What's all this Shiradi talk about?

[SealedInSong]

Two things:

- The shiradi random procs say that they have a chance to proc one per spell or once per arrow, but the actual code makes them have a chance to proc per time the spell does damage. You can get a lot of procs from spells that do damage multiple times, like chain missles and meteor swarm. A shiradi sorcerer can spam these spells and hope for helplessness and instakill procs, and doing thgat is easier and cheaper than landing DC-based spells.

- Many arcane damage spells have a fixed level cap so the 5 caster levels from draconic and magister, which would normally be their main selling point, don't do anything. A shiradi sorcerer casts cone of cold, does the same damage that a magister or DI would and has a chance of proccing random stuff.

Well-stated. Particularly the latter portion; even a Tier3 Shiradi first lifer is going to perform more efficiently than a Tier5 Magister or Draconic Incarnation simply because the two legitimate "arcane" destinies don't shore up caster deficiencies when they need to.

[anivaj]

Nerf Shiradi Sorc/Wiz and what are you left with?

Once DC casting is fixed (either by toning down mob DC saves or upping DI and Magister spell DC and spell pen), Shiradi will be less alluring except for those who don't have multiple TR's into a caster and still want to be somewhat effective and have some fun on EEs. Nerf down Shiradi at all (like Nerve Venom for instance) and you will kill off this option even though CC casting with some caster past lives is far more powerful when it works right.

EDIT: There is one very important advantage to keeping Shiradi the way it is now while boosting DI and Magister. New non-TR casters would still be viable with Shiradi even if they are less sought after than CC casters. This is important for new players who don't have a lot of TR's into toons. Epic Destinies ought to make builds fully viable without a ton of TR's. TR should just be the icing on the cake so to speak.

Nerve venom quite honestly is WAY too powerful as it is. Make it proc once per spell, then it might be reasonable, but allowing someone to throw one chain missile and have a better than 50/50 chance of no save stunning them for +50% damage for 6 seconds is just stupid. It requires NO investment, no feat, no enhancements, no spell items. Compared to a DC caster that needs all of the above AND debuffs to get the same or less effect.

Nerf nerve venom to either not work with spells OR only one proc per spell, then lower mob saves to make it easier to CC them with DCs and all will be right with the world

[anivaj]

Yep, meanwhile dropping all spell focus/spell pen feats, and maybe even all metas... though I have to play around more to see about metas and a sorc.

Yes, dump any kind of investment at all into an arcane and take the easy button of Shiradi. You guys REALLY dont see a nerf coming for something that requires ZERO effort?

[HungarianRhapsody]

Yes, dump any kind of investment at all into an arcane and take the easy button of Shiradi. You guys REALLY dont see a nerf coming for something that requires ZERO effort?

Since we're likely to get an LR when the Enhancement update comes, it seems entirely reasonable to do so.

I didn't drop my DC spell feats because I *like* my DC spells, but I absolutely understand why someone else might do so.

[SirValentine]

Once DC casting is fixed (either by toning down mob DC saves or upping DI and Magister spell DC and spell pen), Shiradi will be less alluring

I'm all for fixing DC-casting, but buffing Magister doesn't help the problem at all. Magister isn't helpful for the many DC casters who can't get any casting stat or caster levels from it.

[maximus123123]

Nerve venom quite honestly is WAY too powerful as it is. Make it proc once per spell, then it might be reasonable, but allowing someone to throw one chain missile and have a better than 50/50 chance of no save stunning them for +50% damage for 6 seconds is just stupid. It requires NO investment, no feat, no enhancements, no spell items. Compared to a DC caster that needs all of the above AND debuffs to get the same or less effect.

Nerf nerve venom to either not work with spells OR only one proc per spell, then lower mob saves to make it easier to CC them with DCs and all will be right with the world

All I hear is:

NERF THEM! BUFF ME!

[anivaj]

All I hear is:

That is all you hear because you probably enjoy easy buttons and don't care about balance.

[gerardIII]

My TR Palemaster used to be very good CC/instakill in pre-MotU epic, now he can't do anything as a Magister in Epic Elite.

[maximus123123]

That is all you hear because you probably enjoy easy buttons and don't care about balance.

You believe it's overpowered for the investment it takes.
I believe it's balanced just right especially for new players who want to play casters and aren't about to grind out thirteen past lives for spell pen and DC's.

In EE, it feels balanced just perfectly as is. It doesn't make EE's easy but it makes them slightly easier.

But you are right about one thing...a nerf will probably be coming, not because it's overpowered or not fun to play but because people like you are asking for it and Turbine is highly reactive to calls for nerfs.

