Iron Shiradi: Less is More?

[Ancient]

That has been my experience, yes.

[HalfORCastrator]

Hm, I getcha. Paraphrasing, hit points and PRR still matter, but only if we're talking about *much* higher values (1500's and 150's). Lower values don't allow you to stop kiting if you've got aggro. That about sum it up?

This is what I was saying. You already have enough to do everything you want to do, you just end up losing out on other important areas.


But, I calculated somewhat for the three builds:


WF 18wiz/2mnk-shiradi5
18int +6lvls +5tome +8itm +3ins +1exc +1profane +2yugo +2ship =45 +3enhs =48
18con +4tome +7itm +2ins +1exc +1profane +2ship +1enh +2rage =38
10wis+4tome
12cha


feats(7gen, 4wiz, 2mnk, 2epc):
max-wiz
quick-wiz
evo focus-wiz
mental tuff-wiz

tuff-mnk
dodge/tuff-mnk

gr evo focus
spell pen
gr spell pen
ins reflex
imp mental tuff
tuffx2

ep spell pen
ep tuff


hp: 20heroic +10argo +30gfl +20toughnessitem +45hpitem +50epic +16mnk +72wiz +50epictoughnessfeats +81toughnessfeat +350con +40toughnessenhs =784 +25earthstance =809

dodge: 4mnk +4item +3item +3dodgefeat +3magister +2mobilityitem +3/6shiradi +1waterstance=23/26(25)%

prr: 14augment +15art +3earthstance =16%/18%

refsave: 9base +2epic +7resitem +4supparry +2goodluck +4gh +19int =47 +6unearthly =53 +2waterstance =55

80base+930wiz+513int+150gs+200archmagiequip+80larg eslot+80energyscholar+100shiradi+250archmage-75slas=2458 *1.1 =2703

//

WF 16wiz/2pal/2mnk-shiradi5
18int +6lvls +5tome +8itm +3ins +1exc +1profane +2yugo +2ship =45 +3enhs =48
18con +4tome +7itm +2ins +1exc +1profane +2ship +1enh +2rage =38
14cha +4tome +8itm +2ins +2ship =30


feats(7gen, 4wiz, 2mnk, 2epc):
max-wiz
quick-wiz
evo focus-wiz
mental tuff-wiz

tuff-mnk
dodge/tuff-mnk

gr evo focus
spell pen
gr spell pen
ins reflex
imp mental tuff
shield mastery
imp shield mastery

ep spell pen
ep tuff


hp: 20heroic +10argo +30gfl +20toughnessitem +45hpitem +50epic +20pal +16mnk +64wiz +50epictoughnessfeats +27toughnessfeats +350con +40toughnessenhs =730

dodge: 4item +3item +3dodgefeat +2mobilityitem +3/6shiradi =15/18%

prr: 15sheltering +14lightarmor +15largeshieldmasteries =44(23%)
+15shieldmasterytwist =59(29%)

refsave: 8base +2epic +7resitem +4supparry +2goodluck +4gh +19int +10cha =56

80base+755wiz+475int+150gs+200archmagiequip+80larg eslot+80energyscholar+100shiradi+250archmage-75slas=2095 *1.1 =2304 (~-15% from 18wiz)


//

WF 12wiz/6pal/2mnk-shiradi5
18int +6lvls +5tome +8itm +3ins +1exc +1profane +2yugo +2ship =45 +3enhs =48
18con +4tome +7itm +2ins +1exc +1profane +2ship +1enh +2rage =38 +2dosstance =40
14cha +4tome +8itm +2ins +2ship =30


feats(7gen, 3wiz, 2mnk, 2epc):
max-wiz
quick-wiz
evo focus-wiz

tuff-mnk
dodge/tuff-mnk

gr evo focus
ins reflex
imp mental tuff
shield mastery
imp shield mastery
tuff
mental tuff

