What's all this Shiradi talk about?

[knightgf]

Seriously, why are so many casters taking Shiradi? Maybe it's just me, or maybe its because of the poor descriptions of epic destinies, but I don't see what all the hype is about, honestly.

I smell a nerf coming with all this talk, no offense. It just seems way too powerful with how people talk about it left and right.

[Viconiax]

Seriously, why are so many casters taking Shiradi? Maybe it's just me, or maybe its because of the poor descriptions of epic destinies, but I don't see what all the hype is about, honestly.

I smell a nerf coming with all this talk, no offense. It just seems way too powerful with how people talk about it left and right.

EE GH mobs saves is too high. Which made lot of EDs that focused/have DC abilities seem bad right now. Fix saves, boost weak ED like unyieling, etc. and it will solve the problem, no need to nerf anything.

[Ganolyn]

Seriously, why are so many casters taking Shiradi? Maybe it's just me, or maybe its because of the poor descriptions of epic destinies, but I don't see what all the hype is about, honestly.

I smell a nerf coming with all this talk, no offense. It just seems way too powerful with how people talk about it left and right.

The hype is about damage, lots of it, with no serious mana cost for the user. I think it works fine and agree that other ED should be brought up to snuff, not this one (or others) nerfed.

[Darkrok]

I agree with the other two posters. Shiradi casters aren't doing insane damage compared to melee and ranged characters. They are far more effective in end-game EE's than DC-based casters because the DC's are just too hard to reach on a lot of the enemies. I've seen LD and FoTW melee builds shame Shiradi casters, seen FoTW ranged builds mow down EE bosses, etc...it's just that DC-based casting is bad enough in EE that Shiradi's lack of DC-reliance looks exploity in comparison.

[Kmnh]

Two things:

- The shiradi random procs say that they have a chance to proc one per spell or once per arrow, but the actual code makes them have a chance to proc per time the spell does damage. You can get a lot of procs from spells that do damage multiple times, like chain missles and meteor swarm. A shiradi sorcerer can spam these spells and hope for helplessness and instakill procs, and doing thgat is easier and cheaper than landing DC-based spells.

- Many arcane damage spells have a fixed level cap so the 5 caster levels from draconic and magister, which would normally be their main selling point, don't do anything. A shiradi sorcerer casts cone of cold, does the same damage that a magister or DI would and has a chance of proccing random stuff.

[maximus123123]

I agree with the other two posters. Shiradi casters aren't doing insane damage compared to melee and ranged characters. They are far more effective in end-game EE's than DC-based casters because the DC's are just too hard to reach on a lot of the enemies. I've seen LD and FoTW melee builds shame Shiradi casters, seen FoTW ranged builds mow down EE bosses, etc...it's just that DC-based casting is bad enough in EE that Shiradi's lack of DC-reliance looks exploity in comparison.

If you fix DC casting, sorcerers would shame FoTW ranged builds.
But I've seen FoTW ranged toons get shamed by melee as well on EE. Depends on the player's skill. Most who ask for nerfs are IMO not the top players or have well designed toons so they are making guesses about other people's builds, not basing it on real world information.

[HungarianRhapsody]

Seriously, why are so many casters taking Shiradi? Maybe it's just me, or maybe its because of the poor descriptions of epic destinies, but I don't see what all the hype is about, honestly.

I smell a nerf coming with all this talk, no offense. It just seems way too powerful with how people talk about it left and right.

The big reason why so many people are switching to Shiradi (myself included) isn't because it's overpowered ZOMG! LOOK AT ME SOLOING FoT! It's because the more traditional caster paths have been severely proxy nerfed. Once upon a time (i.e. in U16), I could contribute meaningfully in pretty much anything with my DC focused Wizard. He wasn't the most uber super-caster on the server, but he got the job done well enough that I enjoyed playing him. Today, he's just not worth bringing in the GH quests on Hard or Elite. I'll end up *much* better off bringing my Fighter or Monk and I just don't enjoy playing them as much as I enjoy my Wizard.

DC casters have a different performance scale than melee characters do. If one melee character has 10 less To Hit than another melee character, then they're still going to land close to the same number of hits in EE content. They will hit less, obviously, but it will still be close enough that they are making a real contribution. If they have half the total DPS, they still contribute because DPS between two characters stacks 100% when they're attacking the same enemy. DC casters don't stack with DPS the same way, however. When you have the DC to make spells land appropriately, then you can kill or disable enemies. When you don't have the DC, then those spells just ain't gonna land. There is no middle ground. If one DC caster has a DC that's 10 lower than another, then those two casters are not in the same league.

