Divines: why do so many others know our role?

[Starla70]

I think its pretty simple:
1. If youre on your own you can do whatever you want.
2. If youre in my group and took a healing spot then I would expect you to heal.
3. Otherwise, you can take a spot that the DPS guys were going to take - but I would expect you to actually be able to DPS.

Beyond that, does any of it really matter?

+1 Nothing ticks me off more then someone taking a heal spot and refusing to heal in the quest.

QUOTE=Braegan;4977285]I'll say this,

A divine heals better, stronger and more efficient than any other class, twist, favor reward, etc. What is wrong with expecting a class to bring it's strongest attribute to the group?[/QUOTE]

+1 have to agree.

QUOTE=Braegan;4977285]I'll say this,

A divine heals better, stronger and more efficient than any other class, twist, favor reward, etc. What is wrong with expecting a class to bring it's strongest attribute to the group?[/QUOTE]

+1

There is a long history to the Cleric. I just don't agree with what they have become and would like to play the class as I want. That really is the bottom line. I think that each of us has the right to find like minded groups as play the game and the quests as we wish. I can't say I really care if my game play bothers you, I can say if yours bothers me, I simply will not play with you again. Which you also have the right to do.

[mobrien316]

There's a big difference between a divine refusing to heal (which I almost never see) and a divine who would like to see other players using a little strategy and intelligence instead of playing like morons and assuming the divine will just spam heals at them every few seconds.

A person with a cleric will say that they'd like to see people with some fortification, with some resistances, with some AC and PRR, and who use some intelligence in their game, such as by not standing in the middle of a trap, or by not running three rooms ahead of the group, or by actually drinking a Remove Curse pot when they get cursed. The substandard player responds with the straw man argument that any cleric that refused to heal is a horrible player. And, in this case, he says any time there's a soul stone it is because the divine is a bad player.

[firemedium_jt]

Yeah.

This needs to be said.

My first instinct during gameplay is if things don't go well is to change something to get it done. The problem is a healer is probably the first one to realize this and throw up a red flag. I have to reel a party in on many an occasion even sometimes after considerable planning and communication especially if I am apprehensive about the players and the quest difficulty. Every party and player is different unless you run with the same people all the time, but what is the challenge in that, and I personally don't have the schedule and the time for it.

Now I like to play my clerics a certain way, and sometimes I just can't. Now if you suck I am not going to let that ruin my gameplay. I might drink a pot to compensate for you or even me, but not if I don't feel like it. Now 'suck' is a subjective term.

You might suck cause your build sucks.
You might suck cause you don't know the quest.
You might suck cause you are in over your head in a quest.
You might suck cause you gameplay and techniques suck.

And finally I will say you might suck cause I suck. That is why you hate me when I 'let' you die. I just was not fast enough, and good enough to heal you?

Or did I let you die cause your red bar drops faster than everyone else? And guess who gets to decide whether your red bar is what it should be in size and rate of drop. Well that would be me the healer for probably too many builds.

And guess what.... sometimes I 'the cleric' die. More than once! Big @%^ deal. I just look at it as a sign that I am pushing my build to the limits. Most of the time someone has greensteel or a raise scroll. lol.

Ok now that that is out there. Lets just have fun. Seriously. If you want perfection and prediction in a quest go read a fantasy story, and read the book twice. It is the same the second time you do. Though you might pick up on more of the story

[Charononus]

You do realize you can fulfill 90% of the damage a divine can pull while keeping a party alive, correct? Sure, it requires a lot more concentration, but you get the best of both worlds. You get to play your DPS build and the group gets the benefit of a divine who doesn't let them die. Win-win, no?

Soulstones are created when selfish players join raids/quests looking for divines for the purpose that they keep people alive, not necessarily so they heal bot, but so that they at the very least heal people and make deaths not happen.

A soulstone is the direct result of a divine being a bad player.

New players can't afford the 100k+ plat price it takes to run the entire prevention mill of potions and in any case, your spell points regenerate where as the potions do not. That is simply divines being lazy, self-centered, and sporting a god complex as so many seem to do.

Really I did, I didn't have stacks of 100, but I had 20+ on me which is enough for most content.