ep tuffx2


hp: 20heroic +10argo +30gfl +20toughnessitem +45hpitem +50epic +60pal +16mnk +48wiz +100epictoughnessfeats +54toughnessfeats +375con +40toughnessenhs =868 *1.1 =954

dodge: 4item +3item +3dodgefeat +2mobilityitem +3/6shiradi =15/18% (assuming you get passed the max dodge bonus of the shield)

prr: 15sheltering +14lightarmor +15largeshieldmasteries =44(23%)
+15shieldmasterytwist =59(29%)
+20dos =64(31%) +15shieldmasterytwist =79(35%)

refsave: 9base +2epic +7resitem +4supparry +2goodluck +4gh +19int +10cha +1dos=58

80base+465wiz+399int+150gs+200archmagiequip+80larg eslot+80energyscholar+100shiradi+250archmage-75slas=1729 *1.1 =1901 (~-30% from 18wiz)

Much less spell pen for PW:K/S and Otto's Irresistable.


EDIT:

How much wisdom to make 10k stars worthwhile?

48 is what his monkcher has.

14wis+4tome+8item+3ins+1exc+1enh=31+6lvls=37+1some where=38

So, for a shiradi wiz+10kstars, around 38. Maybe more if you really want to go with boosting wis over int or cha.

EDIT:
Corrected stuff.

EDIT:
Corrected/added stuff.

[AtomicMew]

It's not a good concept.

You're missing out on meteor swarm which is arguably more important than chain missiles. You're missing out on caster levels for chain missile, niacs and eladars and damage enhancements for force and also a ton of SP. 18/2 splits can already solo every EE quest in the game, there's no need for more defenses.

[Ancient]

It's not a good concept.

You're missing out on meteor swarm which is arguably more important than chain missiles. You're missing out on caster levels for chain missile, niacs and eladars and damage enhancements for force and also a ton of SP. 18/2 splits can already solo every EE quest in the game, there's no need for more defenses.

Meteor storm is a good point. From what I read Chain missile gives 10 secondary missiles no matter what... has this changed? Niac's and Eladar's cap out at 15, it shouldn't be hard to get them augmented to that level. The fact that a build exists that can solo doesn't mean exploring other builds is pointless. Some of the splashes end up with MORE force enhancements and many of the others either have more spell points or have an additional mana-free way to get procs.

I'm not sure Meteor storm by itself invalidates the concept of a deep splash on a Shiradi arcane.

[xTethx]

Meh, in a few months everyone will literally have a 18/2 wf version caster and the full tier defender line. Talk about more easy buttons

[HalfORCastrator]

Meh, in a few months everyone will literally have a 18/2 wf version caster and the full tier defender line. Talk about more easy buttons

I'll still be chugging along with my itty bitty barbarian.

[FuzzyDuck81]

I have an 18wiz/2monk which is a lot of fun & prefer having the extra high level spells available - with a decent bit of spellpower, even unmeta'ed meteor swarms, black dragon bolt, polar ray & incendiary cloud are pretty decent, plus there are power word spells, symbol of death, wail of the banshee (as a debuffer rather than instakill), irresistible dance etc.. not everything you fight has spell resistance after all.

Still, your build could be interesting, will definitely be very survivable & depending on how many things you're cycling, you could get yourself an extra situational boost if necessary by firing off bladesworn transformation if you go with that faith line - it doesn't block casting any more (just increases cooldown) & since it's a profane bonus will stack with tensers... ok your positive energy healing will be blocked but reconstruct still works fine

[cforce]

You're missing out on meteor swarm which is arguably more important than chain missiles. You're missing out on caster levels for chain missile, niacs and eladars and damage enhancements for force and also a ton of SP. 18/2 splits can already solo every EE quest in the game, there's no need for more defenses.

