Divines: why do so many others know our role?

[Postumus]

Nothing to do with fear on my end, as I disagreed with you. I have two divines, one that is a completionist and clr and fvs PL twice done. I have spent quite my time playing a divine character. I play them to their full on potential. I have no problem healing while I melee, spell cast, even while entertaining jokes in channels. But then again that may be why I am so critical of divines. Some act like it's so hard to heal, when the plain truth is it isn't. You push little buttons with + signs on them and red bars go up. If you can't handle doing that while doing other things your class and build can do, you aren't ready to walk and chew bubble gum at the same time.

This is exactly what my first reaction is when I read the yet another of the "I'M the DIVINE so I CHOOSE who gets healed/raised and who doesn't!" threads.


I also enjoy how posters in these threads always try to play the 'you obviously haven't played a divine' card when people point out that healing is really not that difficult to do on top of everything else a cleric/fvs/bard/druid/arti can do. Actually the reason so many others know your role is because so many of us also play that role. We just play it differently, and, in some cases, better since we don't limit ourselves and we tend to play more like a team member than a hierophant.

[Apoxia]

Sometimes the draw to play a divine is the self reliance for healing. So long as any player doesn't refuse to heal themselves, refuse to toss a heal towards someone incapped, or refuse to rez someone dead, they haven't gimped themselves.

It makes sense that healing is communal responsibility that players avoid due to detracting from the aspect of the game they enjoy. Not dying is a personal responsibility which can be avoided by increasing your hp total and mitigating the damage you would otherwise take.

I'll take a player that plays below their maximum potential but doesn't die over a player that plays at maximum potential before dying.

It's a matter of perspective. How can someone refusing to manage their own health bar be reasonably justified in dumping that responsibility on anyone else?

I was in no way suggesting that any player shouldn't be self sufficient. I build all my toons to be and expect anyone I'm with to be as well. That in no way excuses any player capable of helping another from refusing to do so. I would help heal a player in trouble as much as I am capable on any of my toons, being a divine or not.

I really have no idea where all this self entitlement in the divine community comes from, I play a divine and don't balk at the aspect of healing someone. I can spare a gcd and a swing of my weapon/cast of a spell to increase my parties overall dps and effectiveness by keeping a party member alive.

Perhaps the next time I play on my Wiz I wont hage or buff, or maybe my monk will start forgetting to stun those pesky EE mobs, I mean after all, I have huge saves, dodge, incorp, displace, and Imp Evasion... they don't bother me any.

[eachna_gislin]

To slow them down so they don't get in front of the barb?

AHAHAHAHA, so true.

The worst part of playing a cleric is that no matter how much striding you have, no matter how many haste or other clickies, no matter what you do, you're always the slowest toon in the party. Bar none.

Even my halfling outruns clerics.

[Mubjon]

If you didn't gimp your healing then you have nothing to do with my post.

I can't recall anyone ever telling me while playing a divine that I am forced to sit back and heal. Ever.

I have been asked for heals usually as I am casting them. Yes it is irritating.

Blah blah blah pots blah blah blah. Most of that **** wears off and rarely is asked for. The rest most people have pots to cover.

The people that get the most upset about healing a group are the ones who suck at it. If you can't cast, fight, range, and heal then step up your game.

You missed the point entirely, which is not surprising.

You more than likely are not pugging much if you are finding most people have those pots listed to cover what is in a quest or have not been told to stand back and heal. I have ran into those people even in epics and one of the reasons I TR'd my main from a cleric is because I kept running into those people over and over.

No the most people that get upset at healing the group are the ones that hear over and over about how some person died because they ran half the map and aggro'd too many mobs. Or that person ran through a trap after being told that it was there and the rogue was getting ready to disarm it, then go on for 10 minutes about how bad the Cleric was or rage quit the quest.

[Mubjon]

To slow them down so they don't get in front of the barb?

lol yeah that always bothers me on my divine, I have to have 30% striding and haste to even be able to see the party go around the next bend.

And jumping? Forget it have to take the armor off and the shield off to make a jump even with a +30.

[stoerm]

Know what roles you can play, see which fits best in the current group and situation. Don't stick to one because of a dogmatic belief in your principles.

A team comprises a group of people or animals linked in a common purpose. ...

