Arcane Archer damage estimation

[Inouk]

Hmm, seems we're all using different methodologies in this calculation. I did a back of the envelope calculation in excel, with the following assumptions:

Pinion - 3.5w (i.e. including PBS), +8 and wailing, with 50 str assumed, seeker +14 (+10 from the bow, +4 exceptional), 500 on vorpals, and 72 shots / min normal single arrow fire rate, AA, 3xranger PL, 3xmonk PL, +4 artifact bonus, +5 dream visor bonus

Celestia - 2.5w, +8 and supreme good, with 60 str assumed, seeker +12 (+8 from nether grasps, +4 exceptional), power attack 5, 14 on crit from radiance, 50 on vorpals from suburst and fiery detonation (mobs assumed to make all saves vs. these effects as the DCs are very low for EE content), Tempest III (including 5% double strike), 3xMonk PL, +4 artifact bonus, +5 dream visor bonus

Balizarde - 2.5w, +8 and phelbotomizing, 60 str, seeker +12, power attack 5, Tempest III, 3xMonk PL, +4 artifact bonus, +5 dream visor bonus

Results:

Pinion - 39,900 over 120s (adjusted to 51,900 over 120s as noted below)
Balizarde x2 - 56,750 over 120s
Celestia x2 - 45,000 over 120s

These numbers don't include archers focus or IPS. Assuming that archers focus is a straight multiplier of +30% (I'm not sure if it only multiplies base damage, or total damage), we get 51,900 over 120s for Pinion when in archer's focus mode, which is obviously applicable to boss fights. We can treat damage vs trash mobs as being probably a further 10-20% higher assuming that 50% of shots fired hit 2+ mobs. In the case of IPS, +30% damage adjustment is the correct lower bound, as if you feel you're hitting 2+mobs less than 30% of the time, you should simply switch to precise shot mode.

These numbers align better with my expectations than the numbers in the OP. On mobs with DR, I think the correct comparison is Pinion vs. Celestia, i.e. ranged is better than melee vs. bosses, and better vs trash (due to IPS). As has been stated by other posters in this thread, pinion should be assumed to break dr due to the ease of using metallic ammo.

On mobs without dr, balizarde looks much better than pinion on bosses on raw numbers, but factoring in archer's focus brings ranged back to within 10% of melee; meanwhile, IPS probably makes them the two styles a wash vs trash provided the AA can line up 2+ mobs 50% of the time.

In truth, str is probably being overstated here for a pure ranger tempest III, but conversely ram's might does add +2 on top, so the 60 str is really 56 str + ram's might. Similarly, I suspect that str is understated for a str based AA but about right for a wis based one (again, its really 46 str + ram's might to get to +20 mod from str).

Epic destinies are harder to calculate, but assuming FotW, my qualitative assessment is as follows: under normal trash fighting use, melee damage gets more of a boost as i. overwhelming force will render mobs helpless and vulnerable to more damage; and ii. adrenaline will regen faster for melee due to greater number of swings.

When in unbridled fury mode however, pinion damage will be much higher than that from balizarde. Assuming a fully stacked archer's focus at that point, and 25% damage boost on top, my suspicion is that on bosses melee will at best come out equal to ranged, but in all likelihood ranged will have more damage.


Edit: a further point re: dr - if a melee twf weapon doesn't break dr, the impact on overall dps is much greater than for ranged, due to the much higher rates of attack; the ratio is roughly 2 melee swings: 1 arrow fired, meaning that any given dr if not broken has twice as much impact on melee.

Roughly speaking, you'd subtract 275xDR from the 120s total damage for ranged, and 500xDR from the total for melee. In other words, if you encounter dr of 20+ per hit, you should switch from balizarde to celestia based on these numbers. At a DR of 20 which celestia breaks but pinion doesn't, the two weapons will be equal assuming archer's focus.

In other words, DR strongly favors ranged (because pinion + the right ammo will break almost all DR in the game anyway).

Similarly, fortification strongly favors ranged due to precision being a no cost stance (I think you can still be in archer's focus mode with precision up) whereas melee loses 5 damage per hit from switching off power attack.

Per the wiki:
"Offensive Ranged Stance: While stationary, you gain Archer's Focus: Up to once every 2 seconds, you gain +2% competence bonus to missile damage. This effect can stack up to 15 times (for a total of +30% damage). Moving or using the Manyshot ability clears the stack. "

Since an archer rarely stands perfectly still, and manyshot (I assume 10k doesn't cause this) both clears the stack and is therefor mutually exclusive to it, the 30% # is greatly overstated. I would guess 15% is a stretch given that you have to regularly rebuild the stack and a large % of your shots come from manyshot. And again... you may get extra attacks via IPS on trash, but I guarantee melee will get that many or more extra attacks via cleave chain (and at +2/3/5 weapon damage).

Bottom line I think melee will do a bit more damage, but archery is close enough to at least be viable. Archery will have better burst with many shot + epic moment and has the advantages of switching targets instantly, hitting from range, and not being in melee. Neither is really superior IMO so... good job Turbine! Well... put an asterisk beside that, I still think it's **** that the best archers are monks.

