Need some help... Badly

[firemedium_jt]

Well I like the melee destinies but LD momentum swing and lay waste require cleaves, so getting more feats beats aura IMHO and u get Overwhelming Critical if u ever bring him to epic.

[Kinerd]

Didn't you just forget:



Yes, there is going to be friction between people who attempt to force there preconceptions on other people's builds, and people who have builds different (and quite possibly better) builds than those preconceptions.

You choose to say it is caused by the person who doesn't conform to somebody's sterotype, but I say it is caused by the person trying to project their narrowmindedness on others.

I feel yours is a blame-centric approach: someone is at fault, so someone should get berated, and then... well, and then we're right, drop group and high fives with the people who agree with us? I feel mine is a solution-centric approach: how best to ensure group harmony and therefore success? What is easier to control: how you play or how an amorphous, nebulous society tends to view your class? Surely the former, yes?

Let me ask you this. Have you ever recommended someone else make a Dex-based wizard, or do you stress Int-based? Does that count as "projecting your narrowmindedness" or just being correct? If it's simply a matter of correct or incorrect, what do these accusations of stereotyping get us?

I wasn't personal until you started telling me how I have "have an overly inflated opinion" of my divine.

To be fair, I said you "could have" etc., and immediately prior I agreed with you that I could suck at building a divine. If someone raising the possibility that you could be wrong (while simultaneously raising the same for themselves!) counts as personal to you, I'm afraid we will be unable to come to terms on this issue.

Oh, and feel free to continue to point out how characters who do only one thing can do it slightly better than multitalented characters who can do lots of things.

Yes, a Barb should out-DPS a melee divine, other things being equal. So what? That's irrelevant unless the divine is ONLY doing melee. A melee-ONLY divine is just as much of a waste as a healer-ONLY divine.

How do you rectify this description of my views with the fact that I explicitly advised the OP to take Spell Pen feats?

All I'm saying is that a person can only devote full attention to one thing at once. That you interpret that as "healer-ONLY divine" I feel goes back to my previous point: you are taking this too personally, and as a result consigning any criticism to that false dichotomy. This is unfortunate for all parties involved.

[SirValentine]

I feel mine is a solution-centric approach: how best to ensure group harmony and therefore success? What is easier to control: how you play or how an amorphous, nebulous society tends to view your class? Surely the former, yes?

OK, there seems to be no point in trying to convince you. You clearly hold a totally different outlook on life than I do, and one I find repugnant.

Oh, yes, it is certainly EASIER to just quietly sit down at the back of the bus. That doesn't make it a good solution.

[Kinerd]

I did not realize you felt that the way you played a game in the comfort of your home was comparable to the American civil rights movement where people were routinely harassed, beaten, and murdered. I do wish you had mentioned this in the beginning, it would have prevented a rather long series of confusions.

With that in mind, let me specify that for people who play a game as a game, I feel the best solution is to play it in the way that creates the most pleasure for the group, including the person.

[firemedium_jt]

Instead of the particulars of right and wrong can I moderate both of you and get two thumbs up on this??

Can we agree that as a group/raid healing Cleric as long as a Cleric takes 17 levels he/she can be an effective healer and the healer that the majority of the groups expect them to be? As a single divine in a 6 man group, or one of only two divines in a raid?

Come on. I think I can get two thumbs up on this from the majority of the players on the forums including Kinerd and SirValentine?

If anyone else wants to add your +1 or -1 on this feel free?

[EllisDee37]

To the OP, I just posted a necro cleric build (human 19/1 cleric/wizard) you might be interested to take a look at. Even just for ideas, if not the full build.

[firemedium_jt]

No votes yet? Com'on.

Lets see how the votes go over at the Melee forum.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=413781

[Niwareka]

Hey, Carpe, just in case you are still reading this thread (after the **** yawn *** usual pro and anti healbot stuff) do remember that arguing over how to play your character is not advice on how to build your character.

They are slightly linked because you do not want to build a toon that cannot perform the way you want to play, but as you are clearly setting out on a learning adventure, (and kudos for taking the time to do this) keep it general and keep your options open.

I was perhaps a bit flippant earlier, when I said it is difficult to build a poor healer/healer, so I offer the following more careful advice:

If you have at least:
a starting Wis of 16 (for enough SP)
a starting Cha of 12 (for enough turns)
17 levels of Cleric (for Mass Heal at level 9)
all the positive enhancements you can grab and
the best Dev item you can lay your hands on

then your toon will be capable of being played effectively as a pure group healer.

Whether you actually make an effective pure group healer is down to how you play, and there was some good advice back there in amongst the usual fixed opinions. But whether you actually have enough fun to keep playing the character depends on finding a style that suits you personally, which is where you must ignore everything we have told you, and find your own thing.

As you will have spotted, my base line is a fairly low one, leaving lots of scope for building in other capabilities. You should understand, however, that focusing on a "healing" build beyond the above will make negligible difference to how you are perceived. Being a healer is a thing that you can only get wrong (or not). Good players will thank you at the end when you succeed, but no-one will notice the size of the blue bar you did NOT need to use.

I have only built 3 divines ( one pure, one a 19/1 fighter, and one FVS evoker) All met the above criteria, all healed perfectly well when I was concentrating, and all failed when I wasn't. The build, I am afraid, is not not you have to worry about.

Brunhildha

[firemedium_jt]

I think I got SirVal and Kinerd to stop arguing.

CLR17 or FAV18 is all you really need and some gear for a party healer role. Oh and you need the minimum stats to cast level 9 spells which would be CLR with 19 Wisdom and FAV with 19 Chrisma. You can cast spells wearing gear that boosts it. It does not have to be base stats. That is all for healer role.

