seem to have put any thought into this tree, or taken into account any of the feedback us players have been giving.

[ddobard1]

An action boost regen is what I've been asking for throughout the past couple years. An enhancement that can give us regenning boosts would be amazing.

disagree sounds like one more easy button added to the game, walking the path for an easier game and less challenging

[rest]

disagree sounds like one more easy button added to the game, walking the path for an easier game and less challenging

You are truly a master of The Craft. Bravo, keep up the great work!

[Engoril]

I've tried this out on my pure level 24 fighter. Things I don't like about it:

- Lost 1 point of STR. Can only get +2 STR enhancements. That's a loss of 1 STR. Tried getting a 3rd by taking +2 from Kensai and +1 from Stalwart but it doesn't work. Stalwart tree appears to let you pick it, but doesn't actually give it to you.

- Lost 5 points critical hit damage

- Lost haste boost

- Lost 4 action boosts. On live I have 12 (with Legendary Dreadnought). On Lamannia can only get to 8.

- Lost 1 tactics DC. Potentially someone can lose up to 3. Live has the potential to get +6. Lamannia only +3 (when considering just Fighter enhancements).

- What's with the WIS modifier on Kensai Shattering Strike. Fortunately it's still interesting as an attack to want to take it, but the secondary effect with a 10 + half fighter levels + WIS DC is just laughable.

- Kensai Weapon Mediation and Attack Boost as the first 2 picks in a long chain that leads to much more interesting enhancements is annoying. Feels like a waste of far too many points to get to level 3 Kensai Shattering Strike. I cannot ever imagine using those two prerequisites.

- The three Kensai enhancements that you have to choose whether to have it only for ranged or only for melee, is needless restrictive and complicated. Also confusing as one of them swaps the order they are listed. Two have the ranged option first and one has the melee option first. I ended up picking the wrong one when I chose the 3rd power because I'd gotten used to a different order with the first 2 choices.

- The having to pick your Kensai Weapon Specialization 6 times, even though 7 of the 8 choices are not actually available after the first time you do it. It's also very weird and klunky the way you are likely to pick it at tier 1 first before going down a row and selecting it again as the 1st core ability, which then makes it properly working for the teir 1, 2, 3 etc choices. We should only need to make the group choice once. On the other picks it should just use the one we've already chosen. It also wasn't obvious the first time that I actually needed to make a choice for the 1st core ability.

- Likewise the Stalwart Defense boosts are also klunky. You can pick boosts for your stalwart defense toggle, before you have access to the core ability that grants you that defense toggle. This may work okay for someone who is allocating a large number of AP. But it strikes me as needlessly confusing for someone who is leveling a fighter for the first time and who is allocating AP as they level.

- What are "inate abilities" that Strike With No Thought uses to grant 1% doublestrike for? I thought it might be the core abilities but there are 6 of those and it only got to 4% whem I had all 6.

[thegreatfox]

I didn't read through everything in this thread so sorry if something here has already been covered, but here is my opinion on the new kensai enhancements.

1. I noticed that in order to get kensai focus for an exotic weapon you have to take an extra enhancement on top of the enhancement for the weapon groups. On live right now I can just go straight to bastard sword focus, and as such bastard swords are all I use. So now I have to use up more AP just to get back to where I am currently on live. I understand that this option opens up some choices and allows people to, say, wield a bastard sword in one hand and then some other good heavy blade in the other hand and still get kensai bonuses for both, but I think I'll be sticking to my bastard swords; I have one for almost every occasion other than stuff like abbot where slashing won't break DR, but this new system doesn't help with that anyway. So all in all, I don't like that I have to spend extra AP just so I can continue being a bastard sword specialist. Maybe let us choose one or the other? An exotic weapon or a weapon group. Either of which would open up the rest of the enhancements? I don't know...something.

2. Haste boost: I'm pretty sure the lack of haste boost was brought to your attention many times during the Q&A event, and I saw one of you devs post that it would be looked into. So I assume haste boost is supposed to be in there somewhere and it somehow got left out. And while you work to get it back in there, you know what would be really nice? If you could replace that worthless attack boost pre for the haste boost. You know the last time I wished I had an attack boost? Yeah, me neither (especially with all this new stuff like the battle meditation adding enhancement bonuses to your weapons). Make haste boost the prerequisite for that line and fighters everywhere will thank you.

