The Official Dwarf Enhancements Discussion Thread!

[Fecerak]

Tried making a stalwart defender con based dwarf - Was actually kind of cool (although lack of decent daxes wasn't too cool). Ended up being really tanky, while still doing decent damage in S&B. Only main issue was that I couldn't get even nearly all the stuff I wanted, even though I dumped the entire kensei tree. But that is mostly about stalwart defender being way too expensive, so meh.

[hit_fido]

No, it has a cute quote, it is extremely inconsistent with dwarven magic resistance. It is of course an alcohol reference and if you stop to think about it for a second they're saying dwarves have trained themselves to get drunk faster. I don't know about you, but I never thought of dwarves as a cheap date.

That's one read; another is that they're saying dwarven robustness and constitution are such that they inherently filter out the negative qualities of that which they consume, and can utilize the positive qualities to a greater extent than other races. I definitely do not see how it's implied that they get drunk faster.

Con for weapon damage is silly.

"Throw your weight around" implies that damage bonus comes from the application of one's bulk and body mass rather than a controlled application of arm/shoulder strength. Doesn't seem that silly for me, at least not any sillier than half orcs actually getting stronger than weaker when they've lost half or more of their health. But apparently that race gets stronger when they've bled out 75% and now dwarves can apparently throw their stocky forms into each blow as a means to do damage instead of using their stubby little arms, ok?

[oweieie]

"Throw your weight around" implies that damage bonus comes from the application of one's bulk and body mass rather than a controlled application of arm/shoulder strength.

First off, bulk isn't con. They have no relation.
Second, on the scale of mass in DnD, dwarves are WAAAAY far down the list.
Third, fat doesn't throw itself around, it is an application of strength.
Fourth, leverage, dwarves are lucky they don't take small size penalties already. That is pretty much them throwing their weight around, not getting the small size penalty.

It is nonsensical and inconsistent. I hit harder because I'm an 80 pound Ethiopian guy with 20 con who runs super marathons! RAAAAR! I hit harder than the 250 pound half orc because I'm a 150 pound dwarf with stumpy arms! RAAAR!

[IronClan]

Where's the Defender racial PrE in all this?

I love Throw your weight around... as a tier 1.. Make it scale up or give it a higher tier increase, so that as others have said; we don't need to be gimps for 15 or 20 levels before we can use our con based builds.

[IronClan]

First off, bulk isn't con. They have no relation.
Second, on the scale of mass in DnD, dwarves are WAAAAY far down the list.
Third, fat doesn't throw itself around, it is an application of strength.
Fourth, leverage, dwarves are lucky they don't take small size penalties already. That is pretty much them throwing their weight around, not getting the small size penalty.

Fifth: DDO is a Fantasy game, full of archtypes and tropes, Dwarves in D&D and most fantasy literature are extra "Strudy" and "Stout", in fact in many cases they are actually described as having "more mass than their small stature should hold" They are usually hard to knock over, they are almost always bad swimmers in fantasy and often hate boats. because they are sometimes so "dense" they sink.

Six: Mass does not necessarilly have any relation to volume. Pick up a gold bar and tell me something small can't be massive..

Seven: it's magic, you lose.

[oweieie]

Seven: it's magic, you lose.

Eight: GMs who say "it makes no sense, but it works that way because I say so" don't have players.

[IronClan]

Eight: GMs who say "it makes no sense, but it works that way because I say so" don't have players.

I DM'd for about 2 decades in regular groups, trust me, people who got twisted up regularly over verisimilitude based on real life stuff, are almost universally "accidently not invited back" and then made fun of the next session.

[Gremmlynn]

"Throw your weight around" implies that damage bonus comes from the application of one's bulk and body mass rather than a controlled application of arm/shoulder strength. Doesn't seem that silly for me, at least not any sillier than half orcs actually getting stronger than weaker when they've lost half or more of their health. But apparently that race gets stronger when they've bled out 75% and now dwarves can apparently throw their stocky forms into each blow as a means to do damage instead of using their stubby little arms, ok?

Well, outside of the game offering many more ways to boost their stubby little arms than their weight and the fact that one must spend 25% of their total AP's, including an entire racial weapons line, just for the chance to use their con for damage. That makes sense. But as implemented, it's pretty silly.

Put it in at tier 1 and my wizard might grab it if he has an extra AP.

[Gremmlynn]

I DM'd for about 2 decades in regular groups, trust me, people who got twisted up regularly over verisimilitude based on real life stuff, are almost universally "accidently not invited back" and then made fun of the next session.

At the same time, DMs who jump the shark by throwing logic completely out the window also tend to not have those they invite back accept.