Yeah, I was waiting for someone to point out Meteor Swarm. In my opinion, it's the biggest hole in the argument I put forth. That being said, Meteor Swarm is a big expensive spell. Are the folks who are soloing EE with an 18/2 Shiradi split actually using MS very much during an EE solo? It's many, many times the cost of Chain Missiles, especially if you compare to the Chain Missiles SLA.

I've noticed that absolutely *no-one* has argued the case for a Wizard 20 as being a "better wizard". Everyone's come in with "you get a lot of value from a 2-level splash - after that, it's overkill". Anyone want to make a case for pure, or is it an accepted fact at this point that pure wizards are underpowered compared to 18/2 splits? (Yes, I'm intentionally baiting folks.)

[loren9109]

Yeah, I was waiting for someone to point out Meteor Swarm. In my opinion, it's the biggest hole in the argument I put forth. That being said, Meteor Swarm is a big expensive spell. Are the folks who are soloing EE with an 18/2 Shiradi split actually using MS very much during an EE solo? It's many, many times the cost of Chain Missiles, especially if you compare to the Chain Missiles SLA.

The rakshasas for example casts nightshield (or shield?) on themselves and if you have only missiles in rotation suddenly it feels like a PM facing deathwarded mobs. Moreover your lvl5 dot damage is only ~66% of that of a pure so they will likely put a huge dent in your already lacking blue bar. Abbot is another example; your build being dc-dumped, your disintegrate will do very little damage.

[cforce]

The rakshasas for example casts nightshield (or shield?) on themselves and if you have only missiles in rotation suddenly it feels like a PM facing deathwarded mobs. Moreover your lvl5 dot damage is only ~66% of that of a pure so they will likely put a huge dent in your already lacking blue bar. Abbot is another example; your build being dc-dumped, your disintegrate will do very little damage.

Point taken, although aren't scorching ray and frost lance a fallback position? Again, far lower cost to take them down with these than a much more expensive Meteor Swarm, right? Also, I concede that pure wizard is much more effective in Heroic levels -- only really care about endgame comparisons where shiradi would be active. Is Abbot still a difficult takedown for a group of Epic level characters? (Not rhetorical -- I genuinely don't know.) If not, then who cares? I'd rather optimize for the hardest fights.

[cforce]

As a quick aside, in case it's not already obvious: I've already conceded that you wouldn't actually want to run the 12/6/2 INT-dumped build (and didn't really seriously think it was a good idea in the first place). For those who don't already know this from the forums, I like to continue to take a devil's advocate position and hash out the finer points, as there's still a lot to learn from the discussion.

[Darkrok]

I run a WF Pale Master now, and I can tell you his survivability is poor in EE's, especially the new ones. Death Aura doesn't keep up, and NEB isn't a big enough heal to bridge the gap.

The other thing to keep in mind is that the more sp's you have free the more often you can shoot off meta'd spells which equals faster completions.

Why do I bring this up in response to the death aura/neb? Because there's an ability from Shiradi that gets ignored by some people when they talk about WF'd casters - Healing Spring. I've found that playing like the old-school caster, kiting and moving constantly, means that you can avoid getting hit most of the time. When you do get hit, even on EE, assuming a large enough HP pool and a solid Fortification, you can hold off on hitting the reconstruct button. Often that every 20 second heal is enough to keep you topped off which means far less reconstructing and far more sp's available for meta'd nuking.

You have to build/gear for this a bit but I've found it highly effective to use the PDK gloves, 20%/+4 resist bracers, and 2 tiers of WF Healer's Friend. That's 109% healing w/o the ship buff which makes the spring a workable source of self-healing. In EH and below it's all I ever need and in EE's it probably saves me a good 200-250sp's per run. Now I do have my reconstruct key tied to my mouse's extra button so it's very easy for me to pop off that recon at exactly the moment I need it but as long as you've got the hp's to survive at least one more hit it's workable in most EE's.

