Lamannia Update: EARLY Enhancements Preview

[bhgiant]

...and it begins.

...finally

...is that the sound of Angels singing?

Yes my child, yes it is.

Although which angels we have yet to find out.

Edit: on a side note, my client is now downloading the update

[Blayster]

I think it would be great if you could provide a text preview of everything as it stands now - get people chewing over it and so forth.

In the meantime I guess I will go sort out the Lama client the LOTRO distro a while back broke

Wondering, have you got Lammania to work under Linux? If so, how come? The installer does not seem to work here (also the installer for DDO, but there is a workaround for that that I've never found for Lammania...)

[Xilth]

Wondering, have you got Lammania to work under Linux? If so, how come? The installer does not seem to work here (also the installer for DDO, but there is a workaround for that that I've never found for Lammania...)

Problem with Lamannia (or normal DDO) and linux is Pando (aplication which is used to download installation files), wine will crash when it trays to use it, but when you have got all installation files... installation works flawlessly... just run setup, change files directory in pyLotro, patch and play.

To install lamannia on linux you need to get game files in some other way then regular download with Pando, like copying files from windows instalation. I made my lamania client to run with little help from VirtualBox (Win XP virtual machine) which i use for other stuff... i just downloaded all files with virtual machine, then i have instaled them with wine the same way as normal DDO.

I realy wish there where other ways then Pando to get installation files... right now to run DDO on linux the hardest part isn't making it run but geting instalation files

[Vargouille]

Regarding Toughness enhancements:

We've taken out most of the racial toughness enhancements. We had previously found that the Toughness feat was considered mandatory by many players and wanted to make it more of a choice than before.

Instead, we've added +5 HP to Heroic Durability, a feat that all characters start with at level 1. Characters also gain +5 HP when you taking the 5th, 10th, and 15th class levels for any class. That's tied to class levels, not character levels, at this time.

[Cap_Man]

Regarding Toughness enhancements:

We've taken out most of the racial toughness enhancements. We had previously found that Toughness was considered mandatory by many players and wanted to make it more of a choice than before.

Instead, we've added +5 HP to Heroic Durability, a feat that all characters start with at level 1. Characters also gain +5 HP when you taking the 5th, 10th, and 15th class levels for any class. That's tied to class levels, not character levels, at this time.

Ok, I'll bite

How does 'taking out most of the racial toughness enchancements' make it 'more of a choice than before'?

[AlteredState]

Who knows, but I think I get more hp from my class/racial toughness now than I will with the new system. I usally run a human 12fight/6rng/2rog


30-40 from fighter and another 30 from being human. so 60-70 total

Looking at this I would get 20 from the Heroic Durability thing and that is it. Unless I am messing up and am horrifically mistaken.

[IronClan]

Regarding Toughness enhancements:

We've taken out most of the racial toughness enhancements. We had previously found that Toughness was considered mandatory by many players and wanted to make it more of a choice than before.

Instead, we've added +5 HP to Heroic Durability, a feat that all characters start with at level 1. Characters also gain +5 HP when you taking the 5th, 10th, and 15th class levels for any class. That's tied to class levels, not character levels, at this time.

So I'm confused, how is giving some classes 15 free HP's and taking away elective toughness enhancements "more of a choice"?

I believe that's actually less of a choice?

Also this game really needs less extreme divergences from the PnP source material. I don't know how many of you guys played Neverwinter Nights, but it's so far the best D&D multiplayer video game ever made probably the most successful sales wise and it's also usually cited as the most faithful rules translation ever... These things aren't coincidental.

Many of DDO's biggest problems that were later fixed with kludgy non D&D systems are actually a direct result of poor PnP rules translation, as directly contrasted in NWN. An example: "Zerging" you fixed it with "Dungeon Alert" NWN "fixed it" by having a proper implimentation of "Attacks of Opportunity" so it never needed to "fix it" in the first place. Or how about Two weapon fighting? In DDO the reversed attack progression and incorrectly implemented TWF rules cause it to be too powerful. So instead of correcting the poorly translated rule and making the attack progression correctly descend in hit chance, you made up "Double strike" and nerfed off hand attacks. A good rules translation never has the problem in the first place, and never needs the kludge.

I realize that toughness enhancements are non PnP but they at least fit the flavor of the feat and are sort of an extension of them and are choices that can be made... this 5th 10th 15th thing is just arbitrary. There's no choice to it. Why not just give an extra 1hp per class level... it's the same thing.

[Ovrad]

Ok, I'll bite

How does 'taking out most of the racial toughness enchancements' make it 'more of a choice than before'?