A group in itself does not necessarily constitute a team. Teams normally have members with complementary skills and generate synergy through a coordinated effort which allows each member to maximize his/her strengths and minimize his/her weaknesses. Team members need to learn how to help one another, help other team members realize their true potential, and create an environment that allows everyone to go beyond their limitations.[1] A team becomes more than just a collection of people when a strong sense of mutual commitment creates synergy, thus generating performance greater than the sum of the performance of its individual members.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Team

Here's an example of synergy where a team member helps overcome others' limitations and reach their true potential: a divine melee and a fighter. Both melee, and the divine uses mass heals/aura/bursts to heal them both. This is more efficient than a divine not memorizing mass heals and requiring the fighter to stop melee to scroll heal himself, which might or might not work.

That's not to say it's not worthwhile for a melee class to have some healing capability. Since group makeups are pretty random in pugs and all sorts of situations happen, it's good to be able to at least help an incapped divine back to positive HP.

I have a cleric who often equals or exceeds melees' DPS, even in the company of other TRs. It depends a lot on the group and the quest. Sometimes it's better to turtle up and stick to heals, other times it's better to charge ahead and clear the room. Sometimes I make the wrong choice, but I try to learn.

[SirValentine]

That in no way excuses any player capable of helping another from refusing to do so. I would help heal a player in trouble as much as I am capable on any of my toons, being a divine or not.

Good!

I really have no idea where all this self entitlement in the divine community comes from
<snip>
Perhaps the next time I play on my Wiz I wont hage or buff

I see far more Wiz who won't buff than divine who won't heal. But you might well start getting ****y about buffing if you start getting told to stand at the back, buff, Mass Hold and not waste your SP on anything else.

The divine "attitude" you might run into is a direct response to being treated like **** by other players.

[SirValentine]

There seems to be a number of players, not all of them new, who feel that once a cleric (or in some cases, a favored soul or druid) joins a party, the player's responsibility to play with some intelligence just went away.

Sadly, yes.

It should be clear there is a big difference between "a cleric refusing to heal", which I very rarely see happen, and a cleric who wants to do more than be 100% responsible for 5 or 11 other people's red bars, which is something I see happen on a regular basis.

And, yes. I was going to +1 you, but I've given out too much rep in the last 24 hours.

[GlorifyQuC]

I honestly wonder what the ratio of people who say "A cleric/fvs should be able to do healing as a main role, and if they do not or god forbid utilize the class in another way (Damage, battle) they are gimping themselves" actually play said classes?

For metagaming purposes, you are gimping yourself and everyone you play with if you're incapable of healing on a divine.

You'll never do the damage of a real DPS, it's as plain and simple as that. You may do more damage or equal damage to poor DPS players, but you'll never out damage any sort of real DPS character.

[susiedupfer]

For metagaming purposes, you are gimping yourself and everyone you play with if you're incapable of healing on a divine.

You'll never do the damage of a real DPS, it's as plain and simple as that. You may do more damage or equal damage to poor DPS players, but you'll never out damage any sort of real DPS character.

Maybe not, but soulstones do no DPS. Therefore, whoever is alive the longest does the best DPS.

[Postumus]

Know what roles you can play, see which fits best in the current group and situation. Don't stick to one because of a dogmatic belief in your principles.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Team

Here's an example of synergy where a team member helps overcome others' limitations and reach their true potential: a divine melee and a fighter. Both melee, and the divine uses mass heals/aura/bursts to heal them both. This is more efficient than a divine not memorizing mass heals and requiring the fighter to stop melee to scroll heal himself, which might or might not work.

That's not to say it's not worthwhile for a melee class to have some healing capability. Since group makeups are pretty random in pugs and all sorts of situations happen, it's good to be able to at least help an incapped divine back to positive HP.

I have a cleric who often equals or exceeds melees' DPS, even in the company of other TRs. It depends a lot on the group and the quest. Sometimes it's better to turtle up and stick to heals, other times it's better to charge ahead and clear the room. Sometimes I make the wrong choice, but I try to learn.

Great post. Team play is obviously not limited to divines.

[GlorifyQuC]

Maybe not, but soulstones do no DPS. Therefore, whoever is alive the longest does the best DPS.

Even self sustaining DPS characters like shiradi wiz/sorcs, SF pot barbs, heal scroll melee/monkchers/AAs out damage a divine trying to do DPS. The gap is not as extreme as a full dps barb, but it doesn't really matter.

Soulstones are created when selfish players join raids/quests looking for divines for the purpose that they keep people alive, not necessarily so they heal bot, but so that they at the very least heal people and make deaths not happen.

A soulstone is the direct result of a divine being a bad player.

I have a cleric who often equals or exceeds melees' DPS, even in the company of other TRs. It depends a lot on the group and the quest. Sometimes it's better to turtle up and stick to heals, other times it's better to charge ahead and clear the room. Sometimes I make the wrong choice, but I try to learn.

