18 paladin/2 fighter build

[HastyPudding]

Preliminaries:
This isn't my first character, I have a 4th life monk, a 4th life ranged-focus character (currently an artificer), and an 11th life caster-only character (currently leveling on 3rd cleric life). This will be a side project, but he'll have full access to a shared bank/plat bank, hand-me-downs from other characters, and access to plenty of non-btcoa items.

I've always had a fascination with sword-and-board classes in games. I figured I would love to see how it would play in


Specifics:
1- Character is not a 'true' tank, but will follow the defender of siberys PrE. The focus is on dps WITH a shield equipped, giving good PRR, acceptable AC (not top priority), self-sufficiency, and high doublestrike capabilities with shield masteries and shield bashing. In other words, a very survivable character, not meant for high-end dps, but able to hold his own and tank when needed. The Sentinel destiny will most likely be his main destiny once I get into epics.

2- I know the damage is lower compared to a THF or TWF paladin or other class, but this isn't about how uber my damage can be with my pretty khopeshes. I really have no interest in TWF or anything like that, in fact the only melee I really ever played was my monk (which I enjoyed) and a fledgling THF fighter that never got past level 10 (because I didn't like it).

3- Character will start clean on a 32 point first lifer human (half-elf not owned, and I want human for the extra feat and healing amp, and because half-elves are fugly). Access to veteran status 7 is available as well as full +2 tomes and a few +3's.


Stats:
I was thinking of a 16 strength/16 con/14 charisma to start, which leaves 6 points left over. Should I make charisma 16 and put 2 points into intelligence for skill points or wisdom for more SP and flexibility with wisdom items? Should I put those 6 points into strength, making 18? Or constitution?

Should all level up points go into strength? If I put 18 constitution to start, I can put 1 in constitution to gain access to epic toughness and put the other 4 in strength. I'm undecided if epic toughness is worth it.


Feats:
I haven't worked out the complete details, but I have a good idea of what I want.
lvl 1 - toughness
lvl 1 - (human bonus feat) bastard sword proficiency (necessary later on?)
lvl 3 - shield mastery
lvl 3 - (fighter level feat) power attack
lvl 4 - (fighter level feat) improved shield bashing
lvl 6 - -----not sure what to put here-----
lvl 9 - improved shield mastery OR improved critical: slashing----} interchangeable, not sure which to have first
lvl 12 - improved critical: slashing OR improved shield mastery---}
lvl 15 - -----not sure what to put here-----
lvl 18 - -----not sure what to put here-----
lvl 21 - -----not sure what to put here-----
lvl 24 - -----not sure what to put here-----

So, there's 5 open slots that I don't know what to do with. I thought of the THF line for making bastard swords strong with a shield. I also thought of cleave and great cleave, which would allow me to get overwhelming critical at 21 or 24. Extend and empower healing would be useful to make the most of my SP and self-healing.

Other than the above, there any useful tips for a first-time paladin?

[viktorserak]

Shield bashing is currently /and prolly for long/ broken and thus, in my opinion, not worth a feat.

THF is a great idea for bastard for some aditional dmg, as well as cleaves. Still not really a DPS toon, but will do some nice aditional dmg.

emp heal might get usefull, but as far as I recall my paladin life, I am not sure it works on LoH, which will be your main source of haling, especially on epic lvl.

If you decide to work on better selfhealing ability, you will need some healing item. Gauntlets of immortality, if you can slot heal amp 30% somewhere else then hands looks good, so does Halycon boots, Epic Mask of Comedy...
Dragon cloak would also help and its fairly easy to get, but you will prolly want bear cloak.
Technically, you can slot at least the implement bonus to anything with red, orange or purple slot.

[HastyPudding]

Shield bashing is currently /and prolly for long/ broken and thus, in my opinion, not worth a feat.

THF is a great idea for bastard for some aditional dmg, as well as cleaves. Still not really a DPS toon, but will do some nice aditional dmg.

emp heal might get usefull, but as far as I recall my paladin life, I am not sure it works on LoH, which will be your main source of haling, especially on epic lvl.

If you decide to work on better selfhealing ability, you will need some healing item. Gauntlets of immortality, if you can slot heal amp 30% somewhere else then hands looks good, so does Halycon boots, Epic Mask of Comedy...
Dragon cloak would also help and its fairly easy to get, but you will prolly want bear cloak.
Technically, you can slot at least the implement bonus to anything with red, orange or purple slot.