You do realize you can fulfill 90% of the damage a divine can pull while keeping a party alive, correct? Sure, it requires a lot more concentration, but you get the best of both worlds. You get to play your DPS build and the group gets the benefit of a divine who doesn't let them die. Win-win, no?

If all that is required is masses and the ocassional burst great, but sadly that's not what happens you get players that want you to cure everything for them. You yourself are wanting that in the earlier quote.

There's a big difference between a divine refusing to heal (which I almost never see) and a divine who would like to see other players using a little strategy and intelligence instead of playing like morons and assuming the divine will just spam heals at them every few seconds.

A person with a cleric will say that they'd like to see people with some fortification, with some resistances, with some AC and PRR, and who use some intelligence in their game, such as by not standing in the middle of a trap, or by not running three rooms ahead of the group, or by actually drinking a Remove Curse pot when they get cursed. The substandard player responds with the straw man argument that any cleric that refused to heal is a horrible player. And, in this case, he says any time there's a soul stone it is because the divine is a bad player.

Yup and this is why it's just not worth playing divines anymore, you get ______ on by pugs over and over again. It's far easier to create a jugg, wf sorc, pm, ext self heal yourself and not worry about it. It's not just new players either. I've seen people with esos's and red scale doing the same thing to heavily splashed drunk builds when they run ahead aggro the entire ice island in von6 without fom resist fireshield ext then refuse to drink any potion as they're getting hammered.

[susiedupfer]

People like you are the reason I will soon no longer have any divines.

People like him are exactly why I no longer have divines. And we are not alone. Every single day I receive a tell from some divine who says, "I now understand why you no longer want to play clerics."(I used to have NOTHING but clerics.) And then we have 1 fewer divine. Every. Single. Day.

[Karavek]

I fail to grasp how you've come to this conclusion other than being uninformed. In fact the classes in WoW are far more flexible than in DDO, and in general classes in WoW are more flexible. DDO essentially has 2 roles, damage dealers and healers, where as WoW has a third role(tanking).

Divines who don't heal are simply gimp characters, where as the 'healing' classes in WoW all have different builds they can play competitively. It would be like building a divine that sacrifices their healing capabilities immensely to pull 95ish% of the damage of a full DPS build. This is simply impossible in DDO, you cannot make a divine that does this because the mechanical gaps are impossible to overcome.

As to the mention of pnp, this isn't pnp, nor will it ever be. You'll never be able to match the flexibility of a DM with scripted quests, and attempts to blur the line would only be bad for the game.



I'm a little confused, if you don't want to conform to the general consensus of players when you join a group, why not just go solo the content? Play with friends who don't expect you to heal? Isn't giving the class up ruining your fun in the same manner people expecting you to fulfill the only role your class is good at is?

You do realize you can fulfill 90% of the damage a divine can pull while keeping a party alive, correct? Sure, it requires a lot more concentration, but you get the best of both worlds. You get to play your DPS build and the group gets the benefit of a divine who doesn't let them die. Win-win, no?

You clearly dont get the idea of a self ehaling point man taking aggro and kicking ass. Nor do you grasp your idea of mechanical advantages a barb has is critically offset to the point of absurdity by their handycaps as that is all mana sponges ever are for a group. Nor do you grasp again that expecting one player to have to play at a higher concetration level then the others as you put it is fair. Guess what more people play casual then hard core, most people log on wanting to have fun, pugging used to be about that in MMO but not in DDO no not ever here for those who dare to try and playa divine outside of closed ranks. People like you just want to have it easy, and frankly i doubt you have a divine, in fact i call you a liar trying to use this false hood in some weak attempt to claim a semblance of knowledge on a topic your psots frequently prove time and again you just dont grasp. I Have answered time and again in threads to you the fact a divine based clonkcher was easy to make and fill the role of DPS abd if they care to be enough to heal a raid with the help ofa second similar build which for anything short of EE will be more then enough devoted healing and if there are serious DPS the raid wont take long enough to notice. If EE well few if any good enough for EE actually need much healing from others anymore, one of the great thing about actual end game builds now most all are smart enough to twist in useful tricks like rejuve caccoon which is an amazing power if you also have other forms of mititgation and maybe a few spot heal tricks.

