Framework for Fleshy "Juggernaut"

[Azaghan]

I was thinking of a good class combination that can best emulate the utility, survivability and DPS of a Juggernaut (a really excellent build concept), but in a fleshy version. I came up with the following:

Race: Half-Orc (Gives +6 PA damage, +4 THF melee damage, +2 STR, +2 STR enh, +3 boosts)

Classes:

1) Favored Soul 12 (Gives Heal Spell, Divine Favor +3 damage, Innate T4 Damage Boost, Key Buffs [DW, FoM], excellent base saves [+8 to all] )

2) Ranger 6 (Gives bow feats, ram's might for +2 STR & dmg, 2 favored enemies, sprint boost, more SP, excellent Fort & Reflex saves)

3) Rogue 2 (Gives Evasion, UMD, trap skills, 2d6+3 sneak attack damage, excellent Reflex save)

Epic Destiny: Fury for raiding, LD for solo/shortman

Feats would be: Toughness, PA, Cleave, Great Cleave, IC: Slash, Quicken, Empower Healing, OC, Epic Toughness (or Completionist if you have it)

This Build Should be able to combine:

Good melee DPS with THF
Good ranged/burst DPS with furyshot
Trap skills
Evasion with 50+ saves (apart from will)
Excellent Self-Healing with Heal and Rejuvenation Cocoon

I might post a more detailed writeup with gear later on if I find more time.

[Ancient]

I've been toying with the idea of a Pally 15, Ranger 4, Arti 1.

One of my characters is currently on a pally life and I've really enjoyed the arti splash. That toon uses fighter as the 3rd class to get tower shields, but ranger 3 also qualifies the build for either Hotd or Dos PRE and I think (not sure) that Arti can use masters touch to get tower shield prof.

There is another thread floating around the forum about end game pally. I think they went Pally 14/Ranger 4/Monk 2 with some very good arguments in favor of that build.

[Azaghan]

I've been toying with the idea of a Pally 15, Ranger 4, Arti 1.

One of my characters is currently on a pally life and I've really enjoyed the arti splash. That toon uses fighter as the 3rd class to get tower shields, but ranger 3 also qualifies the build for either Hotd or Dos PRE and I think (not sure) that Arti can use masters touch to get tower shield prof.

There is another thread floating around the forum about end game pally. I think they went Pally 14/Ranger 4/Monk 2 with some very good arguments in favor of that build.

I considered this kind of build and also some ranger-dominant ones (Ranger11/Arti7/Pal2 grants godly saves, full line of feats, traps, improved scrolling, devotion for cures / cocoon etc etc)

BUT

my main concern about this kind of builds is the lack of a big "save me" button like Heal/Reconstruct. Pally has LoH but charges are limited. I think that just scrolling + cocoon / cure spells is not reliable enough for EE. Maybe I am spoiled by playing a melee FvS for long now, but to be satisfied with respect to my self-healing I will either retain access to Heal spell or TR entirely to a WF jugg.

[voodoogroves]

I considered this kind of build and also some ranger-dominant ones (Ranger11/Arti7/Pal2 grants godly saves, full line of feats, traps, improved scrolling, devotion for cures / cocoon etc etc)

BUT

my main concern about this kind of builds is the lack of a big "save me" button like Heal/Reconstruct. Pally has LoH but charges are limited. I think that just scrolling + cocoon / cure spells is not reliable enough for EE. Maybe I am spoiled by playing a melee FvS for long now, but to be satisfied with respect to my self-healing I will either retain access to Heal spell or TR entirely to a WF jugg.

It's all about cramming in feats and capabilities. Arti bonus feats can turn into combat feats. Not many other combinations really give you the oomph you're looking for.

When you like up what it is you want to do, other class splits are going to seem lacking. Imagine a fleshie jug that instead of a body feat took Construct Essence. Will it work? Sure you'll have traps, burst damage, etc. but you're hurting on the heal.