Shield bashing is pointless. The shield bashing feat, however, does indeed work as I've seen it work. It procs every few seconds as a sort of offhand attack.

The THF series was initially my first choice. I could get the 3 feats and then 2 left over for cleave and great cleave.

I know emp healing doesn't work on LoH, but I don't know too much about paladin spells so I'm not entirely sure if it'll be worth it on their cure spells. I've heard some paladins use extend because of their self buffs, though.

What's a good slot for greensteel for paladins?

[Hobgoblin]

Shield bashing is pointless. The shield bashing feat, however, does indeed work as I've seen it work. It procs every few seconds as a sort of offhand attack.

The THF series was initially my first choice. I could get the 3 feats and then 2 left over for cleave and great cleave.

I know emp healing doesn't work on LoH, but I don't know too much about paladin spells so I'm not entirely sure if it'll be worth it on their cure spells. I've heard some paladins use extend because of their self buffs, though.

What's a good slot for greensteel for paladins?

ok first off, loh is not boosted by any metamagics, or devotion items. the only thing that boosts it is more cha and more pally levels.

now ignore vick on him saying that loh is your main source of healing.

it can be, but only if you run in sentinal.

much better is this

cure serious wounds.

emp/emp heal/ maximize this

with quicken on, you are annoyingly hard to kill

the issue with this approch is that you need gear.

i have a toon that runs this way. i use madstone boots for the sp boost, and use a gs conc opp and a torc to self heal

it works out quite well, at least from the healing stand point.

my issue with my guy is that it takes forever to kill things! but hey im not dying


on your gs - i put mine into eyes.

bracers are another possibilty, but lots of competion there

hob
hope that helps!

[HastyPudding]

ok first off, loh is not boosted by any metamagics, or devotion items. the only thing that boosts it is more cha and more pally levels.

now ignore vick on him saying that loh is your main source of healing.

it can be, but only if you run in sentinal.

much better is this

cure serious wounds.

emp/emp heal/ maximize this

with quicken on, you are annoyingly hard to kill

the issue with this approch is that you need gear.

i have a toon that runs this way. i use madstone boots for the sp boost, and use a gs conc opp and a torc to self heal

it works out quite well, at least from the healing stand point.

my issue with my guy is that it takes forever to kill things! but hey im not dying


on your gs - i put mine into eyes.

bracers are another possibilty, but lots of competion there

hob
hope that helps!

Thanks!

So, emp/max/emp healing should go into 3 feat slots? Just for one spell? And maybe another for quicken? That's an expensive spell, I can see why you would need the torc and co-op greensteel. The thing is, I intend to run in sentinel as my main destiny once I get into epics, as that's where the shield benefits are. I can always twist in useful things like action boosts and such from LD and fury later on.

I figured the eyes would be the best spot for GS, there's only a handful of useful visors and goggles, and there's tons of useful gloves, rings, necklaces, belts, and cloaks; true-seeing can also be found on scrolls, in which a paladin has decent UMD to use, anyway.

I have no trouble with the low damage; I love support classes like healbot clerics, spellsingers, shintao monks, and enchantment wizards. I know I'll most likely be the last one standing in cases of a wipe (or near-wipe). It's a trade off, and a game that prizes survivability, you can't go wrong with tanks.

[Raoull]

Metas... I don't think anyone was recommending taking all of Empower, Maximize and Empower heal. However, often paladins take one (either Maximize for punch, or EmpH for efficiency).

If you do take Maximize or Quicken, rather than doing a 18/2 build, you might want to try going 18/1/1 with a Wizard level in there. You only lose out on the +1 str enhancement and 6hps, but you gain Magical training for not only a SP boost but Echos of Power to always give you enough SP to power some basic healing. (Cocoon is probably best, although it would work for unmeta's cures as well.) And for free, you get quasiUMD for high level wizard wands (mainly blur).

I guess you'll also lose a Base Attack Bonus, but with epic levels I don't think that mattered in the way it did when 20 was the cap.

[HastyPudding]

Metas... I don't think anyone was recommending taking all of Empower, Maximize and Empower heal. However, often paladins take one (either Maximize for punch, or EmpH for efficiency).

If you do take Maximize or Quicken, rather than doing a 18/2 build, you might want to try going 18/1/1 with a Wizard level in there. You only lose out on the +1 str enhancement and 6hps, but you gain Magical training for not only a SP boost but Echos of Power to always give you enough SP to power some basic healing. (Cocoon is probably best, although it would work for unmeta's cures as well.) And for free, you get quasiUMD for high level wizard wands (mainly blur).