I commonly find myself out-damaging other TR'd melees but I don't just let them die. Mainly because I'm a nice guy most of the time, but also because I have the common sense to realize the damage to my own DPS for casting a quick mass heal or mass cure is less than the entire damage output of even a less efficient DPS.

[Archangel666]

A soulstone is the direct result of a divine being a bad player.

Indeed.
(Combat:GlorifyQuC is blocked)

Silly Divine! You should have taken that Feat that lets you cast through obstacles! Or at least taken the Feat that lets you know that the other player was going to run around a corner just as your spell was cast! What were you thinking? Silly Divine, it's all your fault!

[WruntJunior]

Even self sustaining DPS characters like shiradi wiz/sorcs, SF pot barbs, heal scroll melee/monkchers/AAs out damage a divine trying to do DPS. The gap is not as extreme as a full dps barb, but it doesn't really matter.

Soulstones are created when selfish players join raids/quests looking for divines for the purpose that they keep people alive, not necessarily so they heal bot, but so that they at the very least heal people and make deaths not happen.

A soulstone is the direct result of a divine being a bad player.



I commonly find myself out-damaging other TR'd melees but I don't just let them die. Mainly because I'm a nice guy most of the time, but also because I have the common sense to realize the damage to my own DPS for casting a quick mass heal or mass cure is less than the entire damage output of even a less efficient DPS.

First of all, lol at your entire post.

Second of all, a soulstone is definitely the result of someone being a bad player a majority of the time...here's a hint, it's usually the person blaming the divine. :P

[Orratti]

spoken like someone that has never played a cleric in DDO.

You can splash 3 levels of another class or group of classes and not harm the healing one bit.

I have in my bio my cleric

"Babysitting available at 500K plat per quest, my boredom has a price, however, if you want a divine, then that is free"

See I do not have a problem healing when needed, I do have a problem with being commanded to sit back and heal, remove poison, removing some curse or disease, and fixing stat damage. There happens to be pots for all that and people should carry them. Including cure serious pots for topping off after the battle is over if they are not willing to come and bask in the glory of my aura before moving on.

There is a reason that Clerics are given the heavy armor prof without having to splash a melee class to get it. And it has nothing with the way it looks.

Really it looked like the point was that you didn't gimp your healing and that you don't like being told to use it.

You missed the point entirely, which is not surprising.

You more than likely are not pugging much if you are finding most people have those pots listed to cover what is in a quest or have not been told to stand back and heal. I have ran into those people even in epics and one of the reasons I TR'd my main from a cleric is because I kept running into those people over and over.

No the most people that get upset at healing the group are the ones that hear over and over about how some person died because they ran half the map and aggro'd too many mobs. Or that person ran through a trap after being told that it was there and the rogue was getting ready to disarm it, then go on for 10 minutes about how bad the Cleric was or rage quit the quest.

You don't think I've ever been blamed for someone dying? Are you kidding me?

If you can't deal with that then yeah, tr into something else. It's not that hard to just recall and leave them on their own.

It's also true alot of times that the group is correct. I've seen plenty of divines that don't heal well, usually from inexperience with the class. I'll grant that the criticism they recieve isn't exacty constuctive, but that doesn't make it wrong.

People should carry pots. Whether they do or not really doesn't change how you play or what needs to get done. Healing isn't babysitting. You can heal an entire group of cursed, diseased, stat damaged, and level drained people, then when they die you raise them and they are cured. Most of those maladies have timers that can be waited out if need be or have wands, scrolls, and pots that you or the party members can use to save your spell points.

If you are being asked to hang back and heal alot maybe there is a good reason for it. If the group starts seeing their divine's health jumping up and down they're going to try to grab that aggro off of you. They want you to stay alive. Trying to reduce the pressure on the divine and keeping them out of a possible party wipe is tactically sound. It's kind of hard to support the argument that they won't drink pots to help you keep them alive when you won't accept their help in trying to keep you alive.

[mobrien316]

A soulstone is the direct result of a divine being a bad player.

And therein lies the frustration that many players of divine characters feel. If you are a cleric, it is your job to keep the party alive no matter how unintelligent or irresponsible their behavior is.

With a lot of below-average players, they feel that when there is a cleric in the party it is the cleric's job to monitor that player's red bar, so if that player dies it is the cleric's fault. Once a cleric joins the player feels he never has to look at his red bar again (unless it is to scream for a heal when he's at 250/280 HP.) It doesn't matter if the player runs into the next room and is out of range, or if he stands in the middle of a trap, if he has no fortification, or if he ran off before elemental buffs were passed. If he dies it's because the divine is a bad player.