3. Shattering strike: It looks kind of cool and I was really planning on taking it, until I saw the DC for it (10+ half fighter level + wis mod). So, a pure fighter at level 20 would be a 20 +wis mod DC. Now, show of hands, who here has at least a 30+ wis mod to make this ability work sometimes? Well, maybe some monks, which is probably what its geared towards...but I don't think I know many fighters that have that kind of wis. Although, for monks they would have less fighter levels and have less DC, so they might need like 36+ wis mod. Now I know it has 3 tiers, and maybe as the tiers go up so does the DC, but since I am looking at it on a level 7 fighter I just made I'm not sure.

4. I'm sure I saw this in this thread at the start, but combat DC's, they need to be higher!

5. Spiritual bond says it gives a stack of battle meditation on a vorpal if you have fewer stacks of battle meditation than kensai core abilities, so you can have up to 6 stacks of this at a time if you have all kensai core abilities, but then the enhancement says it can stack up to 10 times, so can you get 10 or 6?

6.Weapon meditation: It looks exactly like spiritual bond except it looks like it can actually go to 10, and can be built on command rather than vorpal hits on enemies. So it would be worth getting it since you could get 4 more stacks on your weapon and you can do it anytime you want, like before a boss fight, but the downside is that these stacks only last 10 seconds, so having both abilities could mean you can do a quick meditation to max out the stacks before a fight and then use spiritual bond to sustain at least 6 of the stacks through the fight. Only question, how many times can you meditate per rest?

7. Deadly strike: Alright, so if you got rid of attack boost this ability would have to use something else, but honestly, at this point there are quite a few new things that need clicking, like this ability, one cut, power surge, a good death, reed in the wind (if you can take it), shattering strike, boosts, cleave, great cleave, more boosts, momentum swing, lay waste, volcanoes edge/anvil of thunder/that other one, masters blitz, did I mention more boosts? Its going to be a clicking frenzy at max level now. I don't even know what I'm going to put on my main bar there are so many options. And all this ability does for you, I think, is a guaranteed crit that might do 500 more damage on a vorpal. Maybe make it do something passive? Like when X happens you get a guaranteed crit that does 500 damage on a vorpal, or when you have X amount of stacks, or if you get a vorpal your next vorpal does 500 extra damage, with some obvious limitations to prevent continuous 500 damage vorpals.

Well I think that's it, for now

[Cetus]

disagree sounds like one more easy button added to the game, walking the path for an easier game and less challenging

What? Master's blitz, unbridled fury, everything is nothing can be used every 5 minutes. Manyshot is good every 2 minutes, but I can't get a haste boost back if I stand around all day?

A player who finds the game difficult today will continue to find it equally difficult with a boost regenning once every 2-3 minutes, that won't make or break his or her success.

What it will do, however, is allow me to skip a few shrines and maybe worry a bit less about zoning in with my verik's necklace on to every quest so I can squeeze out an extra 2 precious friggin boosts.

Its much more convenient and a much smoother way to play. Pally's smites regen, healing auras regen, wings regen, etc...the mechanic is already in place.

[Scraap]

4. I'm sure I saw this in this thread at the start, but combat DC's, they need to be higher!

On this in particular: is the present DC system staying in place, and if so, are mob saves getting knocked down a few pegs in keeping with our own?

[lugoman]

Tier 3:
Critical Accuracy (+1/2/3 to confirm critical hits)

Maybe change to stack-able seeker?

Also not sure why they are changing SD. They just changed it for the better a few updates ago and it is fine.

[Feithlin]

I'll add some more proposals for Kensei:

Tier 4: Knocking Blow
Requires: Stunning Blow
The kensei has learned to strike with extreme precision his opponents, rendering his stunning blows more efficient.
The duration of Stunning Blow increases by 33%/66%/100% (to 8/10/12 sec.).

Tier 3: Bewildering Strike
Requires: Stunning Blow and Sap.
Special attack (cooldown: 15 sec.): on a failed Fort save against a DC equal to your stunning DC, the target is bewildered. He cannot act, but isn't considered helpless. This attack is on a different timer than Stunning Blow and Sap, and lasts 12 sec. (a new save may be allowed every 4 sec.).

Core ability (tier 4): Weaponmaster
You don't automatically miss to hit on a '1' when using your Focus Weapons.

[lzc3025896]

Considered kensai is the master of tactical feats,it is logical for him/her to use tactical feats more offen,which will reduce the CD for tactical feats.15 secs for a stunningbelow is way far to long compared to monk stunning fist.
For stunning fist which uses ki ,it should be so how efficient than ki free tactical feats.So I'm not gonna ask for 5 sec CD,how about a enhancement Efficient meta tactical feats reduce selected tactical feats CD for 2/4/6 secs or even 1/2/3secs

[sephiroth1084]

Would have really liked to see some enhancements that actually build upon tactical feats, reducing cooldowns, increasing durations, or (more interesting) expanded upon the effects of the feats, such as by making them AoEs, or adding more effects to them.