Shiradi turns every caster into a DPS caster. If you have the best Shiradi on the server, then you're a colossal nightmare that can take down the hardest quests with ease. If you're in the middle of the pack, you're not going to be soloing EE Gianthold quests, but you can still make a meaningful contribution in spite of the fact that you're not at the front of the pack.

[HungarianRhapsody]

- Many arcane damage spells have a fixed level cap so the 5 caster levels from draconic and magister, which would normally be their main selling point, don't do anything. A shiradi sorcerer casts cone of cold, does the same damage that a magister or DI would and has a chance of proccing random stuff.

This is a HUGE aspect of the attraction to Shiradi. When Magister and Draconic don't actually offer anything that's going to be useful to you, then Shiradi becomes much more attractive.

[bhgiant]

Right now you have ~3 options.

DPS Sorc vs EE mobs which have insanely high HP = SP dump
DC Wiz vs EE mobs which have insanely high saves = SP dump (debuffs, multiple attempts etc)
Shiradi Sorc/Wiz vs EE mobs = almost no SP (plus no save CC, comparable damage, and a chance for awesome affects like insta-kills)

It does what the other options do but for a fraction of the cost in SP. It's not that the damage output is so incredible, it's just more efficient.

[maximus123123]

Right now you have ~3 options.

DPS Sorc vs EE mobs which have insanely high HP = SP dump
DC Wiz vs EE mobs which have insanely high saves = SP dump (debuffs, multiple attempts etc)
Shiradi Sorc/Wiz vs EE mobs = almost no SP (plus no save CC, comparable damage, and a chance for awesome affects like insta-kills)

It does what the other options do but for a fraction of the cost in SP. It's not that the damage output is so incredible, it's just more efficient.

Nerf Shiradi Sorc/Wiz and what are you left with?

Once DC casting is fixed (either by toning down mob DC saves or upping DI and Magister spell DC and spell pen), Shiradi will be less alluring except for those who don't have multiple TR's into a caster and still want to be somewhat effective and have some fun on EEs. Nerf down Shiradi at all (like Nerve Venom for instance) and you will kill off this option even though CC casting with some caster past lives is far more powerful when it works right.

EDIT: There is one very important advantage to keeping Shiradi the way it is now while boosting DI and Magister. New non-TR casters would still be viable with Shiradi even if they are less sought after than CC casters. This is important for new players who don't have a lot of TR's into toons. Epic Destinies ought to make builds fully viable without a ton of TR's. TR should just be the icing on the cake so to speak.

[maximus123123]

I smell a nerf coming with all this talk, no offense. It just seems way too powerful with how people talk about it left and right.

See that's the problem.
Those who talk of a nerf often have no experience with it.

It is not massive DPS. It's sustained DPS (with a side of CC) without the need to drink constantly.
It's efficient not spectacular (except in those rare cases you proc the +50% joy of the queen with Tea, but that is very rare...and in those instances, its massive DPS is justifiable given it's rarity; and btw, it's the one thing that keeps me playing a Shiradi caster...the off chance of procing that specific Tea effect).

EDIT: Not to mention, the idea of slipping off to have some tea with the Queen of Summer is just such a cool concept...

[Darkrok]

It is not massive DPS. It's sustained DPS (with a side of CC) without the need to drink constantly.
It's efficient not spectacular (except in those rare cases you proc the +50% joy of the queen with Tea, but that is very rare...and in those instances, its massive DPS is justifiable given it's rarity; and btw, it's the one thing that keeps me playing a Shiradi caster...the off chance of procing that specific Tea effect).

EDIT: Not to mention, the idea of slipping off to have some tea with the Queen of Summer is just such a cool concept...

Well put! The sustained damage and button pressing to do that damage is what attracted me to the option. I loved my old AM Evoker from right when they came out with that option (pre-nerfs to cooldowns and the split of force and repair damage). Shiradi delivers on what that build did, makes the dps viable, and tosses in the added bonus of a bit of CC.

Maybe I've just been unlucky, but I've only gotten the rare proc 1 time. It seems like I'm always either 75% absorb, 100prr, or 300hp's. Usually the 300hp's. The time I did get it though was flippin' insane!