BTW. I don't see a lot of LFM's that hold a position for a Shiradi caster.
I used to always see LFM's that held out for CC casters sometimes for almost an hour before DC casting was toned down.
So if that's any indication of OverPowered, CC casting was definitely that. Only the healer spot was more sought after than CC, but not by far...

[anivaj]

You believe it's overpowered for the investment it takes.
I believe it's balanced just right especially for new players who want to play casters and aren't about to grind out thirteen past lives for spell pen and DC's.

In EE, it feels balanced just perfectly as is. It doesn't make EE's easy but it makes them slightly easier.

But you are right about one thing...a nerf will probably be coming, not because it's overpowered or not fun to play but because people like you are asking for it and Turbine is highly reactive to calls for nerfs.

BTW. I don't see a lot of LFM's that hold a position for a Shiradi caster.
I used to always see LFM's that held out for CC casters sometimes for almost an hour before DC casting was toned down.
So if that's any indication of OverPowered, CC casting was definitely that. Only the healer spot was more sought after than CC, but not by far...

I'm sorry but first life DC casters were only 1 DC behind TRed casters (except for evoc and conj). However, to be viable they still needed to invest in feats, enhancements, and grind the gear. (They were behind on spell pen, but not enough that you HAD to TR with some non SR spells still being viable.) Having a first life caster that invests heavily to get good DCs be able to CC reliably with all that focus is good game design. Giving an ED an easy button for absolutely no investment at all is NOT good game design. Anyone fighting for nerve venom just doesnt want their easy button removed...

[maximus123123]

I'm sorry but first life DC casters were only 1 DC behind TRed casters (except for evoc and conj). However, to be viable they still needed to invest in feats, enhancements, and grind the gear. (They were behind on spell pen, but not enough that you HAD to TR with some non SR spells still being viable.) Having a first life caster that invests heavily to get good DCs be able to CC reliably with all that focus is good game design. Giving an ED an easy button for absolutely no investment at all is NOT good game design. Anyone fighting for nerve venom just doesnt want their easy button removed...

Investing feats into DC's is actually less of a grind than grinding out an Epic Destiny especially for a wizard that can get five extra feats for that purpose.

Gear is not as difficult a grind as you make it out to be (Twilight staff).

It's actually probably a good thing that DC casting was nerfed. It was getting kind of crazy waiting nearly an hour as the party leader carefully weeded through caster applications till the perfect purple squirrel was located.

[anivaj]

Investing feats into DC's is actually less of a grind than grinding out an Epic Destiny especially for a wizard that can get five extra feats for that purpose.

Gear is not as difficult a grind as you make it out to be (Twilight staff).

It's actually probably a good thing that DC casting was nerfed. It was getting kind of crazy waiting nearly an hour as the party leader carefully weeded through caster applications till the perfect purple squirrel was located.

Hmmm.....you either primarily play melee or shiradi sorcs.
1) I've run CitW over 100 times and never saw Twilight fall, even for someone else.
2) I'm sorry but getting to Shiradi from the arcane sphere and capping it is NOT that hard.
3) Feats are not a "grind", they are an investment. Nerve venom takes zero investment except 3 ED points, which are easily managable.
4) Why when DC casting comes up do people always think we are talking about only arcanes.

Before EDs and eGH, any casting class could get good endgame DCs on a first life toon. Now it is very difficult for other classes besides wizards to afford the feat investment for anything but one school, making them inefficient at anything else.

As for the fear of having to wait on an uber DC caster, that is clearly not the case currently in EEs. A lot of different party combinations can pass EEs if they work together and use good tactics. A great CC caster is only needed if the party is gimp to begin with. I quite honestly enjoyed assisting newer players through old epics on my wizard, but apparently a lot of the team players left DDO while a lot of the selfish, "I want to lead the kill count" players stayed and are playing Shiradi sorcs

[knightgf]

So, if I read this right, the main power of Shiradi is that with all the 5-7% chance at extra damage buffs with quantity spells like MM, it can be a highly-damaging Epic Destiny. Honestly, now that I understand it a bit more, it may not be as worthy of a nerf as some believe. In fact, I think its a great idea, but the problem is DC casting, as many have said, is near-worthless with Epic Gianthold. But I honestly am not certain, its all a big mess if you ask me, and I can't sort it out.

[maximus123123]

1) I've run CitW over 100 times and never saw Twilight fall, even for someone else.

Before EDs and eGH, any casting class could get good endgame DCs on a first life toon.

I find it hard to believe Twilight didn't fall in 100 runs.
I've run CITW 60 times and have seen it drop multiple times and on 20th's.
So I call BS.

It's not just about DC's but also spell pen. The problem was never DC's for the reason you could up them with items, your primary stat, and feats. CC casters also had to go through Wizard and FvS lives to be viable.
This is what Shiradi currently gives new players who might otherwise quit playing casters or quit DDO due to the grind requirements.