[Claver]

I find the lack of a specific weapon choice in the Kensai tree disturbing.

I acknowledge that this may be more of a flavor/ role-play/ D&D purist point of view but nonetheless, I will miss Weapon Specialization.

Same here! I want my fantasy character to be master of the longsword....not master of cutlery and kitchen utensils.

My guess is turbine grouped various weapons together to save real estate on the smaller GUI enhancement tree.

A lack of available space on the enhancement tree is probably one of the reasons they moved spell power to skills (heal/repair) as well.

[R_2_D_2]

Honestly speaking, I'm disappointed in the Kensai tree. Not only did we lose raw damage due to the loss of one level of Fighter Strength, we lost fighter weapon specialization, some seeker damage on crits, and to make matters worse now Kensai work better with high wisdom for some of its new abilities. Sure we got the str bonus back if you combine human with fighter kensai through action surge which turns Power Surge into a mini rage for a +3 up to 4 stats but still. Even worse, those new activated abilities now make the Kensai look like a wannabe Warblade.

All in all... the new Kensai tree now makes the fighter fit to be a dipping class for monks who want to wield non monk weapons. Thoughts?

[Scraap]

On the SD tree- It honestly strikes me that the stance augmentations were broken up at least to some degree in order to provide filler, so here's a notion:

Combine the second chain with the first, and two additional ones to the chain:

Tier 4:
Arcane Defense: 1/3: adds 1/3/5 to saves while blocking. (corresponds to the epic elemental absorption effect)
Tier 5:
Call Out: 1/3: performs an intimidate check against a specific mob with a +3/6/9 bonus. (Manipulating the AI is admittedly quite a powerful ability, so that should cost, by the same token, placing it in a position to be gotten early in the career if you focus for it means time to practice.)

Not sure what to add to replace the gap for the second T3 in that chain that would be desirable from a survivability or manipulation standpoint...

[HatsuharuZ]

What I would like to see in the Fighter tree is some synergy with the fighter bonus feat list.

Example:

Enhancement Name: Power Strikes
Ranks: 3
AP Cost: 1 per rank
Description: You gain +1 melee damage per rank, at a cost of -1 to to-hit rolls. You gain twice the benefit when using Power Attack. Rank 3: When using power attack, your weapons break Adamantine DR.


Also, it would be nice to see something in the Kensei tree that has something to do with martial arts. Like, say, an enhancement version of the blind-fight feat. Just change it to blindness immunity, or % dodge bypass.

[Jay203]

i'm surprised they didn't put an upgrade to stunning blow....
i want that severe stunning blow those mobs have been using on me

[btolson]

Various Thoughts:

STALWART

-Being able to spend AP on Stalwart Stance boosts starting from level 1 when the stance doesn't actually become available until level 6 is very strange. Can you explore moving the stance to the level 3 position (at a minimum) instead? This tree feels like a waste for low-level character until the Stance becomes available, so it should really come sooner.

-I dislike the order of the Stalwart Stance boosts. PRR is not especially useful at low levels: it shines primarily when enemies are routinely hitting you for triple digit damage. +Con/Str/Hitpoints on the other hand are quite useful at low levels, but these are currently pretty high in the tree, to the degree that maxing all 3 will require 46 points spent in the tree. More of these boosts should be side-by-side in the same row rather than stacked up in the same column, so I can more freely dabble with 1/3 in several stance boosts without running into AP-spent pre-reqs (this is another playing-while-leveling concern).

-I dislike the chain dependency on the Stalwart Stance boosts. Being forced to go 3/3 in every single lower enhancement to go 3/3 in even one of the higher ones is pretty restrictive. Maybe I am making a soloist build, and do not to waste AP on +Threat. Maybe I feel my saves are otherwise good enough that I don't want to spend 6 AP for +3 more. Or maybe I have a legitimate use for some of these benefits, but just want the freedom to make a hard decision or experiment and put those points towards something more unique/compelling without also sacrificing 30% max hp. Surely you can come up with a better way to gate this enhancement that doesn't force me to buy stuff that I'd prefer not to.

-Stuff is generally too expensive. Any enhancement that can be purchased 3/3 times should only be 1 AP per purchase, except for +10/20/30% HP and any other /really/ powerful bonuses.

-I cannot fathom why +3 armor/shield enhancement bonus is higher in the tree than +50% armor/shield contribution.

