Iron Shiradi: Less is More?

[Darkrok]

I don't know... the problem I think is one cannot spam spells and shoot arrows at the same time. If you end up shooting arrows why not shoot harder and get rid of spells totally?

Because I don't think anything but the bursts (10k stars/manyshot) compares to the damage the caster side can do consistently as long as the blue-bar is still there. And then there's the blue-bar damage you can do when you really open up and go full-out with the nukes. Most builds I've seen account for the lack of big ranged damage between the bursts by supplementing with melee. I'm curious if you could bridge the gap between the bursts with casting instead and then have unbursted ranged damage as a fall-back to both. There are some fights (EE FoT for example) where there's so many hp's on the stuff you're killing that you'd love to have a decent non-sp option for damage on a spellcaster. Otherwise you end up potting all the time. Sure, you can do that...the question is whether you can build an option that gives enough ranged damage as to be worthwhile for those longer fights.

[loren9109]

Because I don't think anything but the bursts (10k stars/manyshot) compares to the damage the caster side can do consistently as long as the blue-bar is still there. And then there's the blue-bar damage you can do when you really open up and go full-out with the nukes. Most builds I've seen account for the lack of big ranged damage between the bursts by supplementing with melee. I'm curious if you could bridge the gap between the bursts with casting instead and then have unbursted ranged damage as a fall-back to both. There are some fights (EE FoT for example) where there's so many hp's on the stuff you're killing that you'd love to have a decent non-sp option for damage on a spellcaster. Otherwise you end up potting all the time. Sure, you can do that...the question is whether you can build an option that gives enough ranged damage as to be worthwhile for those longer fights.

I play mostly an arcane and I'm using shiradi ED myself, but watching some videos of monkcher and juggernaut performance I think their routine dps already surpassed what a shiradi caster can do. On the other hand I don't really think a caster can go "all out" in EE scenarios anymore. Maybe it's my conservative playstyle and reluctance to do reentries or drink pots... But I do think good weapon builds are killing things faster now than arcanes...

[Darkrok]

I play mostly an arcane and I'm using shiradi ED myself, but watching some videos of monkcher and juggernaut performance I think their routine dps already surpassed what a shiradi caster can do. On the other hand I don't really think a caster can go "all out" in EE scenarios anymore. Maybe it's my conservative playstyle and reluctance to do reentries or drink pots... But I do think good weapon builds are killing things faster now than arcanes...

You may be right. That hasn't been my experience as far as kill counts go (that's all I really have to go on to compare the two as I haven't played a ranged build) but I usually greatly outkill the ranged toons. But that could go down to play style, focus (I'm usually more focused on splashing damage around to get CC than on any one enemy, meaning I'm more likely to kill stuff the group isn't focused on at the time), and player ability more than build. I'd honestly have to play a few of those ranged builds to have an opinion on the damage though.

Now, I played with a really good barbarian the other night. He put my shiradi dinking and dunking to shame. Seriously crazy dps. Not as survivable obviously but it didn't seem to matter since everything was just falling over dead in EE c3 quests. So to those saying Shiradi is overpowered...the answer is they're only OP'd right now compared to DC casting.

[cforce]

Anyways I think the main reason there are very few splashes deeper than 18/2 is that +3 or higher hearts of wood don't grow on trees and investing too much solely on something that is likely to change in a month or two may be too expensive. One simple change such as making missiles counted as one proc may turn such builds into total gimp in no time.

I just wanted to emphasize this in case there are a bunch of folks reading this thread and "making plans". I'll go on the record and say: I'll be shocked if the Shiradi behavior isn't changed to one proc chance per cast within 3 updates. Reducing the entire arcane spell line to four spells can't have been the intended consequence when they dreamed up Shiradi. For god's sake, don't build anything like this unless you're ready to TR as soon as it's rendered useless!

[HungarianRhapsody]

You need more survivability? Go palemaster instead of archmage. You are immune to everything and have increased dr(boon, hp proc) renuncing at the evocation sla. But double death aura+ice storm+necrotic blast give a lot of aoe procs every second for really few sp.

Pale Master is essentially immortal on EN and EH. On EE, they fall apart because the enormous DR that they effectively have (stacking real DR with boon and hp proc as you point out) doesn't mean much when the hits change from 30 HP hits to 200 HP hits and because the only self healing that you have are the Aura and the Negative Energy Burst. The two of those just don't do enough to take care of EE damage and your ability to completely ignore your red bar on EN and EH teaches you sloppy play because HP are irrelevant to you until you actually step in to those EE quests.