You're looking at it the wrong way. Think of it as you get 20 hp for free now, without absolutely having to take the toughness feat. That means that skipping the feat is more viable now, while tank-ish types can still invest in more hp if they want.

[decease]

ill be surely to buy collector edition again, for next expansion.. if you guys really get this done before/when next expansion release..

[AlteredState]

You're looking at it the wrong way. Think of it as you get 20 hp for free now, without absolutely having to take the toughness feat. That means that skipping the feat is more viable now, while tank-ish types can still invest in more hp if they want.

But they are not talking about the feat, they are talking about the enhancements. Most people would still take the feat anyway as it is cumulative with this bonus(probably).

[Ryiah]

it's so far the best D&D multiplayer video game ever made probably the most successful sales wise and it's also usually cited as the most faithful rules translation ever... These things aren't coincidental.

Neverwinter Nights and DDO are not the same type of game. NWN is a single/multi-player game with up to 64 players (NWN2 at least, no idea about the original). DDO is a massively multiplayer online game with potential for thousands of online players. It also is not one-time sale like NWN2 which relied on selling the base game and expansions. DDO has multiple streams of income.

At this stage in DDO's history you have options somewhere between spending nothing and spending as much as you want. That is a huge difference compared to NWN2 where the only options were to buy the base game and the expansions. No additional sources of income for NWN.

An example: "Zerging" you fixed it with "Dungeon Alert" NWN "fixed it" by having a proper implimentation of "Attacks of Opportunity" so it never needed to "fix it" in the first place.

Do you even understand why "Dungeon Alert" exists? Turbine doesn't actually care if you attempt to zerg a quest for the sake of faster completion. They care because it increases server load. Every time you reach a new enemy in a dungeon it "activates" with regards to the player. Until it is "deactivated" for whatever reason it adds to the server load.

Which would be less of a load do you think? Players handling a few enemies at once? Or handling a dozen or more?

I realize that toughness enhancements are non PnP but they at least fit the flavor of the feat and are sort of an extension of them and are choices that can be made... this 5th 10th 15th thing is just arbitrary.

The concept is that Toughness has become so popular with the player base that it has essentially become mandatory for practically every character. Most of the time when I hear discussions related to it in-game it is one player stating they didn't take it and every other player claiming they made a bad choice.

[Ovrad]

But they are not talking about the feat, they are talking about the enhancements. Most people would still take the feat anyway as it is cumulative with this bonus(probably).

I know, but the enhancements required the feat before. So taken the toughness feat was giving you at least 60 hp total, which was pretty much required for everyone.

Now everyone has higher hp, and taking the feat still gives you a bonus. Certain enhancements still boost you, but it's not available to everyone, which means a lot of builds can invest more in other things instead.

TL,DR: It's less cookie-cutter than before.

[IronClan]

You're looking at it the wrong way. Think of it as you get 20 hp for free now, without absolutely having to take the toughness feat. That means that skipping the feat is more viable now, while tank-ish types can still invest in more hp if they want.

Doesn't that seem like whole lot of power creep?

[Vargouille]

We're planning to simplify Spell Criticals and made them more effective early in the game.

We've removed Spell Critical Damage bonuses in general, but there are still many sources of Spell Critical Chance (including enhancements and items). When you score a critical with a spell, you now deal +100% damage, increased from the old base of +50%. We may introduce some temporary bonuses that increase this to +200% or higher, but we felt that the added complexity of adding 25% here and there wasn't justified.

The Magical Training feat, which most spellcasting classes get at level 1, grants +5% spell critical chance. This means most casters at level 1 have a 5% chance to deal +100% damage.

We have not yet done a pass on items for this change but they will be brought in line with these changes.

[oradafu]

Regarding Toughness enhancements:

We've taken out most of the racial toughness enhancements. We had previously found that the Toughness feat was considered mandatory by many players and wanted to make it more of a choice than before.

Instead, we've added +5 HP to Heroic Durability, a feat that all characters start with at level 1. Characters also gain +5 HP when you taking the 5th, 10th, and 15th class levels for any class. That's tied to class levels, not character levels, at this time.

So staying pure as a class results in less HP than doing a multi-class split of 10/5/5 or 15/5? Granted, it's only 5 HP and those two splits aren't exactly optimum currently live. We haven't seen all the enhancements (and they aren't concerete yet) so those mutliclass splits might become standard in the future.

[Gimpinator]

We're planning to simplify Spell Criticals and made them more effective early in the game.

We've removed Spell Critical Damage bonuses in general, but there are still may sources of Spell Critical Chance. When you score a critical with a spell, you now deal +100% damage, increased from the old base of +50%. We may introduce some temporary bonuses that increase this to +200% or higher, but we felt that the added complexity of adding 25% here and there wasn't justified.