Epic Destinies should (as Shiradi does) make a non-TR toon viable end game.

[anivaj]

I find it hard to believe Twilight didn't fall in 100 runs.
I've run CITW 60 times and have seen it drop multiple times and on 20th's.
So I call BS.

You do realize what random means right? And I didnt get any 20s as these runs were spread between numerous lives and toons.

It's not just about DC's but also spell pen. The problem was never DC's for the reason you could up them with items, your primary stat, and feats. CC casters also had to go through Wizard and FvS lives to be viable.
This is what Shiradi currently gives new players who might otherwise quit playing casters or quit DDO due to the grind requirements.

This statement further clarifies to me that you have never played a DC caster at endgame. There are numerous spells that bypass SR as long as you have decent DCs. Players that quit because they don't look for other options besides mashing the same 4-5 spells all day are not missed by most of the DDO populace. First life casters that were played intelligently were extremely viable in old epics.

Responses in red...

Also, you are advocating for making it EASY for new players or people too lazy to put effort into their toons. Handing new 1st life or lazy players an OPed ED and letting them be uber without any thought or effort is not why I was attracted to DDO. Tactics, planning, coordination, and yes some grinding is expected if you want to be viable in end game content. Otherwise, you are just asking for an easy button, plain and simple...

[jalont]

Epic Destinies should (as Shiradi does) make a non-TR toon viable end game.

I don't necessarily disagree, just wonder why you think this.

[Artos_Fabril]

EE GH mobs saves is too high. Which made lot of EDs that focused/have DC abilities seem bad right now. Fix saves, boost weak ED like unyieling, etc. and it will solve the problem, no need to nerf anything.

I agree with the other two posters. Shiradi casters aren't doing insane damage compared to melee and ranged characters. They are far more effective in end-game EE's than DC-based casters because the DC's are just too hard to reach on a lot of the enemies. I've seen LD and FoTW melee builds shame Shiradi casters, seen FoTW ranged builds mow down EE bosses, etc...it's just that DC-based casting is bad enough in EE that Shiradi's lack of DC-reliance looks exploity in comparison.

Nerf Shiradi Sorc/Wiz and what are you left with?

Once DC casting is fixed (either by toning down mob DC saves or upping DI and Magister spell DC and spell pen), Shiradi will be less alluring except for those who don't have multiple TR's into a caster and still want to be somewhat effective and have some fun on EEs. Nerf down Shiradi at all (like Nerve Venom for instance) and you will kill off this option even though CC casting with some caster past lives is far more powerful when it works right.

EDIT: There is one very important advantage to keeping Shiradi the way it is now while boosting DI and Magister. New non-TR casters would still be viable with Shiradi even if they are less sought after than CC casters. This is important for new players who don't have a lot of TR's into toons. Epic Destinies ought to make builds fully viable without a ton of TR's. TR should just be the icing on the cake so to speak.

I wonder if the DCs being currently prohibitively high is because they were balanced against a build of the game running the enhancement pass: A Pale Master with a secondary PrE as a Necromancy Archmage would have significantly less trouble hitting those insta-kill DCs.

[anivaj]

I don't necessarily disagree, just wonder why you think this.

I don't disagree either. 1st life toons shouldnt be that much weaker than multiple TRs. What the poster apparently has no clue of is that they WERE extremely viable even before EDs, as long as they didnt expect to mash the same 4-5 buttons all day. Hence the beauty of DDO BEFORE EDs and eGH...

[maximus123123]

Also, you are advocating for making it EASY for new players or people too lazy to put effort into their toons. Handing new 1st life or lazy players an OPed ED and letting them be uber without any thought or effort is not why I was attracted to DDO. Tactics, planning, coordination, and yes some grinding is expected if you want to be viable in end game content. Otherwise, you are just asking for an easy button, plain and simple...

Because it's sooo difficult to select this feat over that feat when building a DC caster....

Tactics, planning and coordination are required whether you play a DC caster or a Shiradi caster.

A good player is still a good player with either. The difference is, one requires a pretty hefty grind while the other does not and that has you upset.

Epic Destinies ought to make first life toons viable end game (TRs only being the icing on the cake). It should be about player skill not how much free time you have on your hands to grind !

[anivaj]

I wonder if the DCs being currently prohibitively high is because they were balanced against a build of the game running the enhancement pass: A Pale Master with a secondary PrE as a Necromancy Archmage would have significantly less trouble hitting those insta-kill DCs.

Two more DC is not going to make a world of difference with these high DCs. I think they must have balanced DCs against a monk's stunning fist, because not much else is able to reliably reach them.