I guess you'll also lose a Base Attack Bonus, but with epic levels I don't think that mattered in the way it did when 20 was the cap.

That's...actually not a bad idea. Wizard level 1 also has a bonus feat that can be used for a maximize or quicken meta. That would leave over 4 feats to use on other things. The very minor penalty to hp, bab, and str would be worth it for +80 sp and echoes, not to mention gaining access to useful lvl 1 wizard spells like nightshield, jump, or featherfall.

That's definitely something to consider.

[Kinerd]

I would go GTHF, Maximize, Quicken, Extend (dropping ISB). Extend over ISB is probably a tiny DPS loss, but for quality of life factor it's pretty big.

I also think you will be pleasantly surprised on your DPS output relative to THF, especially once you start loading up in Sentinel.

[Hobgoblin]

Thanks!

So, emp/max/emp healing should go into 3 feat slots? Just for one spell? And maybe another for quicken? That's an expensive spell, I can see why you would need the torc and co-op greensteel. The thing is, I intend to run in sentinel as my main destiny once I get into epics, as that's where the shield benefits are. I can always twist in useful things like action boosts and such from LD and fury later on.

I figured the eyes would be the best spot for GS, there's only a handful of useful visors and goggles, and there's tons of useful gloves, rings, necklaces, belts, and cloaks; true-seeing can also be found on scrolls, in which a paladin has decent UMD to use, anyway.

I have no trouble with the low damage; I love support classes like healbot clerics, spellsingers, shintao monks, and enchantment wizards. I know I'll most likely be the last one standing in cases of a wipe (or near-wipe). It's a trade off, and a game that prizes survivability, you can't go wrong with tanks.

ya sry i meant one of those.

i think i overdid it and took 2 of them.

with my amp - it costs me 35sp? might be wrong here - and heals me for about 280-300 hp.

havnt tried ee with this guy and have no real interest in it. (on that guy at least) but for eh - loads of fun

hob

[HastyPudding]

I would go GTHF, Maximize, Quicken, Extend (dropping ISB). Extend over ISB is probably a tiny DPS loss, but for quality of life factor it's pretty big.

I also think you will be pleasantly surprised on your DPS output relative to THF, especially once you start loading up in Sentinel.

And that's the thing of it. I'm not looking to be the top dps in the party. I'm looking to have fun. I told my guildies about my plans and the first question was 'why not go twf khopesh?' Going twf defeats the point of me making another character in the first place.

ya sry i meant one of those.

i think i overdid it and took 2 of them.

with my amp - it costs me 35sp? might be wrong here - and heals me for about 280-300 hp.

havnt tried ee with this guy and have no real interest in it. (on that guy at least) but for eh - loads of fun

hob

Yeah, I was thinking of taking empower healing along with quicken. Extend sounds useful, too, especially on buffs like divine favor or zeal. After looking at improved shield bash, I ended up not taking it.

The thing with spells is I'll only have 2 lvl 4 spell slots. Zeal is a given, but then there's cure serious and death ward. I'll have to lose one of those two later ones, seeing as the entire build is built around high doublestrike.

[unbongwah]

The three must-have feats on every pally tank IMHO are Toughness (or barb PL), Power Atk, and Imp Crit. After that you have to make some tough choices due to feat limits:

• DPS: THF or TWF x3, some or all of the Cleave/GC/OC chain (particularly if going LD)
• S&B: Shield Mastery & ISM (definitely take both or neither), maybe Imp Shield Bash
• Combat Expertise for extra AC & PRR from Imp CE (LD)
• some combo of Quik/Max/Emp Heal/Emp for better self-heals; Quik+EH also helps if you can Twist in Rejuvenation Cocoon

I took advantage of the free birthday tomes to create a new human pal 18 / monk 2 build. Initial stats were 16 / 11 / 14 / 11 / 8 / 16, IIRC; took a +2 INT tome. Final feat loadout will be: Toughness, Power Atk, Cleave, GC, IC:Slash, b.sword, SM+ISM, THF x3, and Combat Expertise. I wanted OC as well, but decided to go for CE instead; but we'll see if I change my mind between now and lvl 24.

[Kinerd]

You could drop one fighter level and effectively trade Extend for [Death Ward or CSW].