[GlorifyQuC]

You don't pick a job as a teacher and then go "****, most of these kids are alright, but this one is stupid. I have an idea I'll just not teach him."

It's frustrating at times, I main a divine I would know, but in the end you picked your poison by choosing the class AND partying with others. Don't think it's your job to heal? Go solo the game, no one wants to play with gimp divine DPS.

With a lot of below-average players, they feel that when there is a cleric in the party it is the cleric's job to monitor that player's red bar, so if that player dies it is the cleric's fault.

It's funny how the extremely high end players and the low end players come to similar agreements in assignments. The top tier metagaming player will have the understanding that a full DPS barb/fighter/whatever will do significantly more damage than a divine, and thus using the occasional GCD to heal is an overall DPS increase despite it cutting into the divine's DPS rotation.

I've heard many player's claim their divine does more damage than DPS classes. Well, that's simply impossible unless you have some unique abilities no one else in the game has along with loot that hasn't been released. A quick comparison of a fvs and a barb should instantly dictate the inability to close the gap and be on par in terms of damage. You'll NEVER be able to make up the 6d6 untyped, the 16 strength, the 3x higher crits. Sorry, 3 stack AoV DP with heavily invested spell power crits for ~1k when barbs are critting for 12k+.

First of all, lol at your entire post.

Second of all, a soulstone is definitely the result of someone being a bad player a majority of the time...here's a hint, it's usually the person blaming the divine. :P

First of all, irrelevant insult that states I don't understand divines.

Second of all, blanket statement that shows I don't understand the three basic reasons people turn into soulstones.
1. Bad(or good) player was not healed because the divine was either:
a. Refusing to heal because he's bad
b. DPSing and didn't get a heal off in time
c. Incapable of dpsing and healing at the same time
2. Good player rolls a 1 on a trip/knockdown/hold/anything and is put into a situation that generally never happens.
3. Inexperienced players run into traps, after all, without prior knowledge of a quest or looking it up on the wiki many traps in this game have very little precursor to when there could possibly be one.

There happens to be pots for all that and people should carry them.

New players can't afford the 100k+ plat price it takes to run the entire prevention mill of potions and in any case, your spell points regenerate where as the potions do not. That is simply divines being lazy, self-centered, and sporting a god complex as so many seem to do.

And therein lies the frustration that many players of divine characters feel. If you are a cleric, it is your job to keep the party alive no matter how unintelligent or irresponsible their behavior is.

You don't see trappers becoming frustrated that no one helps them out with traps.
You don't see high damage characters fussing over the fact the divine players do 20% of their damage.

The only role that ******* is divine, and you know what? People are sick of it, why do you think everyone builds self-sufficient characters now? So when that prick divine starts talking like he's jesus reborn they can tell him to go **** himself and simply kick him.

[Starla70]

The role of a divine is the same as the role of any class: play the class to its full potential. If you think a divine that never casts a heal on anyone is playing a toon to its full potential, then you have a fundamental misunderstanding about the class.

Any divine that never heals is a flavor build, plain and simple. If the player of the build was interested in being the best they could be, they'd toss heals as well, or roll another class. Divines aren't the top of any category, except HEALING. While I'm all for people playing flavor builds, I'm not all for people pretending flavor builds are the way top toons SHOULD be played. I build self sufficient toons. I expect anyone that joins my groups, to play self sufficient toons. I take the first five and go. If a divine hits my group and decides to never toss a heal, then I regard them as a bad player; they clearly do not know how to play their toon to its full potential or are purposely not playing their toon to its full potential. If it was any other class acting this way, it wouldn't get support from the community. But for some reason, divines get a pass.

I have to agree with this person's view. Not to mention, I have to wonder why a game called "Dungeons and Dragon's online" would not be considered like it's name sake. The idea if you play a cleric as a healer is from WOW, to me that is utter nonsense. I have not nor will I ever play that in any of it's forms. I am one that believes that is one thing wrong with what DDO is becoming.

What is wrong with allowing those of us who wish to play this MMO in that matter alone? Your way of playing every toon with a splash of this and a splash of that the only way to play it? I find that just as offensive as you find my way of looking at a cleric. Why does that give you the right to get the ear of the DEV's and ruin my game play, which I do pay for. I would think as a business profit, it doesn't matter how they get the money or from who, just that they do.

Having played pen and paper since 1979, I think the role of the cleric was to heal and be the care taker of the party. Yes many of the restrictions of the cleric are gone here, but the role of the cleric in the group should be similar. If you have any P&P knowledge you should know that clerics were meant to also be secondary fighters.