The simple fact is your wrong, have been wrong in every post you make, look silly beyond compare, and if you had played a real cleric would have been familiar with the well renowned and long requested by many cleric player to be stickied thread "The Path to enlightenment" which although it definatly speaks of healing, it also speaks of the days when a divine reaches the point where as the great Kyle Reese once said " Come with me if you want to live!" A well made divine warrior is the stuff of legends, the mana sponge the stuff of ignore lists.My own reached its max of them long ago.

[Kalari]

While its awesome some of you are still talking your view points, this thread really showed me the kind of attitude clerics face from the boards, maybe I am playing guild only or soloing a bit to much but I can tell you this if I pug its byoh like it don't like it it doesnt matter because the game is big enough for all play styles.

what really saddens me is the amount of posters who keep claiming clerics can't do things. We shouldn't have to brag about our capabilities after years of studying the class and figuring out what works for our builds.

I am pretty sure if any of you ran with Moops who has posted or even myself and watched us use our damage spells and or nuke when appropriate maybe instead of saying clerics cant you may ask how, whats your focus what did you do?

No instead you will throw up well a new cleric can't

of course not, it takes years and work and focus to get a divine build the way a person can be comfortable with, and that goes even for those who want super high healing abilities.

I just don't see how wanting to enjoy the game a certain way equals not playing a divine but it does make me glad I will never run with some of the posters in this thread because I can't imagine letting a class icon stop me from trying to get the very best out of the class in my own way.

[Orratti]

While its awesome some of you are still talking your view points, this thread really showed me the kind of attitude clerics face from the boards, maybe I am playing guild only or soloing a bit to much but I can tell you this if I pug its byoh like it don't like it it doesnt matter because the game is big enough for all play styles.

what really saddens me is the amount of posters who keep claiming clerics can't do things. We shouldn't have to brag about our capabilities after years of studying the class and figuring out what works for our builds.

I am pretty sure if any of you ran with Moops who has posted or even myself and watched us use our damage spells and or nuke when appropriate maybe instead of saying clerics cant you may ask how, whats your focus what did you do?

No instead you will throw up well a new cleric can't

of course not, it takes years and work and focus to get a divine build the way a person can be comfortable with, and that goes even for those who want super high healing abilities.

I just don't see how wanting to enjoy the game a certain way equals not playing a divine but it does make me glad I will never run with some of the posters in this thread because I can't imagine letting a class icon stop me from trying to get the very best out of the class in my own way.

Divines are powerful layered dps. They can easily soften up most opponents for quick melee before reaching them.

So exactly how many complaints about your role do you get while you are running?

I run offensively while healing full time and no one seems to be upset, bothered, throwing fits, or hardly notice at all.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Divines are powerful layered dps. They can easily soften up most opponents for quick melee before reaching them.

So exactly how many complaints about your role do you get while you are running?

I run offensively while healing full time and no one seems to be upset, bothered, throwing fits, or hardly notice at all.

That's cause you run with "me"!

[Orratti]

I just think that when you play a divine well you just don't get that many complaints.

No matter your approach.

On top of that most of the time we at least get some verbal appreciation and sometimes some pots and plat as well.

[Kalari]

Divines are powerful layered dps. They can easily soften up most opponents for quick melee before reaching them.

So exactly how many complaints about your role do you get while you are running?

I run offensively while healing full time and no one seems to be upset, bothered, throwing fits, or hardly notice at all.

Thing is this wasn't about complaints that I get, I don't even understand why it keeps coming up along with heals. A player on Sarlona made a BYOH for EE Tor and someone ran to the forums and started a thread about how Divines shouldn't do that, assumed that the person who did it just didn't want to heal

and that made me wonder a loud about the people who posted in there, there were things thrown up like "if you want to play that way why play a cleric?" And then they try to say "were not saying you have to babysit us but you need to heal."

No one ever said anything about not healing specially on my end, but being self sufficient in tough content goes a long way of getting stuff done in my opinion.

What truly bothers me is the attitude that a clerics core function is to heal and that should be our only focus even when they try to sugar coat it with "well we know you can do other stuff, it just isnt as good so why bother?" its condescending **** like that, that have many clerics good or bad just not want to bother with the general population.