-Counterattack is not strong enough to be worth limitation by action boosts both in terms of how this limits uses per shrine and how it excludes the use of other action boosts. As an action boost, this will have bottom priority compared to almost any other boost it shares mutual exclusivity with.

-Active Blocking is not made attractive enough for a PrE that revolves around mandatory shield use; Stalwarts do not gain any more effective defense with active blocking than anyone else that has full-BAB. Some new enhancement(s) should be added that boost Blocking DR, or attach PRR to active blocking, or maybe something more unique/iconic like being to fully absorb one hit no matter how strong per X seconds while actively blocking.

-Overbalance is not very useful, especially for the cost. If Improved Shield Bashing was not limited to 1 hit/sec, and could proc at its standard rate (20%, or 35% with relevant enh's) on cleaves, then this would become worth 2 AP when coupled with that investment. For characters not interested in that type of investment, however, this is still a mandatory waste of AP.

-Stand Fast is another ability that I do not want to be forced to buy, especially as an action boost that has mutual exclusivity with all the others.


KENSAI

-Exotic Weapon Mastery is a nonsensical tax. Spending a feat isn't enough? This should be rolled into Kensai Focus, but only function if you have the proficiency feat behind the exotic weapon you are trying to use.

-Reed in the Wind: duration of dodge buff would be too short, if it actually worked.

-Spiritual Bond: I am unclear if the reference to "the number of Kensai Core Abilities you possess" applies to those acquired prior to this one.

-Strike with no Thought: I am unclear if the reference to "additional Innate Abilities you acquire" applies to those acquired prior to this one.

-Shattering Strike: Useless DC

-Middle-right vertical chain (Action Boost: Attack, Weapon Meditation, Shattering Strike, Deadly Strike): I don't understand the connection between all these abilities. Why are they linked? I understand that Deadly Strike uses Attack Boost charges, so that part makes sense if you accept the need for that limitation/dependency, but how do Meditation and Shatter factor in? Were you just trying to achieve a symmetrical dependency chain with the Weapon Focus chain on the middle-left? Why should I have to go 3/3 in one to qualify for 3/3 in another?

-Ascetic Training: This should be 3 separate enhancements, allowing me to take all 3 if I desire. As it stands, Agililty is the overriding best choice, which means there is basically no choice here, just the illusion of one, beyond skipping the purchase entirely.

-Tactics: this pales to what can be gotten on live.

-Critical Damage: this pales to what can be gotten on live.

-A Good Death: Eyeballing 20% of an enemy's HP bar is not easy, nor is it a very stimulating tactic to rely on. Would prefer if the condition for this was something we could more tactically pursue, or even if it was randomized for reactive gameplay.

-One with the Blade: others have said this before, but this really needs to be very low in the tree as it is a build-defining ability. Your build is not your build until you get this.

[Taojeff]

Various Thoughts:

STALWART

-Being able to spend AP on Stalwart Stance boosts starting from level 1 when the stance doesn't actually become available until level 6 is very strange. Can you explore moving the stance to the level 3 position (at a minimum) instead? This tree feels like a waste for low-level character until the Stance becomes available, so it should really come sooner.

Agreed

-I dislike the order of the Stalwart Stance boosts. PRR is not especially useful at low levels: it shines primarily when enemies are routinely hitting you for triple digit damage. +Con/Str/Hitpoints on the other hand are quite useful at low levels, but these are currently pretty high in the tree, to the degree that maxing all 3 will require 46 points spent in the tree. More of these boosts should be side-by-side in the same row rather than stacked up in the same column, so I can more freely dabble with 1/3 in several stance boosts without running into AP-spent pre-reqs (this is another playing-while-leveling concern).

Agreed they are not stacked correctly and they are too expensive. I was able to get EVERYTHING I wanted from the Kensai tree with the same amount it takes to just max this one line.


-I dislike the chain dependency on the Stalwart Stance boosts. Being forced to go 3/3 in every single lower enhancement to go 3/3 in even one of the higher ones is pretty restrictive. Maybe I am making a soloist build, and do not to waste AP on +Threat. Maybe I feel my saves are otherwise good enough that I don't want to spend 6 AP for +3 more. Or maybe I have a legitimate use for some of these benefits, but just want the freedom to make a hard decision or experiment and put those points towards something more unique/compelling without also sacrificing 30% max hp. Surely you can come up with a better way to gate this enhancement that doesn't force me to buy stuff that I'd prefer not to.

-Stuff is generally too expensive. Any enhancement that can be purchased 3/3 times should only be 1 AP per purchase, except for +10/20/30% HP and any other /really/ powerful bonuses.