[HalfORCastrator]

As I said above -- I agree with previous points about HP and PRR not actually making a marginal difference in EE, and not being worth building for. That being said, I noted a few different things in your build comparison that prevent it from being a correct apples-to-apples comparison, at least based on what I initially laid out. In the interest of making sure the facts presented in the thread are square, here's what I'd noticed:

- Your 18/2 build seems to be in every stance at the same time! Ocean seems most important; I'll assume he's in ocean stance in EE content most of the time.
- You used unearthly reactions for the 18/2, but not for any of the others.
- You gave the 18/2 the +15artifact bonus to PRR, but not to the others
- You maxed out the toughness enhancements for the 18/2, but neither of the other builds
- You compare only reflex. Fort and Will save are more important now than they have been.
- Most importantly, you seem to be missing one of my key points, which is to not bother with DC or SP on the deeper splashes. Both of your paladin-splash breakouts don't pump CHA, and spend lots of "unnecessary" feats on Spell Pen.
- One in the other direction: I think Mithral Body caps dodge at 5% (can anyone confirm?), so the pally-splash builds probably wouldn't get the extra PRR.

Here's what I'd suggest is a more apples-to-apples comparison, changes highlighted:



Like I said above, I'm not arguing for the HP/PRR being a good idea anymore. That being said, there's still a *significant* difference in saving throw potential. Whether or not that's overkill is debatable, but I'd have a tough time believing the 18 wiz/2 monk quite gets to "makes every save on a 2" in EE content. The combined mitigation of dodge/prr in the pally splash cases are also non-trivially higher than the 18 wiz/monk (but again, probably not enough to avoid kiting in EE).

1. No, not in every stance at the same time. I calculated with and without stance, to show the difference depending on which stance the caster's in. But I do agree that water stance is the best.
2. Assuming 4/2/1, Energy Burst/X/Y or Legendary Shield Mastery for pal splashes. I chose Endless Faith over Unearthly Reactions because of the lack of sp already suffered.
3. Completely missed it.
3.5. I incorporated Litany before seeing you mentioned Prowess. I left it alone because I didn't care to change -1 ref save(I didn't use it in cha calculations so no loss there) and sp after I'd typed everything. You used it in your calculations so you'll want to make changes there.
4. Was less about maxing toughness enhancements and more about not wasting ap. Don't want to use 3 ap on 10hp. MUCH better places on a caster. I assumed racial and class enhs(didn't bother checking), the 18/2 should have 20 less hp, the 16/2/2 10 less hp, and the 12/6/2 11 less hp.
5. The other saves are less important(buffs, equipment, etc), and WF have immunities to most of the Will save, and some Fort save, worries.
6. I didn't bother with DC anymore than I had to. The int enhs and dc feats are needed as prereqs for archmage. Spell pen, if not completely dumped like on the 12/6/2, is worth it to me for Ottos Irresistable and Power Words. Definitely more than a bit more hp.
6.5. I pumped cha as much as I thought worth it. But if you expect dumping int this far on these builds, might as well go 16cha/16 int instead of 18int/14cha. Staying functional in epic hard(and heroic, if you don't want to pay gobs of plat/tp for LRs) is a priority that should be met, imo. And there are already sp issues, dumping int will make it worse. Though I guess if you're fine with an Elixaholic, yikes...
7. You're right. With artifact bonus, but without light armor prr: 16/2/2=60prr=30% / 12/6/2=80=35%(does prr round up in-game? If so, 36% like you stated)

In my calculations I assumed Dodge feat over the extra Toughness.

I didn't place Mobility in selected feats because it can be had with Surefooted Boots, which is usually an iffy slot on my casters post U17, though I didn't figure any concrete setups for these builds. That said, I generally kept in mind the better items and 2% dodge(besides Mobility from an item-that seems to be bugged for 1% on my rogue) is on what item that's good in endgame setups?

[jakeelala]

I did my own version of this on my main, Deflection('s) last life 4-6 months ago. Half elf, 12 wizard, 6 arty 2 ranger. Somael (HalfORCastrator) ran with him a lot. He was beast.