[maximus123123]

Maybe I've just been unlucky, but I've only gotten the rare proc 1 time. It seems like I'm always either 75% absorb, 100prr, or 300hp's. Usually the 300hp's. The time I did get it though was flippin' insane!

You haven't been unlucky. It's ultra rare (and ultra cool!).

[jalont]

Honestly, I wanted it nerfed before but after playing it for awhile, my selfishness says leave it alone :P. No matter what they lower saves too, I wouldn't switch out. Shiradi allows you to dump everything that makes a caster a caster, and spend those resources on other build aspects, while still being a great caster.

[maximus123123]

Honestly, I wanted it nerfed before but after playing it for awhile, my selfishness says leave it alone :P. No matter what they lower saves too, I wouldn't switch out. Shiradi allows you to dump everything that makes a caster a caster, and spend those resources on other build aspects, while still being a great caster.

Which, incidentally, makes it great for new players who want to play casters but don't have a ton of TR's into their wizard or sorcerer.

Once DC casting is brought down from the ridiculous levels they're at (or alternatively Magister and DI get innate increases to DC's and spell pen), I suspect many if not most casters will switch to those. Shiradi is still fun for the reasons mentioned above as well as Superman mode from the rare Joy of the Queen proc and even rarer Indulgence of the Mad Queen.

EDIT: The +50% procs from Audience with the Queen is an absolute adreniline rush. It's addictive and what video games should be all about...

[knightgf]

Ok, so it seems audiance with the queen is one point of being a shiradi. Isn't there anything else? Seems kinda limited if you ask me...

[maximus123123]

Ok, so it seems audiance with the queen is one point of being a shiradi. Isn't there anything else? Seems kinda limited if you ask me...

Get Double Rainbow and maxed out Nerve Venom.
Use Magic Missiles, Force Missiles, and Chain Missiles (the last one when there's more than one mob).
You will chain procs together from all the missiles going thereby doing more damage than expected.
You will also paralyze one or two mobs at a time allowing them to be safely dispatched by the other members of the party.

Max out Healing Spring and give that out (you'll get three clicks) and you've also just helped the party with occasional healing (every 30 seconds).

You can also throw in occasional Meteor Swarms for added DPS.

All the other caster abilities still apply (buffs, debuffs, clouds, etc.) but you don't have to invest overly heavily in Charisma or Intelligence thereby opening up a lot more build concepts.

And then there's Audience with the Queen...

[jalont]

Get Double Rainbow and maxed out Nerve Venom.
Use Magic Missiles, Force Missiles, and Chain Missiles (the last one when there's more than one mob).
You will chain procs together from all the missiles going thereby doing more damage than expected.
You will also paralyze one or two mobs at a time allowing them to be safely dispatched by the other members of the party.

Max out Healing Spring and give that out (you'll get three clicks) and you've also just helped the party with occasional healing (every 30 seconds).

You can also throw in occasional Meteor Swarms for added DPS.

All the other caster abilities still apply (buffs, debuffs, clouds, etc.) but you don't have to invest overly heavily in Charisma or Intelligence thereby opening up a lot more build concepts.

And then there's Audience with the Queen...

Yep, meanwhile dropping all spell focus/spell pen feats, and maybe even all metas... though I have to play around more to see about metas and a sorc.

[maximus123123]

Yep, meanwhile dropping all spell focus/spell pen feats, and maybe even all metas... though I have to play around more to see about metas and a sorc.

Well, you'll need a minimum on your main stat to get up to lvl nine spells.

You'll want Quicken if you are a WF caster and want uninterruptable Reconstruct.
You'll also want Maximize and Empower for recontsruct and for the occasional superfast but very dangerous encounters where you want to end it fast and are not concerned about spell point usage.

If you do FoT, you'll want Enlarge.

You'll still need Extend for Rage, Haste, Blur, and Displacement on yourself (4 minute displacements beat 2 minute ones for sanity sake).

You can dump Heighten though.

EDIT: Despite the fact that you don't need charisma or intelligence, I'd advise investing in it as you would a normal caster anyway (maxing it out on creation, during stat increases on level ups, and gear). This way you can still use things like Knock and Meteor Swarm and possibly other spells.

[Dendrix]

If my shiradi destiny was not broke I could find out.

Here I am with negative fifty nine thousand destiny points in it, when I should be positive fourteen.

(a Lesser Reincarnate "broke" my character half way when I could no longer level up, the GM mostly fixed it, but ended up breaking my shiradi destiny. Been waiting over a week for them to finally fix me up)