I don't tell anyone to buff me on my fighter, I will chug pots back off and play smart when fighting in quest and raids. I invested in augments that cover my resist, have perma blur working on getting an EE ghost walking cloak for the incorporeal I am willing to put the effort in on my melee not to be a burden when I am in a full group doing elite so because I do this myself its wrong to want to group with people who also do this?

Thats the heart of this matter to me it shouldn't be about the class icon there is just a lack of respect from people who cannot think outside the box and don't want anyone else to. sorry ddo with its unlimited (well until they pass the new tree system) build options ruined that mentality we do not have to limit ourselves to caster, healer, trapper, tank and I am glad for it.

[Orratti]

Thing is this wasn't about complaints that I get, I don't even understand why it keeps coming up along with heals. A player on Sarlona made a BYOH for EE Tor and someone ran to the forums and started a thread about how Divines shouldn't do that, assumed that the person who did it just didn't want to heal

and that made me wonder a loud about the people who posted in there, there were things thrown up like "if you want to play that way why play a cleric?" And then they try to say "were not saying you have to babysit us but you need to heal."

No one ever said anything about not healing specially on my end, but being self sufficient in tough content goes a long way of getting stuff done in my opinion.

What truly bothers me is the attitude that a clerics core function is to heal and that should be our only focus even when they try to sugar coat it with "well we know you can do other stuff, it just isnt as good so why bother?" its condescending **** like that, that have many clerics good or bad just not want to bother with the general population.

I don't tell anyone to buff me on my fighter, I will chug pots back off and play smart when fighting in quest and raids. I invested in augments that cover my resist, have perma blur working on getting an EE ghost walking cloak for the incorporeal I am willing to put the effort in on my melee not to be a burden when I am in a full group doing elite so because I do this myself its wrong to want to group with people who also do this?

Thats the heart of this matter to me it shouldn't be about the class icon there is just a lack of respect from people who cannot think outside the box and don't want anyone else to. sorry ddo with its unlimited (well until they pass the new tree system) build options ruined that mentality we do not have to limit ourselves to caster, healer, trapper, tank and I am glad for it.

No argument from me on that. What a person puts in their lfm is their business. If it fills with the people they are looking for then that is all that matters.

[WruntJunior]

I just think that when you play a divine well you just don't get that many complaints.

No matter your approach.

On top of that most of the time we at least get some verbal appreciation and sometimes some pots and plat as well.

Unless people die because they do stupid things, or a run fails because the leader fails to lead and you're not willing to drink pots for it (especially true in raids), or anything like that. I've been in many runs where, due to me not being super-human at my ability to play a divine, my divine was blamed...and this is a significant contributor to my full squelch list. >_>

[Postumus]

Unless people die because they do stupid things, or a run fails because the leader fails to lead and you're not willing to drink pots for it (especially true in raids), or anything like that. I've been in many runs where, due to me not being super-human at my ability to play a divine, my divine was blamed...and this is a significant contributor to my full squelch list. >_>

Yes that happens, but it seems more often players take responsibility for their mistakes. I have had a LOT more players apologize or tell me they were the ones who made the mistake that caused their death than blame me for not healing keeping them alive.

[WruntJunior]

Yes that happens, but it seems more often players take responsibility for their mistakes. I have had a LOT more players apologize or tell me they were the ones who made the mistake that caused their death than blame me for not healing keeping them alive.

I've had those situations happen entirely too often, myself. Many players I've pugged with before I started using "elitist" lfm tags (namely, BYOH) and still when I'm not running such a group will immediately blame the healer for their stupid deaths, and make no effort to heal themselves...luckily, the "BYOH" tag filters out most of those people (though I'm considering a password tag for my lfm to ensure people actually read it, as I still get a few people that appear not to do so). I see a heavy concentration of it on Thelanis.

Luckily, if the enhancement pass looks like it does now when it ships, there'll be no more issue of people being upset that divines are doing something other than healing - those other options are being marginalized. :P

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Kalari and Orratti, it is interesting to watch you two debate, as I have played with both of you...lol

You two actually have very compatible playstyles.

I've played with Orratti longer. I know he has a lot of experience playing a divine.


BYOH did not used to bother me.
But I have seen too many groups and too many forum posts that seem to be really saying "every man for himself" which is not a playstyle I approve of.