He was an evo archmage, and weilded a rune arm and the best repeaters I could find. I also had a pinion. He ran in shiradi, full ranged feats for AA, many shot, IPS. Insightful on the xbow, just Str on the Manyshot. Honestly the archery aspect of this build ended up being superflous, the runearm/needle was good enough. Shiradi is not a terrible ranged damage ED, and of course OVER9000 on SLA CM/MM. I also chained in un-meta'd (cept quicken) MM/CM/FM for CC with nerve venom. I had coocoon which was plenty. It was basically: SLA/SLA/PEWPEWPEW/MM/CM/FM/PEWPEWPEW/Repeat. Needle for DPS, alchem for CC (or eDoublecross), etc. I called it the Arcane Artillery build.

This build was awesome. 2 monk would have been better and so would skipping the AA part. I've since rerolled him, but created a fresh 32 WF version (12 wiz 6 arty 2 monk) version just so I'll always have that build to play. That's how much fun it was. When you realize the VAST majority of the power of shiradi/AM is finished with at Wiz 12, you start to realize you can do ALL KINDS OF WEIRD SHIZ with just 12 Wiz /AM3 Shiradi. There's lots more I want to try, but that's one I tried so far.

No one in my guild believed me that it was going to be a rockstar. But I knew the Shiradi and AM gained virtually nothing after Wiz 12*

*There is one notable exception to this rule: Wizard enhancements for Crit multi and % chance. Those are unfortunately are level restricted.

[Myrddinman]

I did my own version of this on my main, Deflection('s) last life. Half elf, 12 wizard, 6 arty 2 ranger. Somael (HalfORCastrator) ran with him a lot. He was beast.

He was an evo archmage, and weilded a rune arm and the best repeaters I could find. I also had a pinion. He ran in shiradi, full ranged feats for AA, many shot, IPS. Insightful on the xbow, just Str on the Manyshot. Honestly the archery aspect of this build ended up being superflous, the runearm/needle was good enough. Shiradi is not a terrible ranged damage ED, and of course OVER9000 on SLA CM/MM. I also chained in un-meta'd (cept quicken) MM/CM/FM for CC with nerve venom. I had coocoon which was plenty. It was basically: SLA/SLA/PEWPEWPEW/MM/CM/FM/PEWPEWPEW/Repeat. Needle for DPS, alchem for CC (or eDoublecross), etc.

This build was awesome. 2 monk would have been better and so would skipping the AA part. I've since rerolled him, but created a fresh 32 WF version (12 wiz 6 arty 2 monk) version just so I'll always have that build to play. That's how much fun it was. When you realize the VAST majority of the power of shiradi/AM is finished with at Wiz 12, you start to realize you can do ALL KINDS OF WEIRD SHIZ with just 12 Wiz /AM3 Shiradi. There's lots more I want to try, but that's one I tried so far.

No one in my guild believed me that it was going to be a rockstar. But I knew the Shiradi and AM gained virtually nothing after Wiz 12*

*There is one notable exception to this rule: Wizard enhancements for Crit multi and % chance. Those are unfortunately are level restricted.

I can attest to the absolute blast this build (WizAM12/Arty6/2Monk) is, and I don't even have any gear, Rune Arm, or Shiradi yet (currently lvl 18: Wiz15/Monk2/Arty1).

I still have 1 more LR to do when it's off timer (next week) to bring it to Wiz12/Arty5/2Monk (should be lvl 19 in a few days or less).

[legendlore]

I can attest to the absolute blast this build (WizAM12/Arty6/2Monk) is

Adding another vote for the fun of the wiz/arti combo, it's a lot of fun, self sufficient and versatile.

While I usually melee on my build (wiz 13, arti 6, fighter 1) I generally use shiradi for raids (the sustainable non spell point dps is nice for raiding) and some epic elite content.


On the original topic; I find the deep splash on wizard a worthy tradeoff, while you do lose out on some of the high level spells in my case it adds a lot of survivability (I wear plate for full prr) and has a lot of additional bonuses such as trap skills, full umd etc.

[Darkrok]

I had coocoon which was plenty.

I kind of suspected that. With enough healing amp cocoon is quite a bit of healing for 12sp's and a nice mitigation toward a second hit to boot. I almost question whether that build would find it worthwhile to take the monk dilettante. Grouped it wouldn't really be needed but solo you could really boost up the healing amp (271% with full items and ship buffs possible) and that's un-centered. Centered you could get it to 339% with a swap to Jidz'tetka if you ever felt the need. Just running in my typical gear for my 18/2 warforged could get you to 247% and when you factor in the nice boost you can get to scrolls from those arti levels heal scrolls would be hitting for a ton as well.