[cforce]

/breakdown snipped

As I said above -- I agree with previous points about HP and PRR not actually making a marginal difference in EE, and not being worth building for. That being said, I noted a few different things in your build comparison that prevent it from being a correct apples-to-apples comparison, at least based on what I initially laid out. In the interest of making sure the facts presented in the thread are square, here's what I'd noticed:

- Your 18/2 build seems to be in every stance at the same time! Ocean seems most important; I'll assume he's in ocean stance in EE content most of the time.
- You used unearthly reactions for the 18/2, but not for any of the others.
- You gave the 18/2 the +15artifact bonus to PRR, but not to the others
- You maxed out the toughness enhancements for the 18/2, but neither of the other builds
- You compare only reflex. Fort and Will save are more important now than they have been.
- Most importantly, you seem to be missing one of my key points, which is to not bother with DC or SP on the deeper splashes. Both of your paladin-splash breakouts don't pump CHA, and spend lots of "unnecessary" feats on Spell Pen.
- One in the other direction: I think Mithral Body caps dodge at 5% (can anyone confirm?), so the pally-splash builds probably wouldn't get the extra PRR.

Here's what I'd suggest is a more apples-to-apples comparison, changes highlighted:

WF 18wiz/2mnk-shiradi5
18int +6lvls +5tome +8itm +3ins +1exc +1profane +2yugo +2ship =45 +3enhs =48
18con +4tome +7itm +2ins +1exc +1profane +2ship +1enh +2rage =38
10wis+4tome
12cha


feats(7gen, 4wiz, 2mnk, 2epc):
max-wiz
quick-wiz
evo focus-wiz
mental tuff-wiz

tuff-mnk
dodge-mnk

gr evo focus
spell pen
gr spell pen
ins reflex
imp mental tuff
tuffx2

ep spell pen
ep tuff


hp: 20heroic +10argo +30gfl +20toughnessitem +45hpitem +50epic +16mnk +72wiz +50epictoughnessfeats +81toughnessfeat +350con +40toughnessenhs =784

dodge: 4mnk +4item +3item +3dodgefeat +3magister +2mobilityitem +3/6shiradi +1waterstance=23/26(25)%

prr: 14augment +15art +3earthstance =16%/18%

refsave: 9base +2epic +7resitem +4supparry +2goodluck +4gh +19int =47 +6unearthly =53 +2waterstance =55
fortsave: 9base +2epic +7resitem +4supparry +2goodluck +4gh +14con =42 +2waterstance =44
willsave: 14base +2epic +7resitem +4supparry +2goodluck +4gh +2wis =35 +2waterstance =37


//

WF 16wiz/2pal/2mnk-shiradi5
18int +5tome +8itm +3ins +1exc +1profane +2yugo +2ship =45 +3enhs =42
18con +4tome +7itm +2ins +1exc +1profane +2ship +1enh +2rage =38
14cha +6levels +5tome +8itm +3ins +1exc +1profane +2yugo +2ship =42
12wis +4tome =16 (You gave no equip for wis in the first, so I did likewise.)


feats(7gen, 4wiz, 2mnk, 2epc):
max-wiz
quick-wiz
evo focus-wiz
mental tuff-wiz

tuff-mnk
[b]dodge[\b]-mnk

gr evo focus
mobility
tuff#2
ins reflex
imp mental tuff
shield mastery
imp shield mastery

tuff #3
ep tuff


hp: 20heroic +10argo +30gfl +20toughnessitem +45hpitem +50epic +20pal +16mnk +64wiz +50epictoughnessfeats +81toughnessfeats +350con +50toughnessenhs =794

dodge: 4item +3item +2item +6feats +3 magister +3/6shiradi =21/24% (I replaced the mobility item with a +2 dodge item to keep equipment slots even)

prr: 15sheltering +15largeshieldmasteries +15art =45(23%)
+15shieldmasterytwist = 60(30%)

refsave: 8base +2epic +7resitem +4supparry +2goodluck +4gh +16int +16cha +1aura =60 +6unearthly=66
fortsave: 11base +2epic +7resitem +4supparry +2goodluck +4gh +14con +16cha +1 aura =61
willsave: 13base +2epic +7resitem +4supparry +2goodluck +4gh +3wis +16cha +1 aura =52