The only real option are deeper splashes - and if having a pretty rocking "heal" that isn't limited by dragonmarks or lay on hands or active cleric PL feats is what you want you've got very few options.


Panic button "real" heal:
WF on artificer
WF on wizard
WF on sorc
Flehsie on FVS
Fleshie on Druid (late capability)
Fleshie on Cleric



Options that come to mind and are less limited for fleshies maybe things like
FVS/Cleric 12 / Ranger 6 / Monk 2
FVS/Cleric 12 / Monk 6 / Ranger 2 - could also go 10k stars

Cleric is likely stronger thanks to more spell slots. It also synergizes w/ Wisdom ... but down that path lies Stunning Fist and GMOF instead of Fury.



Theory-point ... what is a Jugg
- Does traps / some sort of core heroic skill
- Self buffs
- Self heals w/ a big heal
- Burst DPS w/ manyshot
- Melee DPS w/ Fury or LD
- is WF so cool and superior


If you step back and abstract a bit ... could you swap one of these away with some other capability and still have a solid build? Could you swap manyshot with DoTs (or multiple)? Could you take a bit away and add in some serious lockdown that works (an EE capable stunning fist, say)?

As you think about a fleshie titan, that's something you should consider. Look at (Sirgog's?) Radiant Titan - it's a cleaving Radiant Servant who could DP if needed and heals the fleshies around him. No Manyshot, no Traps but comes w/ a PUG-friendly aura and burst ability.

[Azaghan]

some nice analysis

The reasons you detail is why I have chosen the FvS 12 / Ranger 6 as the basic platform. It is the only way to have the big heals and all the required ranged feats to make the concept work.

I believe FvS is a better choice than cleric in this situation for the following reasons:

-Cleric Aura is not that useful in-battle in EE with only 12 levels. off-battle healing is managed by cocoon and things like healing spring/fast healing/gloves of immortality.
-FVS has much better base saves (monk-like, best progression)
-FvS grants a full tier 4 damage boost (8 boosts w/horc, in LD you can have 11 damage and 11 haste boosts, 8 of each in fury if you twist in Haste boost)
-FvS has access to toughness enhancements (AP are enough to take 3 even 4 ranks
-FvS has inherent energy resistance which is nice at current endgame

Now the only thing that remains is to finish the build with a 2 level splash. Options are:

-2 monk for evasion, +3 to all saves, 2 feats (probably best option)
-2 rogue for evasion, +3 reflex, traps, 2d6+3 SA, full UMD (maybe 2nd best but also really attractive due to my love for scrolling tenser's transformation all the time )
-2 paladin for super high saves, no evasion, heavy armor use (more PRR but not much) and some more SP (probably weakest choice)

and (not advised)

-2 fighter for 2 feats, no evasion, heavy armor, +1 STR, a weak haste boost (monk is an inherently better choice, just listing it in case someone absolutely needs the feats but does not have Monk class)

[Carpone]

I'd replace Rogue with Monk:

• For a build that has Heal, full UMD is overkill.

• The Artificer version gets traps as a bonus, it's not a core requirement. Every trap can be avoided/bypassed.

• IC: Ranged is missing, and that's a big deal. The other can be used for Stunning Blow or Point Blank Shot.

[Azaghan]

I'd replace Rogue with Monk:

• For a build that has Heal, full UMD is overkill.

• The Artificer version gets traps as a bonus, it's not a core requirement. Every trap can be avoided/bypassed.

• IC: Ranged is missing, and that's a big deal. The other can be used for Stunning Blow or Point Blank Shot.

Yep I was considering monk too. It is probably more powerful due to 2 feats and better saves. I know that traps isn't a core feature of the build.

On the other hand, I like to have full UMD mainly to keep tensered (scrolls) all the time and not worrying about wearing greensteel or getting dispelled of GH or getting debuffed. The extra sneak attack is not bad too. Regarding feats, I was thinking of taking IC: Ranged at 24 and pushing E-tough to the next feat slot at 27. I also HATE this garbage display of the ki bar if you also have SP.