[hit_fido]

Well, outside of the game offering many more ways to boost their stubby little arms than their weight and the fact that one must spend 25% of their total AP's, including an entire racial weapons line, just for the chance to use their con for damage. That makes sense. But as implemented, it's pretty silly.

Put it in at tier 1 and my wizard might grab it if he has an extra AP.

Sure, the points about placement in the tree and earlier accessibility are very good. But I'm not going to worry about whether Con as damage makes any more or less logical/physical sense than repeater rogues Int damage or quarterstave dex damage or why some weapons use Cha for damage etc etc, especially in a fantasy simulation derived from a ruleset made so people with pencils, graph paper and plastic dice could navigate it.

It's a cool thematic twist, something NEW with potential for FUN if the implementation is improved. While there are many problems in the overall enhancement pass as seen thus far, new ideas with interesting implications for different build approaches are definitely not something I'm going to reject.

[SealedInSong]

Tier 4:
Hands of Stone (?ap, req Greater Dragonmark): Greater Dragonmark Spell: Earthgrab, reflex DC 10+level+con modifier
Dwarf Fortress (1ap, req Stand Like Stone): While wearing full plate and using a shield, you gain +1/+2/+3 AC, Intim, and will saving throws vs Fear, and deal 3%/5%/7% additional weapon damage.
Dwarven Weapon Training (2ap, req Tier 3 of same type):
Axe Training: +1 to hit and damage with battle axes, dwarven waraxes, hand axes, and throwing axes. +1 to hit and +2 damage with greataxes.
Pick and Hammer training: +1 to hit and damage with heavy picks, light hammer, light picks, mauls*, throwing hammers, and warhammers. +1 to hit and +2 damage with mauls (I think mauls inclusion in the +1 damage line is a typo)
Throw your weight around (2ap, req Tier 4 of same type Dwarven Weapon Training):
Axe: Use Con modifier for damage with (all axes)
pick and hammer: Use Con modifier for damage with (all picks/hammers)

I've been wanting to make another earth savant but I just have too many casters. This fits the bill, and way above my expectations. Thanks for transcribing this.

+1

[SealedInSong]

Iron Stomach (1ap): +1/+2/+3 CL of potions you drink

Does this affect duration of Ardor & Alchemical stat/skill pots? Amount received from mana pots?
Also, how about the special boost pots: slayer, xp, ability, etc?

So if you can find any documentation about that, I don't think they would've crafted wholly different code for this.

[CaptainPurge]

Where's the Defender racial PrE in all this?

That was my first thought as well. Then I decided, it's just alpha, and they may be holding back on introducing it later.

Can we get a dev confirmation on this?

[IronClan]

At the same time, DMs who jump the shark by throwing logic completely out the window also tend to not have those they invite back accept.

Briefly I don't think jump the shark means what you think it does. And since 1979 I've not met 1 DM who had a hard time finding players who would come back, however I have known players who no one wanted to play with because they spent all night interrupting play. Regardless, It's fantasy and stout Dwarves and magic are both "a thing".

[IronClan]

That was my first thought as well. Then I decided, it's just alpha, and they may be holding back on introducing it later.

Can we get a dev confirmation on this?

(Edit) I see over in Drow, that the race PrE's are mostly not hooked up yet. According to Varg.

[Deamus]

Throw your weight around is useless if does not have to hit also and be Tier 1 ability .
Noone will ever use it. Because low str, con based builds will have huge problems hitting. Tested a bit on my paladin which I lred to Con base and saw way too many misses.

[emptysands]

That was my first thought as well. Then I decided, it's just alpha, and they may be holding back on introducing it later.

Can we get a dev confirmation on this?

Yeah not all the racial PrEs are in yet. That was the reply I got during the DevChat event.

[IronClan]

Throw your weight around is useless if does not have to hit also and be Tier 1 ability .
Noone will ever use it. Because low str, con based builds will have huge problems hitting. Tested a bit on my paladin which I lred to Con base and saw way too many misses.

I think they don't intend it to be something you focus a build on. I think its more for the odd Pali and battle Cleric that has higher con than STR, but still has decent to hit from say 28 str and + to hit items.

Before I respeced I had a Pali with more con than STR decided I didn't need 1000 hps and it was hurting the already meh DPS that Pali's have. That build would have had roughly 4 more damage using con (something like 36 con to 28 str. In DOS stance) This was back a while before +8 items and before I had the gear for the exceptional STR stuff, in fact was working on Dragon touched FP as "end game armor" with leviks etc.