From the players handbook from 1978, all clerics were not allowed to use edged weapons, something that here has been changed depending on your enhancements you choose. The principal attribute of a cleric is wisdom. High scores in strength and constitution were suggested. The spells of the cleric convey it's main purpose, which is, the cleric serves to fortify, protect, and revitalize.

I would think the idea of P&P is what started many of the off shoots. It is fine we all have our ideas on where this class has gone to. However, my issue is people who work so hard to try to take away the other's rights to play the class as they want to. I do not consider my 24th level cleric as a heal bot. I can say that if I am in a pug party and the fighter splash one of all dies because he runs ahead out of my sight and gets killed it is my fault some how. Now, explain to me why that is, if everyone else is playing with their splashes to be self healing? I think there are many who play the game expecting a cleric to heal even in a fight. I also believe many of them are playing right now and not in here reading through these threads trying to keep the class alive.

[Charononus]

You don't pick a job as a teacher and then go "****, most of these kids are alright, but this one is stupid. I have an idea I'll just not teach him."

It's frustrating at times, I main a divine I would know, but in the end you picked your poison by choosing the class AND partying with others. Don't think it's your job to heal? Go solo the game, no one wants to play with gimp divine DPS.



It's funny how the extremely high end players and the low end players come to similar agreements in assignments. The top tier metagaming player will have the understanding that a full DPS barb/fighter/whatever will do significantly more damage than a divine, and thus using the occasional GCD to heal is an overall DPS increase despite it cutting into the divine's DPS rotation.

I've heard many player's claim their divine does more damage than DPS classes. Well, that's simply impossible unless you have some unique abilities no one else in the game has along with loot that hasn't been released. A quick comparison of a fvs and a barb should instantly dictate the inability to close the gap and be on par in terms of damage. You'll NEVER be able to make up the 6d6 untyped, the 16 strength, the 3x higher crits. Sorry, 3 stack AoV DP with heavily invested spell power crits for ~1k when barbs are critting for 12k+.



First of all, irrelevant insult that states I don't understand divines.

Second of all, blanket statement that shows I don't understand the three basic reasons people turn into soulstones.
1. Bad(or good) player was not healed because the divine was either:
a. Refusing to heal because he's bad
b. DPSing and didn't get a heal off in time
c. Incapable of dpsing and healing at the same time
2. Good player rolls a 1 on a trip/knockdown/hold/anything and is put into a situation that generally never happens.
3. Inexperienced players run into traps, after all, without prior knowledge of a quest or looking it up on the wiki many traps in this game have very little precursor to when there could possibly be one.



New players can't afford the 100k+ plat price it takes to run the entire prevention mill of potions and in any case, your spell points regenerate where as the potions do not. That is simply divines being lazy, self-centered, and sporting a god complex as so many seem to do.


You don't see trappers becoming frustrated that no one helps them out with traps.
You don't see high damage characters fussing over the fact the divine players do 20% of their damage.

The only role that ******* is divine, and you know what? People are sick of it, why do you think everyone builds self-sufficient characters now? So when that prick divine starts talking like he's jesus reborn they can tell him to go **** himself and simply kick him.

People like you are the reason I will soon no longer have any divines.

[GlorifyQuC]

The idea if you play a cleric as a healer is from WOW, to me that is utter nonsense. I have not nor will I ever play that in any of it's forms. I am one that believes that is one thing wrong with what DDO is becoming.

I fail to grasp how you've come to this conclusion other than being uninformed. In fact the classes in WoW are far more flexible than in DDO, and in general classes in WoW are more flexible. DDO essentially has 2 roles, damage dealers and healers, where as WoW has a third role(tanking).

Divines who don't heal are simply gimp characters, where as the 'healing' classes in WoW all have different builds they can play competitively. It would be like building a divine that sacrifices their healing capabilities immensely to pull 95ish% of the damage of a full DPS build. This is simply impossible in DDO, you cannot make a divine that does this because the mechanical gaps are impossible to overcome.

As to the mention of pnp, this isn't pnp, nor will it ever be. You'll never be able to match the flexibility of a DM with scripted quests, and attempts to blur the line would only be bad for the game.

People like you are the reason I will soon no longer have any divines.

I'm a little confused, if you don't want to conform to the general consensus of players when you join a group, why not just go solo the content? Play with friends who don't expect you to heal? Isn't giving the class up ruining your fun in the same manner people expecting you to fulfill the only role your class is good at is?

You do realize you can fulfill 90% of the damage a divine can pull while keeping a party alive, correct? Sure, it requires a lot more concentration, but you get the best of both worlds. You get to play your DPS build and the group gets the benefit of a divine who doesn't let them die. Win-win, no?