[unbongwah]

While FvS probably seems like the obvious choice, what about druid instead? Advantages of druid: FotW boosts druid caster lvls; can add NW / Fatal Harrier for atk speed boost (or Reaving Roar for free AoEs); druids get Creeping Cold & Ice Storm, which are nice no-save cold DPS spells; if you are going with staves, you can use Shillelagh until you get Sireth (Stout Oak is a good alternate).

The main drawbacks to druid are: you need druid lvl 15 if you really want Heal; you get a lot less SPs and lower base saves than FvS; and your armor options are more limited (though if you want to be centered it doesn't matter). EDIT: also druid / pally is a no-go, so you won't get the monster saves; although feats are so tight w/out arty bonus feats anyway, it might be a moot point.

[voodoogroves]

While FvS probably seems like the obvious choice, what about druid instead? Advantages of druid: FotW boosts druid caster lvls; can add NW / Fatal Harrier for atk speed boost (or Reaving Roar for free AoEs); druids get Creeping Cold & Ice Storm, which are nice no-save cold DPS spells; if you are going with staves, you can use Shillelagh until you get Sireth (Stout Oak is a good alternate).

The main drawbacks to druid are: you need druid lvl 15 if you really want Heal; you get a lot less SPs and lower base saves than FvS; and your armor options are more limited (though if you want to be centered it doesn't matter). EDIT: also druid / pally is a no-go, so you won't get the monster saves; although feats are so tight w/out arty bonus feats anyway, it might be a moot point.

Monk 2 or 3 / Ranger 2 / Druid 15 could work

PA, Cleave, Great Cleave, Toughness, Quicken, Empower Heal, Point Blank, Manyshot, Maximize

That look about right?

[unbongwah]

Monk 2 or 3 / Ranger 2 / Druid 15 could work

PA, Cleave, Great Cleave, Toughness, Quicken, Empower Heal, Point Blank, Manyshot, Maximize

You forgot Improved Crit and OC. But yeah, I was thinking something along these lines too.

Just slapped this together to see if all the pieces fit:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.16.01
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 25 Lawful Neutral Half-Elf Female
(3 Monk \ 2 Ranger \ 15 Druid \ 5 Epic) 
Hit Points: 377
Spell Points: 1314 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 18
Reflex: 14
Will: 13

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 25)
Strength             18                    29
Dexterity            15                    17
Constitution         14                    16
Intelligence          8                    10
Wisdom               10                    12
Charisma              8                    10

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

Level 1 (Ranger)
Feat: (Half-Elf Dilettante) Half-Elf Dilettante: Rogue
Feat: (Selected) Point Blank Shot


Level 2 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Power Attack


Level 3 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Cleave
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness


Level 4 (Monk)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Harmonious Balance: Fists of Light


Level 5 (Druid)


Level 6 (Druid)
Feat: (Selected) Great Cleave
Feat: (Druid Wild Shape) Wild Shape: Wolf


Level 7 (Druid)


Level 8 (Druid)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 9 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Manyshot


Level 10 (Druid)
Feat: (Druid Wild Shape) Wild Shape: Bear


Level 11 (Druid)


Level 12 (Druid)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons


Level 13 (Druid)
Feat: (Druid Wild Shape) Wild Shape: Winter Wolf


Level 14 (Druid)


Level 15 (Druid)
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell


Level 16 (Druid)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Druid Wild Shape) Wild Shape: Dire Bear


Level 17 (Druid)


Level 18 (Druid)
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell
Feat: (Druid Wild Shape) Wild Shape: Water Elemental


Level 19 (Druid)


