The Official Dwarf Enhancements Discussion Thread!

[sephiroth1084]

Just going to comment on alternative ability score use on weapon enhancement here...

These are interesting ideas, but make little sense to put at the top of tree lines.

Basically these are build archetype abilities. These types of abilities should be quickly acquired on builds. It is NOT FUN to play a gimped build until you get the ability which makes the build viable.

The buy in cost of class level/racial choice should be sufficient for these types of abilities without the added lets require people to fritter away tons of AP and have a lame build until they get there abilities.

Agreed.

[hit_fido]

* Child of the Mountain is weak. Fortitude would already be a strong aspect of dwarves so it's really a trade between HP and reflex. Spending 6 AP for 4% max HP amounts to only 20 HP for a 500 HP character. Would like to see this changed to a toggle enhancement that can be used strategically/situationally and left as is, or if it's a permanent enhancement, then boost the HP gain to at least 2% per rank for a max of 6%, still pretty modest IMO for the -3 reflex you have to give up.

This is actually worse than I realized... pairing a percentage based increase with an absolute decrease is pretty punishing at lower levels. 4% may be only 6-8 HP at lower levels, while the corresponding -3 reflex could actually be a 20-40% drop in your reflex save.

Should be a better way to turn this into an enhancement that falls under the "dwarven sturdiness/clumsiness" theme...

[Candela90]

Bottom:
Usuefull for everyone. Good one

Tier 1:
Also seems pretty good. Even if I would find Iron Stomach usefull. It just looks perfect

Tier 2:
Dragonmark seems weak in my opinion. Others ok.

Tier 3:
O.o Good one. Seems its the best done enhancements line from what I saw today.

Tier 4:
Throw Weight
BUT... Dragonmark - Earthgrab is good one. Just once again... To succes in EE u need really at least 55+ DC ... even on reflex save. And to be usefull (considering u can use it only X timer per shrine) it would be good to make it possible to get to 62-64 DC to make it land 70% of time.
DC is not THAT bad but mainly tanks will habe it landing - 64 constitution for good DC is a lot. Id add like 15+level+cons mod.


Overall seems good. Im suprised. Others seems mess compared to this one. Well thought.

[emptysands]

Tier 2:
Dwarven Weapon Training (2ap, req Tier 1 of same type):
Axe Training: +1 to hit and damage with battle axes, dwarven waraxes, hand axes, and throwing axes. +1 to hit and +2 damage with greataxes.

Tier 4:
Axe Training: +1 to hit and damage with battle axes, dwarven waraxes, hand axes, and throwing axes. +1 to hit and +2 damage with greataxes.

Actually we have:

Tier 4:
Axe Training: +1 to hit and damage with battle axes, hand axes, and throwing axes. +1 to hit and +2 damage with dwarven waraxes and greataxes.

Plus the Tier 2 has a different description in the character sheet. Same as the Tier 4 one.

Be interesting to know if these stack with the Battle Engineer Dwarven Axe bonus.

[voodoogroves]

BUT... Dragonmark - Earthgrab is good one. Just once again... To succes in EE u need really at least 55+ DC ... even on reflex save. And to be usefull (considering u can use it only X timer per shrine) it would be good to make it possible to get to 62-64 DC to make it land 70% of time.
DC is not THAT bad but mainly tanks will habe it landing - 64 constitution for good DC is a lot. Id add like 15+level+cons mod.

I'd like things w/ DCs like that to be boost-able by feats, etc. Like maybe Sunder or Trip or Stun bonuses.

[CaptainSpacePony]

Fortress: Why does it have to be full plate? There are some named armors that I'm not sure what they count as. Does mithral full plate count, or mithral cavalry plate? (Is this a quasi-mithral unnerf?)

I assume the higher AML full plate varients count, but they aren't "full plate" strictly speaking are they?

Why not just make it heavy armor?

[maddong]

As much as I love the idea of con based hit dam... I'm not sure it is a good idea to usher in a new era of con based blitzing dwarven heal amped up favored souls wielding the great axe du jour. With one stat you get hit, dam, hp, and fortitude. A bit more powerful then dex dam on ****** weapons....

[sephiroth1084]

Character-defining abilities like using an alternate stat for attack and/or damage really need to come earlier in the character's life. This was the reasoning behind the removal of the Dex-to-attack, and Dex-to-damage enhancements in the Shadowdancer epic destiny. Why are the devs retreading here?

[Meetch1972]

Stand with stone making you sink in water is very interesting

Yes, and I fully expect to be able to walk along the ocean floor / river bed when I hit it. That 50% speed penalty would suit too.

[Deathdefy]

Is Hands of Stone identical to the TIII Earth Savant ability?

Are the cooldowns shared or can we potentially make a not-totally-gimped Con based Dwarven sorceror.

I would test myself but do not have anything close to a level 18 Dwarf Sorceror, and I'd bet no one else does either (yet!).

[aerendhil]

At first I was very impressed with "throw your weight around", but now "kobold think it's a trap..."
a con based melee toon will lack to-hit, and more importantly, will have low tactical DC.
I've learned one thing with my melee toon : a tripped or stunned enemy is the best defense you have.

[EDIT] plus, "overwhelming critical" has a STR prereq. , so no , sorry, I'm not doing a CON based toon.