I am also against roles, but in raids they are "almost" necessary.

I loved the "no healer" ToD raid I got to take part in.
But if I joined an average raid... on a Clr/Fvs... and did not say anything.... there is a good chance we would fail if I did not heal.

Could also say that in a six man group.

Tons of LFMs say "need healer". (and they really do need healers btw. )

I have shyed away from playing my Clr/Fvs because I do not enjoy babysitting....(often anyway)

I like freedom to play my way.

I totally understand some divine lovers who hate being forced into the healer role.

But I also think that they should heal people when needed too.

Actually.. it's a tough dilema for me...
I solved it by not playing a toon with a Clr/Fvs icon in the party window.

I tried to solve it by only joining groups that already had another healer type in them already.... (sadly I still got forced to heal...lol)


I also know that Divines cannot do top melee DPs.
I doubt many can do effective high level DC casting either.

Or... with the exceptions of Divine Punishment and Blade Barriers.. effective damage casting.

About Blade Barrier...
This spell is awesome..... when it works.

A great many dungeons can be soloed with ease and speed by dropping these.

In those dungeons, the melees haven't a.... prayer... of keeping up.

But.... it seems that the new end game has a whole lot of things with Evasion.... or just great Ref saves and a ton of HP.


Now.. Divine Punishment is nice too.
But... are there people that can really DP everything in a dungeon? And does it kill fast enough?

I doubt this.

So IMO, Divines are not great DPSer..... if BB is not effective anyway.


Not that it matters.
I have often said that most of the time DPS does not matter.

Unless it self heals/regens.. it will eventually die.. from the most dismal DPS.

That and the game is not really that difficult IMO.

You do need some decent gear.. build.. playstyle..... something.... for EEs.
But you do not need the absolute best.




I really do want people to play however they wish to.

I really do wish people brought their own healing too... and used it... and took responsibility for keeping themselves alive.

But I also think that everyone should help each other as best they can.

I know that Clr/Fvs are the best in the healing role.

I know that people expect them to heal.

I know it can be frustrating being forced to babysit stupid people.



Hmmm.... no easy answer really....


(well... unless everyone played like me! )

[WruntJunior]

BYOH did not used to bother me.
But I have seen too many groups and too many forum posts that seem to be really saying "every man for himself" which is not a playstyle I approve of.

Funny enough, most of the people that say BYOH is "every man for himself" are the people who say they never have and never would join a BYOH group, such as a certain previously prolific anti-BYOH poster who claimed to be quite the cool guy. >_>

[stoerm]

A soulstone is the direct result of a divine being a bad player.

no

the damage to my own DPS for casting a quick mass heal or mass cure is less than the entire damage output of even a less efficient DPS.
yes

Comments in red.

[Mubjon]

Really it looked like the point was that you didn't gimp your healing and that you don't like being told to use it.



You don't think I've ever been blamed for someone dying? Are you kidding me?

I build my clerics to do two things well. Either to stand in with the melees with the aura running and mass cures/heals centered on myself with bursts. Or I build them to be offensive casters that destruct and slay living casters and heal the mass of melees with mass heal/cures and single targeted healing spells. In all cases I also build for a strong Divine Punishment for end fights with the boss and cycling through that and my heal/mass heal spell as needed in raids. In fact raiding is the only time I do not mind being more centered on healing.

The way you have talked it seems that you more than likely run with the same people, be it friends or guildies. When I run with my friends and guildies they never blame me for their deaths or if they do it is not done in the tone of "What was you thinking casting that comet fall that probably saved the others, where was my HEAL!"

If you can't deal with that then yeah, tr into something else. It's not that hard to just recall and leave them on their own.

I should not have to TR into something else to group up with people in an MMORPG game.

It's also true alot of times that the group is correct. I've seen plenty of divines that don't heal well, usually from inexperience with the class. I'll grant that the criticism they recieve isn't exacty constuctive, but that doesn't make it wrong.

Most of the time I see people yelling at the cleric is when they have ran off from the rest of the group and died, ran through a trap and died or decided it was cool to run and fight behind some obstacles while the rest of the group is in a different part of the room.

Yes I have seen some die in the presence of the group and I have personally let people die that could not sustain more than a few seconds of being beat on. But, those are the minority cases in the 3+ years I have played a divine and in the last year I have really gotten away from pugging my clerics because it is just better to solo.