Level 20 (Druid)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Druid Beastial Nature I
Enhancement: Druid Beastial Nature II
Enhancement: Druid Fatal Harrier
Enhancement: Druid Nature's Warrior I
Enhancement: Druid Nature's Warrior II
Enhancement: Druid Shifting Rake I
Enhancement: Druid Shifting Rake II
Enhancement: Druid Vengeful Hunter I
Enhancement: Druid Vengeful Hunter II
Enhancement: Improved Rogue Dilettante I
Enhancement: Improved Rogue Dilettante II
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Human Versatility II
Enhancement: Human Versatility III
Enhancement: Human Versatility IV
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortoise I
Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Druid Waxing Hoarfrost I
Enhancement: Druid Waxing Hoarfrost II
Enhancement: Druid Eminence of Hoarfrost I
Enhancement: Druid Eminence of Hoarfrost II
Enhancement: Druid Eminence of Hoarfrost III
Enhancement: Druid Eminence of Hoarfrost IV
Enhancement: Druid Eminence of Life I
Enhancement: Druid Eminence of Life II
Enhancement: Druid Eminence of Life III
Enhancement: Druid Eminence of Life IV
Enhancement: Druid Strength I
Enhancement: Druid Strength II
Enhancement: Druid Toughness I
Enhancement: Druid Toughness II


Level 21 (Druid)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell


Level 22 (Druid)


Level 23 (Druid)


Level 24 (Druid)
Feat: (Selected) Overwhelming Critical


Level 25 (Druid)

Monk 3 adds +10% heal amp and light buffs (assuming she uses staves); rgr 2 for the feats (Bow STR & Rapid Shot); druid 15 for heals, buffs, cold spells, and Fatal Harrier. Went HE for Versatility, rog dilly, and heal amp; but HO would work fine too. EDIT: and naturally human would get you an extra feat like IC:Ranged or Stunning Blow. Might even be fun to level as wolf build before switching to staves full-time.

[Azaghan]

some nice druid ideas

The reasons I don't consider druid are:

-needs 15 levels to heal
-some feats will be missing
-much less SP
-much lower saves
-does not have a "full BaB" spell like divine power (must use clickies or rely on Tenser)
-will not use many of the granted class feature (forms, most spells)

The last point is probably the most important one, I don't feel like taking 15 levels of a class to just access Heal and some minor stuff, while FvS 12 will grant Heal PLUS some major stuff

Also, I don't feel like using Staves because I already have T3 Cleaver, T3 Skybreaker, eAGA, T2 Breach, GS 3XPos GA, Fury of the Flame (farming for Seal to turn epic). My arsenal is already set.

[Pilgrim1]

The reasons I don't consider druid are:

-needs 15 levels to heal
-some feats will be missing
-much less SP
-much lower saves
-does not have a "full BaB" spell like divine power (must use clickies or rely on Tenser)
-will not use many of the granted class feature (forms, most spells)

The last point is probably the most important one, I don't feel like taking 15 levels of a class to just access Heal and some minor stuff, while FvS 12 will grant Heal PLUS some major stuff

Also, I don't feel like using Staves because I already have T3 Cleaver, T3 Skybreaker, eAGA, T2 Breach, GS 3XPos GA, Fury of the Flame (farming for Seal to turn epic). My arsenal is already set.

so, im just gonna put this out there... as a EE druid i would prefer to use regenerate (lvl 13) instead of heal, it really is the better spell and its earlier. Also i realy don't understand why people don't consider wolf form as better then 2hf, you get an inate 30% attack speed boost. I would find a druid 9/9/2 build and adapt it to a 13 druid, 6 monk, 1 ranger or something like that.

[Tallyn]

Have you thought about Half Elf Juggernaut with construct essence? Just posting this as a thought exercise, I haven't looked to see if it is feasible due to needed feats for that build. With good repair spell power and crit you can still get some good reconstructs in... but not sure how good it would be.

[Azaghan]

Have you thought about Half Elf Juggernaut with construct essence? Just posting this as a thought exercise, I haven't looked to see if it is feasible due to needed feats for that build. With good repair spell power and crit you can still get some good reconstructs in... but not sure how good it would be.

I believe this would be a terrible idea. You practically gimp your repair healing AND your positive energy healing.

Could work in EH (maybe w/pally dilly for very nice saves but I think in EE your self-healing would be mostly subpar.

For the original Artificer version of Jugg I would only go WF.