//

WF 12wiz/6pal/2mnk-shiradi5
18int +5tome +8itm +3ins +1exc +1profane +2yugo +2ship =45 +3enhs =42
18con +4tome +7itm +2ins +1exc +1profane +2ship +1enh +2stance =38
14cha +6levels +5tome +8itm +3ins +1exc +1profane +2yugo +2ship =42
12wis +4tome =16 (You gave no equip for wis in the first, so I did likewise.)


feats(7gen, 4wiz, 2mnk, 2epc):
max-wiz
quick-wiz
evo focus-wiz

tuff-mnk
[b]dodge[\b]-mnk

gr evo focus
mobility
mental tuff
ins reflex
imp mental tuff
shield mastery
imp shield mastery

tuff #2
ep tuff


hp: 20heroic +10argo +30gfl +20toughnessitem +45hpitem +50epic +60pal +16mnk +48wiz +50epictoughnessfeats +54toughnessfeats +350con +60toughnessenhs =813 *1.1 =894

dodge: 4item +3item +2item +6feats +3 magister +3/6shiradi =21/24% (I replaced the mobility item with a +2 dodge item to keep equipment slots even)

prr: 15sheltering +15largeshieldmasteries +20dos +15art +15shieldmasterytwist =80(36%)

refsave: 9base +2epic +7resitem +4supparry +2goodluck +4gh +16int +16cha +2aura +1 stance =63 +6unearthly=69
fortsave: 12base +2epic +7resitem +4supparry +2goodluck +4gh +14con +16cha +2 aura +1 stance =64
willsave: 13base +2epic +7resitem +4supparry +2goodluck +4gh +3wis +16cha +2 aura +1 stance =54

Like I said above, I'm not arguing for the HP/PRR being a good idea anymore. That being said, there's still a *significant* difference in saving throw potential. Whether or not that's overkill is debatable, but I'd have a tough time believing the 18 wiz/2 monk quite gets to "makes every save on a 2" in EE content. The combined mitigation of dodge/prr in the pally splash cases are also non-trivially higher than the 18 wiz/monk (but again, probably not enough to avoid kiting in EE).

[cforce]

Shifting the discussion to 18/2 splits vs. 16/2/2 splits, it seems like it comes down to this:

You may choose 2 of the following 3 things for your Shiradi Wizard:
- Evasion
- Save-on-a-2 saves in the game's hardest content
- Meteor Swarm

Fair?

[Darkrok]

I think I agree with the posts that mention sp-free damage as the next thing to add. Shiradi is begging for something with ranged damage added. As Half mentioned, you're not going to sit there tanking stuff on EE. Now, EH...when I get the 100PRR from audience with the queen I get happy in there. It means no kiting for that end fight. But EE, the 100PRR just takes the edge off. I still need to kite if I don't want to get stomped.

I think there's no question that you've shown that a 12-splash'd wizard has the platform to be successful as Shiradi. I don't find myself needing meteor storm very often. At 40sp's unmeta'd there's not very often I want to use it and when I do run into something with defense against missiles I don't find myself hurting for other ways to handle them. I just think that ignoring the other strong point of Shiradi - the missile damage - is overlooking a huge strong point that's begging to be built for.

To that end I'm wondering if you stack up all the Shiradi throwing bonuses - the 60% to attack rate, Pin, Otto's Whistler - if a pure thrower could be viable. Seems like 6 monk gives a lot to that build because of 10k stars but I'm not sure if the build is too MAD to get a high enough wisdom to make 10k worthwhile. But between Pin and Otto's Whistler you have some really good single-target CC, you'll have a very nice attack rate with thrown weapons to get some decent single-target damage, and you avoid having to build for Manyshot and bow-based damage which frees up dex and feats both.