Agreed and have said on several other threads. Hitpoints should be divorced from the stalwart line altogether so that people switching from stalwart dont immediately loose 400 hitpoints to throw a scroll. Keep it as a top tier ability.

-I cannot fathom why +3 armor/shield enhancement bonus is higher in the tree than +50% armor/shield contribution.

-Counterattack is not strong enough to be worth limitation by action boosts both in terms of how this limits uses per shrine and how it excludes the use of other action boosts. As an action boost, this will have bottom priority compared to almost any other boost it shares mutual exclusivity with.

-Active Blocking is not made attractive enough for a PrE that revolves around mandatory shield use; Stalwarts do not gain any more effective defense with active blocking than anyone else that has full-BAB. Some new enhancement(s) should be added that boost Blocking DR, or attach PRR to active blocking, or maybe something more unique/iconic like being to fully absorb one hit no matter how strong per X seconds while actively blocking.

-Overbalance is not very useful, especially for the cost. If Improved Shield Bashing was not limited to 1 hit/sec, and could proc at its standard rate (20%, or 35% with relevant enh's) on cleaves, then this would become worth 2 AP when coupled with that investment. For characters not interested in that type of investment, however, this is still a mandatory waste of AP.

I disagree if this is the increase was very useful in my testing. What should be added is a small proc to stun on a shield bash higher up the train 3/5/7%

-Stand Fast is another ability that I do not want to be forced to buy, especially as an action boost that has mutual exclusivity with all the others.

Yeah its garbage.


KENSAI

-Exotic Weapon Mastery is a nonsensical tax. Spending a feat isn't enough? This should be rolled into Kensai Focus, but only function if you have the proficiency feat behind the exotic weapon you are trying to use.

-Reed in the Wind: duration of dodge buff would be too short, if it actually worked.

Agreed, 10s plus shorter cool down. Also make the ability 2[w]

-Spiritual Bond: I am unclear if the reference to "the number of Kensai Core Abilities you possess" applies to those acquired prior to this one.

This is a good ability that stacks with the core abilites (button row)

-Strike with no Thought: I am unclear if the reference to "additional Innate Abilities you acquire" applies to those acquired prior to this one.

No it does not. It is an addition too, this should start at 3% and scale up by one for each additional ability.

-Shattering Strike: Useless DC

Disagree, but should maybe be Int/Wis

-Middle-right vertical chain (Action Boost: Attack, Weapon Meditation, Shattering Strike, Deadly Strike): I don't understand the connection between all these abilities. Why are they linked? I understand that Deadly Strike uses Attack Boost charges, so that part makes sense if you accept the need for that limitation/dependency, but how do Meditation and Shatter factor in? Were you just trying to achieve a symmetrical dependency chain with the Weapon Focus chain on the middle-left? Why should I have to go 3/3 in one to qualify for 3/3 in another?

They are all abilites that you use with your signature weapon? I do not quite know, basically to me there are two many clickies in these two lines (with the weapon mastery line). Shattering Strike\Meditation are both fine and useful. The vorpal action boost thing should be changed to some kind of proc or reset tactical /ability cool down ability etc.

-Ascetic Training: This should be 3 separate enhancements, allowing me to take all 3 if I desire. As it stands, Agililty is the overriding best choice, which means there is basically no choice here, just the illusion of one, beyond skipping the purchase entirely.

Disagree. This is how it is in several trees and it further defines each individual character. I am not a big fan of, everybody does everything etc.

-Tactics: this pales to what can be gotten on live.

It is only 1 DC different. I rarely fail on line, even in EE. This will not make much difference

-Critical Damage: this pales to what can be gotten on live.

I never take more then 3 levels of this, how many are on live?


-A Good Death: Eyeballing 20% of an enemy's HP bar is not easy, nor is it a very stimulating tactic to rely on. Would prefer if the condition for this was something we could more tactically pursue, or even if it was randomized for reactive gameplay.

Turn you enemies bars on if you want to use this. I like this ability, being one of the most useful. If you do not want to pay attention in combat, I guess go play wow?

-One with the Blade: others have said this before, but this really needs to be very low in the tree as it is a build-defining ability. Your build is not your build until you get this.

Absolutely 100% disagree. This is bar none the best ability in this tree. Putting the best abilities low in the tree is game breaking, over-powered and unbalanced. Hey lets just flip all the EDs too while we are at it. Just make the best abilities available first. Ooooh do it for all the enhancement trees too, that way we can all take the best abilities from each tree, steamroll the content, get bored..all quit. Close the servers.

My comments are above. Note the sarcasm in the last reply.