I have joined a dedicated group for the past two weekends with my divine and that is going good and enjoy that, so that might be how I will have to play divines from here on out and not pug them.

People should carry pots. Whether they do or not really doesn't change how you play or what needs to get done. Healing isn't babysitting. You can heal an entire group of cursed, diseased, stat damaged, and level drained people, then when they die you raise them and they are cured. Most of those maladies have timers that can be waited out if need be or have wands, scrolls, and pots that you or the party members can use to save your spell points.

Healing is exactly babysitting if it requires 100% of your attention. If someone cannot even go 5 seconds without needed a cure/heal spell there is a serious problem with that persons build. Those seem to be the ones that yell the loudest when they are let to die because of the drain on resources they are creating.

Even those maladies have timers for the most part, people still cry to have them fixed right away. I get that ability damage can be devastating, but I have a burst for that and I cannot see it. So telling me once that you have it and then run off to the next battle to die. Is not my problem, I am not going to waste a spell or scroll on something I can cure for free if given the time for it to work. Curses are not much of a problem outside of the permanment healing curse, but the pot removes that for you and is far more cost effective than spending the 20 spell points to remove it every single time you get it. Same goes for poison, disease and other maladies that people believe should be removed withing seconds of contacting.

If you are being asked to hang back and heal alot maybe there is a good reason for it. If the group starts seeing their divine's health jumping up and down they're going to try to grab that aggro off of you. They want you to stay alive. Trying to reduce the pressure on the divine and keeping them out of a possible party wipe is tactically sound. It's kind of hard to support the argument that they won't drink pots to help you keep them alive when you won't accept their help in trying to keep you alive.

The point is that my cleric is typically the one that can stay standing. I know its capabilities better than the person in the pug. There is a reason that I am standing in the pile with the melees and it has nothing to do with thinking I am going to do more damage than the barb or fighter. The weapon I am carrying might be lowering the AC of the mob, the aura going is ticking for the amount of a cure serious pot every two seconds and that helps mitigate the damage being taken. Using a burst when a spike of damage hits has the same affect as a mass heal being tossed into the pile. IF there is undead swarming about that turn undead or burst is going to do far more damage and aid to the group than if I stood back and watched red bars. Dropping a blade barrier in the middle of the pack of melees will add a quick 300+ damage to everything coming into it and out of it, depending on the quest that 300 to 600 pts of damage is almost 50% of the trash mobs health. Helping the melees to kill faster or the casters AOE finish off what is left.

None of that is possible if I just sit back and watch the red bars and do nothing more than play hireling.

It is up to me to decide if being in the thick of things is beneficial to the party or not. I know enough to back out if needed and I know if I should wait for the trap to be disarmed before proceeding or baring that what spell I need to mitigate damage. Heck all my divines are built with the ability to cast even arcane buffs, so my divines carry stoneskin, fireshield, blur and when I can find them displacement scrolls. I do not think it is too much to ask others to at least buy 20 pots from the vendor in market place for remove curse, disease, poison, blindness and lesser restore pots.

I build my divines to help the party and to be fun for me. It is why I solo or join my guild for runs now a days, because pugging has become too stressful dealing with people that refuse to take even a 1000 plat to help with something simple as removing their own curse/disease or blindness.

I used to pug exclusively for the first 2 and half years I played. It just is not that fun to pug any group where I might have demands placed on me on how I should play the character I have spent hundreds if not thousands of dollars and thousands of hours creating so the person can feel like the hero in the quest.


Good thing is that when the enhancement pass hits there will be no need to be a cleric anymore, a hire will be able to do what turbine is going to force all clerics to be doing. I will say that splashing 6 levels of cleric will be far more beneficial to people then, can get the aura and the bursts for 40 ap.

[Mubjon]

Indeed.
(Combat:GlorifyQuC is blocked)

Silly Divine! You should have taken that Feat that lets you cast through obstacles! Or at least taken the Feat that lets you know that the other player was going to run around a corner just as your spell was cast! What were you thinking? Silly Divine, it's all your fault!

What you mean you did not take the feat "Cure stupid instantly"? Man way to gimp your divine!