[Tallyn]

I believe this would be a terrible idea. You practically gimp your repair healing AND your positive energy healing.

Could work in EH (maybe w/pally dilly for very nice saves but I think in EE your self-healing would be mostly subpar.

For the original Artificer version of Jugg I would only go WF.

I don't know, I have a Half Elf Artificer in my guild who can solo anything on EE pretty much. And with Half Elf Healing Amp, I still believe you come out even or positive. In addition, can get a better primary stat (although not Con).

Anyways, it's mostly just a thought exercise, and I mainly pointed it out since I have a VERY successful one in my guild. My own build is still Warforged, since it's the only one I have, wanted to see what it was like.

[Azaghan]

I don't know, I have a Half Elf Artificer in my guild who can solo anything on EE pretty much. And with Half Elf Healing Amp, I still believe you come out even or positive. In addition, can get a better primary stat (although not Con).

Anyways, it's mostly just a thought exercise, and I mainly pointed it out since I have a VERY successful one in my guild. My own build is still Warforged, since it's the only one I have, wanted to see what it was like.

I also have a Halfling Arti (pure) in my guild who is very successful with construct essence. But a pure arti's playstyle is ranged, pew-pew and kite with barriers etc. A juggernaut would go toe-to-toe in melee. If, for example, you watch Haek's solo of EE DA, you' ll see that the damage he takes could not have easily been healed with half-powered reconstructs. (it is literally half, 50%). That is just my opinion though.

[Truga]

Why would you want to play a Jugg as a lesser race is what I'm not getting.

[Azaghan]

Why would you want to play a Jugg as a lesser race is what I'm not getting.

I already have a Master Race Sorcerer :P

Also, this is not a "Jugg", he is a divine zealot of the Silver Flame using the Church's Favored Weapon (Longbow) to hunt down and destroy the Flame's enemies (could pick Undead and Evil Outsiders as FEs for flavor reasons)

I am trying to compile a big, melee (THF) DPS-oriented, self-sufficient toon with high saves and a solid ranged burst.

Surely Juggernaut is not the one and only way to go.

[Dragbon]

I have been running my cleric version of a juggernaut for awhile now. Its a 15 cleric 3 monk 2 ranger and this works really well. You can just fit in all the important feats in it and don't have to give up party healing. Who ever said the aura isn't useful in EEs is wrong it let's you keep attacking longer and saves your sp. I have already used this build to solo a couple EEs and duo others.

[Loriac]

The closest I can think of is the paladin base version. Its not just the base class abilities; its the fact that as you have a 'paladin' icon on the party bar, people won't expect you to party heal as they would if you were FvS or Cleric.

I.e. 14 or 15Pal/x/y

The most viable options seem to be:

Pal15/Ranger3/Monk2 - this variant can fit in almost all the feats you'd want, evasion, but no trap skills
Pal15/Ranger2/Monk3 - harder to fit feats in, more heal amp, evasion, no trap skills
Pal15/Ranger4/Rog1 - most feats can be fitted, trapskills possible if base Int is decent, no evasion
Pal15/Ranger4/Monk1 - good for getting all the feats you want, no trapskills/umd, no evasion
Pal14/Ranger4/Rog2 - most feats can be fitted, trapskills and umd, evasion, only 1 4th level spell which limits either dps or self-heals
Pal14/Ranger4/Monk2 - feats can be fitted, evasion, but no trapskills/umd, only 1 4th level spell

I've been looking at the Pal15/Ranger4/x versions, and the shadowdancer ED, to see if the combination looks viable. Evasion makes a huge difference imo, and its loss is non-trivial. Conversely, having access to precise shot and IPS is huge from a ranged perspective, and those two feats are difficult to fit in on the Pal15 versions that retain evasion.

Self healing on a paladin is via CSW or LoH. As such, its less sustainable than on a jugg, but conversely I'm finding I don't really use self-healing that much on my jugg. Typically I cast it in emergencies, which is exactly how LoH would be used too.