[Kilbar]

So lemme get this straight... You can be a good dwarf or you can be a good fighter, but you'll only ever be a mediocre dwarven fighter. And even better! The same now applies to humans! At last, all men (and women!) really ARE created equal! Yeah, this stinks of 4E.

[Taojeff]

Absolutely agreed. It's one thing to maybe say...at the top tier, you can add 1/2 your Con bonus to damage (in addition to Str) or something like that...it's a bonus, a building up...but if you're doing a complete swap on ability scores, it's no fun to NOT play the character you want for so long.

I was going to say the full damage, but ur idea seems more balanced.

[Juduss]

Iron Stomach (1ap): +1/+2/+3 CL of potions you drink

Does this affect duration of Ardor & Alchemical stat/skill pots? Amount received from mana pots?
Also, how about the special boost pots: slayer, xp, ability, etc?

[Deamus]

IMHO Some Sugestions:

1)Core/Racial Enchantments : Should be free or Cost 1 AP the most.

2)Tier 1 abilities looks all good except tried iron stomach with haste pot and didnt work didnt increase the duration.

3)Tier 2 abilities all good except child of mountain.
Child of mountain : The hp bonus is too low nearly worthless . Raise it to 10% . Increase it to Tier 3 ability, keep the penalties.

4)Tier 3 abilities good except stand like stone . It should be tier 2 for the 20 seconds it gives. Also when you cast as the description says it doesn't give you 60 PRR but 30. Keep it ar 30 PRR make it tier 2 and Child of mountain tier 3 with 10% HP.

5)Tier 4 abilities : Dwarven fortress should remove the shield prereq .

6)Throw your weight around: Should be tier 1 , unlinked from dwarven axes & hammers. Give also bonus to hit and tactics like str. It doesn't make sense to reach high levels with a low str toon and high con toon and until then to be gimped. I only like if those changes are made else will not use it ever.

[hit_fido]

At first I was very impressed with "throw your weight around", but now "kobold think it's a trap..."
a con based melee toon will lack to-hit, and more importantly, will have low tactical DC.
I've learned one thing with my melee toon : a tripped or stunned enemy is the best defense you have.

[EDIT] plus, "overwhelming critical" has a STR prereq. , so no , sorry, I'm not doing a CON based toon.

I saw it as a potential tie in with artificer. There really should be some kind of nod to dwarven artificers as lore wise (from real D&D/WoTC) it's clear there is meant to be some synergy. With Int as to-hit and Con as damage a dwarven melee artificer can maybe be at least a viable choice though probably still in the shadow of the warforged juggernaut stuff...

But the points made have been good - putting it at the end of the tree is prohibitive to starting a build that would take advantage of it. Dumping Str has other issues like tactics DC and loss of to-hit on non-artificers.

I really like the idea though. Perhaps something like this:

Move TYWA to start at the second tier, with no pre-requisite and 1 AP cost: "use your Con bonus to determine damage; use 1/2 your Con bonus to determine to-hit and tactics DC". That way it's penalizing, but you can start early and both the bonus and penalty scale with level (as your level increases, your Con increases). The choice becomes: focus on strength, gain full to-hit/damage/tactics from the investment; focus on constitution, gain full damage but only half to-hit and tactics. That seems like a reasonable trade off that only some kind of builds would find optimal.

[budalic]

As much as I love the idea of con based hit dam... I'm not sure it is a good idea to usher in a new era of con based blitzing dwarven heal amped up favored souls wielding the great axe du jour. With one stat you get hit, dam, hp, and fortitude. A bit more powerful then dex dam on ****** weapons....

Um, what ***** weapons? Balizarde is top one-handed weapon in game atm, and celestia is also very nice.

[Dilbon]

Is Hands of Stone identical to the TIII Earth Savant ability?

Are the cooldowns shared or can we potentially make a not-totally-gimped Con based Dwarven sorceror.

I would test myself but do not have anything close to a level 18 Dwarf Sorceror, and I'd bet no one else does either (yet!).

Actually I have a con based dwarf earth savant, but testing can't be done yet as the sorcerer enhancement trees are not available.

[psteen1]

Character-defining abilities like using an alternate stat for attack and/or damage really need to come earlier in the character's life. This was the reasoning behind the removal of the Dex-to-attack, and Dex-to-damage enhancements in the Shadowdancer epic destiny. Why are the devs retreading here?

I agree. I would love to play a con based dwarf. I think that would be awesome. But having this ability at the top would basically FORCE me to lesser rez after I get high enough level... Start off life as a strength build and then completely re'spec as a con build. I don't think that forcing lesser rezzing is a good design plan.

That being said, I would be extremely disappointed if the ability was removed altogether. Please keep it in there, only lower it's tree position!

[oweieie]

* Iron Stomach is a nice flavor enhancement consistent with Dwarven archetype.

No, it has a cute quote, it is extremely inconsistent with dwarven magic resistance. It is of course an alcohol reference and if you stop to think about it for a second they're saying dwarves have trained themselves to get drunk faster. I don't know about you, but I never thought of dwarves as a cheap date.

* Throw Your Weight Around is creative and intriguing, but only costs 1 AP while the four step prereq line to get there each requires 2 AP. Make it cost 2 AP as well.

Con for weapon damage is silly.