[cforce]

HalfORCastrator, I follow your rationale. This starts to get into much more loose, subjective opinions on how to draw the right comparison, so it's probably not much worth debating further. You may be right that the other saves aren't as important, or that the extra reflex save might be overkill. A big part of my point wasn't whether or not it was a great idea, but simply pointing out that you *could* get them that high by sacrificing a few more wizard levels. Bottom line is: now everyone who reads this thread has 6 different fully fleshed out data points for comparison, and can draw their own conclusions, and that's great!

I love all of the Monk/Arti builds coming in and voicing their support of the general thesis (sacrificing wizard levels is now a *good* idea). While I'm still in "crazy brainstorming mode", though, are there any other class splashes that are even worth considering on the AM 12 platform?

[voodoogroves]

I love all of the Monk/Arti builds coming in and voicing their support of the general thesis (sacrificing wizard levels is now a *good* idea). While I'm still in "crazy brainstorming mode", though, are there any other class splashes that are even worth considering on the AM 12 platform?

Contemplating Monk 6 / Ranger 2 for my WF stunner. I'd actually be somewhat WIS based - but I figure stunned thing in an ice storm or fire wall is taking more damage, plus recon + tensers. I've not done the math, but there'd be an option for 10k stars and / or Manyshot as well.

[jakeelala]

HalfORCastrator, I follow your rationale. This starts to get into much more loose, subjective opinions on how to draw the right comparison, so it's probably not much worth debating further. You may be right that the other saves aren't as important, or that the extra reflex save might be overkill. A big part of my point wasn't whether or not it was a great idea, but simply pointing out that you *could* get them that high by sacrificing a few more wizard levels. Bottom line is: now everyone who reads this thread has 6 different fully fleshed out data points for comparison, and can draw their own conclusions, and that's great!

I love all of the Monk/Arti builds coming in and voicing their support of the general thesis (sacrificing wizard levels is now a *good* idea). While I'm still in "crazy brainstorming mode", though, are there any other class splashes that are even worth considering on the AM 12 platform?

HalfORC is just mad because my 12Wiz/6Arty/2Ranger blasted right along side his Shiradi sorc and then ranged with fusillade when things were on cooldown or out of SP (we're guildies).

I don't think the purely defensive versio nis worth it, too much DPS loss for something that frankly (staying alive) it's really that much of a problem. The Arty combo has a huge synergies, especially on rune arms and with insightful damage on the xbow.

Mine was a WF Arty the life before, and I basically played him as a more fun, more effective, higher damage Arty. You know, the SLA's have LONG cooldowns. Being able to hit for 3-600 damage per volley with needle (avg) is awfully nice in between. Or Pin. Or Otto's Whistler. Or more Nerve Venom on the bolts. With IPS. It's a crwod control MACHINE with no DC's.

And no, not having Meteor Swarm IS NOT the worst part of only having 12 wizard levels. The Enhancements are.

[korsat]

Pale Master is essentially immortal on EN and EH. On EE, they fall apart because the enormous DR that they effectively have (stacking real DR with boon and hp proc as you point out) doesn't mean much when the hits change from 30 HP hits to 200 HP hits and because the only self healing that you have are the Aura and the Negative Energy Burst. The two of those just don't do enough to take care of EE damage and your ability to completely ignore your red bar on EN and EH teaches you sloppy play because HP are irrelevant to you until you actually step in to those EE quests.

I see the point, so do you think palemastets are useless on EE? You don't have to tank trash in EE I think... Death aura is more sp efficient than reconstruct

[cforce]

I see the point, so do you think palemastets are useless on EE? You don't have to tank trash in EE I think... Death aura is more sp efficient than reconstruct

Pale Masters aren't useless in current endgame EE. It's just that *none* of their usefulness comes from being a Pale Master anymore. The boost to Necro DCs doesn't put them in "reliable" territory, the self-healing is no longer "better than Reconstruct" as plan A, and the SLAs are a drop in the bucket.

Pale Masters can still provide value... by choosing Shiradi and/or twisting Energy Burst. It's just that Archmages get *more* value out of these same options, by virtue of their SLAs.