The Magical Training feat, which most spellcasting classes get at level 1, grants +5% spell critical chance. This means most casters at level 1 have a 5% chance to deal +100% damage.

We have not yet done a pass on items for this change but they will be brought in line with these changes.

I wish you had all the information regarding this change.

[IronClan]

Neverwinter Nights and DDO are not the same type of game. NWN is a single/multi-player game with up to 64 players (NWN2 at least, no idea about the original). DDO is a massively multiplayer online game with potential for thousands of online players.

This is an old argument around here, a persistent world in NWN often had more players playing in the same area concurrently fighting/questing and interacting in dungeons and public areas than DDO... Picking pockets, PvP'ing questing in the same dungeon, having a DM lead event in larger areas often with FAR more than 6 or 12 people. The "massive" part of DDO is a chimera. You and I have literally never fought anything more dangerous than a training dummy with more than 12 people in the instance. But that's besides the point, the combat rules in each game are fundamentally similar and can be contrasted. NWN had real time 3d combat, though it was not as FPS like in the controls, that hardly matters, the great rules translation managed to avoid a bunch of foibles that DDO has made up all sort of silly MMO mechanics to try and deal with.

Do you even understand why "Dungeon Alert" exists? Turbine doesn't actually care if you attempt to zerg a quest for the sake of faster completion. They care because it increases server load.

That is exactly what I think DA was put in for, no idea why you think I don't get that.

The point is that NWN never had the problem, not because you couldn't run past mobs and activate a train of server crippling AI entities (you could)... but because running past mobs generally got you dead very fast, because they got attacks of opportunity on your unprotected back. So very few people tried to do it.

The concept is that Toughness has become so popular with the player base that it has essentially become mandatory for practically every character. Most of the time when I hear discussions related to it in-game it is one player stating they didn't take it and every other player claiming they made a bad choice.

I get the concept, I don't get how giving HP's out at 5th 10th and 15th makes for "choice", it seems like they are changing stuff just for the sake of changing stuff, a phenomenon that is not unheard of in MMO's where the Dev team sees turn over, and each one sometimes feel the need to put their own mark on things. Sometimes changes are good, sometimes they are harsh but needed (Like Dunegon Alert, although attacks of opportunity and a stamina bar would have been a better solution IMO) and sometimes they are arbitrary and inexplicable...

[Tid12]

We're planning to simplify Spell Criticals and made them more effective early in the game.

We've removed Spell Critical Damage bonuses in general, but there are still may sources of Spell Critical Chance. When you score a critical with a spell, you now deal +100% damage, increased from the old base of +50%. We may introduce some temporary bonuses that increase this to +200% or higher, but we felt that the added complexity of adding 25% here and there wasn't justified.

The Magical Training feat, which most spellcasting classes get at level 1, grants +5% spell critical chance. This means most casters at level 1 have a 5% chance to deal +100% damage.

We have not yet done a pass on items for this change but they will be brought in line with these changes.

I don't understand this. On live, the Spell crit damage is 50% base sure, but it can be increased to 125% damage and 9% to actually crit with enhancements.

With what you just said, we will deal +100% damage on crit with no way to increase it through enhancements (-25% from live) and we have just a 5% Spell critical chance (9% on live).

Complexity of adding 25% here and there? What complexity? The previous enhancements were pretty straight-forward.

Couple this change with the Spellcraft skill and we are looking at a serious nerf for every arcane and divines out there. You either buff that critical chance to 20% or you better fix this in some other way. AND NO, WITH "FIX IT" I DON'T MEAN BY GIVING US TEMPORARY BUFFS THAT LAST 2 SECONDS.

[IronClan]

We're planning to simplify Spell Criticals and made them more effective early in the game.

We've removed Spell Critical Damage bonuses in general, but there are still may sources of Spell Critical Chance. When you score a critical with a spell, you now deal +100% damage, increased from the old base of +50%. We may introduce some temporary bonuses that increase this to +200% or higher, but we felt that the added complexity of adding 25% here and there wasn't justified.

The Magical Training feat, which most spellcasting classes get at level 1, grants +5% spell critical chance. This means most casters at level 1 have a 5% chance to deal +100% damage.

We have not yet done a pass on items for this change but they will be brought in line with these changes.

So more less choices? This is starting to sound less like a "pass" and more like a total redesign of character customization.

[Ovrad]

With what you just said, we will deal +100% damage on crit with no way to increase it through enhancements (-25% from live) and we have just a 5% Spell critical chance (9% on live).

He said you start with 5% crit chance and it will still be able to upgrade it through items (and enhancements?). The crit damage is the ones that seems nerfed, but crit chance are buffed from what I understand.