In any case, yeah I don't think this is intended as a min/maxed build option. But a bone thrown to dwarven Pali's and maybe Bards and clerics that have more con than STR As such I am all for it. Obviously the min max line here will be "time to LR" but I don't think that's fair or very honest, because "melee" secondary builds may not be optimal, but they do exist. There are plenty of players who will use this as a DPS boost to their overly HP rich Warchanter or battle cleric. And with lots of toughness ranks going bye bye, maxing CON on a dwarf is actually going to be more of a thing.

[Deamus]

I think they don't intend it to be something you focus a build on. I think its more for the odd Pali and battle Cleric that has higher con than STR, but still has decent to hit from say 28 str and + to hit items.

Before I respeced I had a Pali with more con than STR decided I didn't need 1000 hps and it was hurting the already meh DPS that Pali's have. That build would have had roughly 4 more damage using con (something like 36 con to 28 str. In DOS stance) This was back a while before +8 items and before I had the gear for the exceptional STR stuff, in fact was working on Dragon touched FP as "end game armor" with leviks etc.

In any case, yeah I don't think this is intended as a min/maxed build option. But a bone thrown to dwarven Pali's and maybe Bards and clerics that have more con than STR As such I am all for it. Obviously the min max line here will be "time to LR" but I don't think that's fair or very honest, because "melee" secondary builds may not be optimal, but they do exist. There are plenty of players who will use this as a DPS boost to their overly HP rich Warchanter or battle cleric. And with lots of toughness ranks going bye bye, maxing CON on a dwarf is actually going to be more of a thing.

But we do not know what is the developer's intent.

It would be interesting to see dwarfs with max con low str and there will be way more build choices .
Either way so as to balance it bit more just add only to hit and not dc for tactics.Whichever melee uses tactics will not go max con but instead will prefer str path.

Also , regarding your view , if those are developer's intentions it doesn't justify why it is so costly and top tier ability . It should be lower Tier 1 or Tier 2 max whatever their intentions.

The whole tree has good abilities and with nice ideas , but most of them need some buf to worth it. Throw your weight around is weak at its current implementation imho.
Also Child of the Mountain give way too few hp percentage considering the big penalty on reflex (-3) .

PS: Compare with human and Half elf racial enchantments also , dwarf enchantments are way to weak if they dont buf them except the axe line which is great.

[OverlordOfRats]

Change the Dwarven Weapon Training to

Tier 1

Dwarven Weapon Training (2ap, choose one)(1/2/3)
Axe Training: +1 to-hit and damage with battle axes, dwarven waraxes, hand axes, greataxes, and throwing axes
Pick and Hammer training: +1 to-hit and damage with heavy picks, light hammer, light picks, mauls, throwing hammers, and warhammers

Tier 2

Dwarven Weapon Proficiency (2ap, choose one):
Axe Proficiency: Proficient with battle axes, dwarven waraxes, hand axes, greataxes, and throwing axes
Pick and Hammer Proficiency: Proficient with heavy picks, light hammer, light picks, mauls, throwing hammers, and warhammers

Tier 3

Dwarven Weapon Training (2ap, choose one)(1/2/3) cannot be the same as Tier 1
Axe Training: +1 to-hit and damage with battle axes, dwarven waraxes, hand axes, greataxes, and throwing axes
Pick and Hammer training: +1 to-hit and damage with heavy picks, light hammer, light picks, mauls, throwing hammers, and warhammers

Tier 4

Dwarven Weapon Proficiency (2ap, choose one): cannot be the same as Tier 2
Axe Proficiency: Proficient with battle axes, dwarven waraxes, hand axes, greataxes, and throwing axes
Pick and Hammer Proficiency: Proficient with heavy picks, light hammer, light picks, mauls, throwing hammers, and warhammers


EDIT: Forgot these.

Child of the Mountain (2ap): +2%/3%/4% to maximum health, +1/+2/+3 to Fort saves, -1/-2/-3 to Reflex saves

Remove the Reflex penalty it is too great for what is gained. +2%/3%/4% health on a character with 1000 HP is +20/+30/+40 HP and with 500 HP is +10/+15/+20 HP. The plus to Fort Saves is nice but not at the cost to Reflex on a race that has other ways to increase Fort.


Dwarf Fortress (1ap, req Stand Like Stone): While wearing full plate and using a shield, you gain +1/+2/+3 AC, Intim, and will saving throws vs Fear, and deal 3%/5%/7% additional weapon damage.

Change Full Plate to Heavy Armor. Change AC value to +2/4/6 or even +3/6/9 keep the rest as is. It may be too complicated to break the AC apart from the Intim and saving throw, but under the current AC system +1/2/3 is not very much for a Tier 4 ability.