I'm not sure this is workable but it was my first thought looking at what spells I use on my 18sorc/2pally Shiradi and having times where I actually do pull out the throwing daggers just to get some free damage (usually when soloing EGH Tor and working on the first statue to save sp's).

[Darkrok]

Shifting the discussion to 18/2 splits vs. 16/2/2 splits, it seems like it comes down to this:

You may choose 2 of the following 3 things for your Shiradi Wizard:
- Evasion
- Save-on-a-2 saves in the game's hardest content
- Meteor Swarm

Fair?

Honestly evasion doesn't get me *that* excited anymore. For traps it's definitely nice. Beyond the traps though? Half damage on a toon that can easily self heal is usually plenty. On my 18sorc/2pally I can only think of a handful of times that I've said, "man, I wish I had evasion". That said, I can only think of a handful of times I've said, "man, I'm so glad I have meteor swarm". So yeah, I could go either way with that.

What I do think is indispensable is the extremely high saves. Fortitude saves...disintegrate alone makes this critical. Will saves...it's bad enough when you get dance with irresistible and stunned with PWS. Now have all the dancing balls and symbols start getting you and that's just a pain in the rear. Reflex is obviously very important but a pure 20 wizard can get that...not part of the discussion.

[Darkrok]

I started up another thread to try and figure out a good way to fit in one or more ranged type of damage on to this platform for anyone that's interested. Didn't want to junk up the discussion here with a focus on that one issue.

[loren9109]

Shifting the discussion to 18/2 splits vs. 16/2/2 splits, it seems like it comes down to this:
You may choose 2 of the following 3 things for your Shiradi Wizard:
- Evasion
- Save-on-a-2 saves in the game's hardest content
- Meteor Swarm
Fair?

Yeah I guess that sums it. Same as Darkrok I would dump evasion if I can only take 2 or the 3, since having meteor swarm also means having some useful level 8 and 9 spells.

Actually I had thought about a wisdom based (int dumped, with moderate str, dex and con) shiradi 18wiz/2monk (or deeper melee splash to that end) with twf line. It will be much more gear, pastlife and twist intensive, but other than full advantage from shiradi line itself, it is not impossible to have: superior will save, 65ish stun dc, mediocre but steady melee damage from sense weakness, sneak attack, tenser transform and such.

Anyways I think the main reason there are very few splashes deeper than 18/2 is that +3 or higher hearts of wood don't grow on trees and investing too much solely on something that is likely to change in a month or two may be too expensive. One simple change such as making missiles counted as one proc may turn such builds into total gimp in no time.

But really my personal take is that ranged weapon core can do whatever shiradi core can do and more in tougher scenarios. To me the real FOTM build for EE is a self healing, high save, high dps ranged build that doesn't rely on sp for damage. Juggernaut and monkcher are good examples.

[Darkrok]

But really my personal take is that ranged weapon core can do whatever shiradi core can do and more in tougher scenarios. To me the real FOTM build for EE is a self healing, high save, high dps ranged build that doesn't rely on sp for damage. Juggernaut and monkcher are good examples.

Not necessarily tougher but more sustained. A ranged build isn't limited by sp pool. That's why I'm wondering how much ranged you could fit in to the 12 WF Evoker AM platform. Because cforce has definitely shown you can get most of the goodies from the wizard shiradi out of 12 levels. Could the other 8 create a viable ranged toon?

[loren9109]

Not necessarily tougher but more sustained. A ranged build isn't limited by sp pool. That's why I'm wondering how much ranged you could fit in to the 12 WF Evoker AM platform. Because cforce has definitely shown you can get most of the goodies from the wizard shiradi out of 12 levels. Could the other 8 create a viable ranged toon?

I don't know... the problem I think is one cannot spam spells and shoot arrows at the same time. If you end up shooting arrows why not shoot harder and get rid of spells totally?