[Starla70]

Interesting to see how this thread goes. I would give a thumbs up, not that I totally agree with it all. I will also keep doing my clerics the way I like. It works for our group, it works for the shrouds I go on, and other raids, and I am often thanked with gifts from players I helped. Those things prove to me even if all of those posting here do not agree, others do. Which, I would think is why you have the choice to make the different chances.

As far as projection your attitude, is that not what each person posting here is trying to share? My clerics heal, turn undead, fight when needed and every one has burst, Divine Vitality and radiant servant, each one has a charisma over 14.

Having 2 epic clerics one pure one not, I have to say yes a pure makes a difference. I doubt I will make another splashed healer, I do however use splashes in other builds, where it doesn't make such a difference to my play. I think each of us should remember to respect each others opinions instead of jumping all over another person's idea, and resorting to name calling. Is that really necessary.

[EllisDee37]

Having 2 epic clerics one pure one not, I have to say yes a pure makes a difference. I doubt I will make another splashed healer, I do however use splashes in other builds, where it doesn't make such a difference to my play.

Interesting. My cleric's first life was pure, and I was underwhelmed by the capstone. After giving him a wizard life for a little extra oomph on dcs and spell pen I recently tr'ed him back to a 19/1 cleric/wizard build.

What is the benefit you see from pure? Is it the capstone?

[Starla70]

No it wasn't the capstone. I would have to look but I don't think I took it. I have played D&D since 1979. My experience up until the last 3 years was pen and paper. The guild I have belonged to since starting DDO has not changed and they have the team player mind set. Where each player fits into a nitch, or maybe 2. So the strength I see in staying pure is more sp, more spells with good power behind them, and that power is often needed in our quests. I understand not each guild is like that, not every player wants to fill one role. To that I say to each his own. However, since my splash toon can not come close to my pure in power, I won't do it again. I do like to play the splash, and am looking on how to TR her for a better over all build, it will not be the same. The pure toon just fits in better, has over all better success at the higher levels. The only real difference I see toward the splash is on epic destinies she will have better options and use of the changing after the 5th tier.

[Terrish]

Divine vitality is a complete waste of your turns.
I don't mean to sound like as ass here but... Your selling yourself short. Healbot clerics are trash. You absolutely need to be able to deal with killing stuff yourself. Being dependant on others completely is a joke build. Its even worse on a cleric than a barbarian, because you willingfully chose to build your toon to be worthless, at least a barbarian has restrictions preventing him from being more self sufficient.

Back to divine vitality. If you really think giving someone else 30 sp (basically a major pot if u use all your charges) is in any way possible more efficient than using them to heal burst, aura, and have perma + 6-8 damage(12-16 str)

If anyone asked me to give them DV while i waz on my cleric, i'd laugh my ass off, recall and drop group. Thats literally how bad DV is in comparision to the other uses for your turns.

Just to give you perspective on how good aura+bursts are for your turns, i didnt shrine on my cleric, who only has 15 lvls of cleric, until lvl 19, and that was only because it was a bad pug group i had to over care for in a quest well above thier heads.
So please, do yourself a favor and build for 2 out of (heals, melee dps, offensive casting, crowd control, or tanking) building for only 1
makes you a gimp.

I find it disappointing and sad that so many have the opinion that a pure healer or healbot is a waste. As pointed out before by others, you build what you want for your best overall play style. To comment that being a pure healer is lazy, or that you are just incompetent is truely sad. I poised a question and instead of comments that would be a logical counter to my point. I get personally attacked and told I am projecting on others. The question was posed that he would like to support a party or group and wished to learn the class of cleric. Others started posting about various types of builds that would yes, be more self-sufficient, but would take away from the overall build to support a party. To those that disagree with me, we will agree to disagree, however there is no need to be nasty. That being said, my background is pen and paper and my thought process is that a cleric is there to take care of the party. To fill your role within the party. That may be old-fashioned or outdated by some here, but it is simply the way I feel and is supported by the members in my guild. Who request my healers over having to use pug or lfm's healers. If you wish to learn the class itself, I would humbly recommend that you do a straight cleric and go from there. To invest in Spell penetration and Greater spell focus would take away from points that could be put into boosting your healing and other feats that would support the party. Such as Divine Vitality and Divine Cleansing that would save you on buying wands or using sp to cure status affects on your fellow party members. That is my opinion. Take it or leave it.

[Starla70]

I am asked all the time for DV's if I don't catch it as needed. There are some quests that I have had to shrine to get back all of my turns, since I have used them to benefit the party for all sorts of things. I use my turns, DV's, bursts, and radiant servant in almost all runs. With 21 of them, it takes quite a bit for me to get down that low. I find them all useful.

It agree to each his own. I find many ideas of builds here useless. I however did not feel the need to call them names, or call their game play as anything other then their right to their game play. I see no need to be like that.

[firemedium_jt]

I thought it would be a good idea to pass of information about divines to the melee players out there especially newbies on the forums, and there is actually some good info that has come out on Epic healing.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=413781

[Kinerd]

Instead of the particulars of right and wrong can I moderate both of you and get two thumbs up on this??

Can we agree that as a group/raid healing Cleric as long as a Cleric takes 17 levels he/she can be an effective healer and the healer that the majority of the groups expect them to be? As a single divine in a 6 man group, or one of only two divines in a raid?

Come on. I think I can get two thumbs up on this from the majority of the players on the forums including Kinerd and SirValentine?

If anyone else wants to add your +1 or -1 on this feel free?

There is no question that a player can make a 17 level cleric work as a raid healer. My point has always been that what the player does has consequences, both positive and negative.