[Loriac]

Per the wiki:
"Offensive Ranged Stance: While stationary, you gain Archer's Focus: Up to once every 2 seconds, you gain +2% competence bonus to missile damage. This effect can stack up to 15 times (for a total of +30% damage). Moving or using the Manyshot ability clears the stack. "

Since an archer rarely stands perfectly still, and manyshot (I assume 10k doesn't cause this) both clears the stack and is therefor mutually exclusive to it, the 30% # is greatly overstated. I would guess 15% is a stretch given that you have to regularly rebuild the stack and a large % of your shots come from manyshot. And again... you may get extra attacks via IPS on trash, but I guarantee melee will get that many or more extra attacks via cleave chain (and at +2/3/5 weapon damage).

Bottom line I think melee will do a bit more damage, but archery is close enough to at least be viable. Archery will have better burst with many shot + epic moment and has the advantages of switching targets instantly, hitting from range, and not being in melee. Neither is really superior IMO so... good job Turbine! Well... put an asterisk beside that, I still think it's **** that the best archers are monks.

Good point re: manyshot.

We can calculate the damage loss during manyshot exactly. Manyshot in the analysis provides 1/3 of the damage over the 120s. 10k provides 1/2, and single-shot firing 1/6 (over 120s, 20s of manyshot gives '80s' equivalent of single shots, 60s of 10k gives '120s' equivalent based on 2 arrows per shot, and 40s of normal firing gives '40s' of normal firing).

On this basis, you get 30% boost to 2/3 of the damage (not counting 'wind up time), so 20% boost to such damage. I think 15% is actually a good lower bound for damage addition once you factor in spool up time, so lets say that 40k pinion becomes 46k in archer's focus mode.

This puts pinion level with celestia, and about 10k short of balizarde.

I'm really not a fan of comparing cleave/great cleave (particularly on twf) with IPS. First, cleave hurts twf dps a lot as you don't proc the offhand. Second, its much harder to go around cleaving through EE mobs than it is to use IPS (multiple mobs in striking distance of your toon are a recipe for becoming a soulstone very quickly in EE). Third, cleaves and great cleaves are on a 6s cooldown whereas IPS is every single shot. Therefore I don't accept as valid the contention that cleave and great cleave equalise the playing field with IPS on EE; they may on EH and lower difficulties, but thats irrelevant imo.

FWIW, if 72 animations is correct (and not the 100 that I used) then Pinion drops below Celestia in my comparison. Meaning that Tempest Ranger is better DPS than AA given the narrow conditions I employed.

My analysis shows that if 72 animations is correct, then pinion and celestia are about equal vs. single target, and have similar dr breaking abilities. Vs. multiple targets (i.e. trash) pinion will be ahead due to IPS. Again, because the point should be emphasised, ranged dps is 'correctly' calculated in these analyses because you don't have to run up to mobs, can switch targets instantly etc whereas melee dps represents a 'best case' number.

Balizarde will be ahead of pinion until you encounter significant dr (say 25-30 per hit). Its also much harder to break dr on balizarde than on pinion, so there will be quite a few encounters where you have to lose the extra damage that balizarde provides.

[emptysands]

Per the wiki:
"Offensive Ranged Stance: While stationary, you gain Archer's Focus: Up to once every 2 seconds, you gain +2% competence bonus to missile damage. This effect can stack up to 15 times (for a total of +30% damage). Moving or using the Manyshot ability clears the stack. "

No longer works like this - even for manyshot. The buff stays up if you are damaging something.

[Pilgrim1]

Most 12 monk archers will have something like 6d6 SA +13 or ~33 SA dmg. If you assume 275 hits is the diffrence between fighting modes then the SA damage is ~ 10k Difference in damage.

Out of curiosity 500 hits from a pure rogue is~
20d6+25 or 95 per hit. This means that a pure rogue does ~47,500 damage from SA alone over a 2 min period. Are melee really landing 250 hits a min? What about monks?

[emptysands]

Most 12 monk archers will have something like 6d6 SA +13 or ~33 SA dmg. If you assume 275 hits is the diffrence between fighting modes then the SA damage is ~ 10k Difference in damage.

Out of curiosity 500 hits from a pure rogue is~
20d6+25 or 95 per hit. This means that a pure rogue does ~47,500 damage from SA alone over a 2 min period. Are melee really landing 250 hits a min? What about monks?

A 992 Drunk build with full Fatal Harrier stack and haste boost can get up too 245 hits per minute in Wolf/Wind Stance. A 12Monk /7 Druid /1 Rogue in Fatal Harrier/Wind Stance with GTWF will get up to 317 hits (include off hands and doublestrikes) per mintue. 19 Rogue/1 Monk will get 289 hits per mintue with Wind/GTWF/Haste Boost 45%.

I think the max is probably 12 Ranger/7 Druid/1 Monk in Fatal Harrier/Wind Stance giving about 341 hits per minute.

I did all this analysis [1] a while ago. Not really on topic for this thread, but you can check the link.


[1] https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...FE&usp=sharing

[WruntJunior]

Per the wiki:
"Offensive Ranged Stance: While stationary, you gain Archer's Focus: Up to once every 2 seconds, you gain +2% competence bonus to missile damage. This effect can stack up to 15 times (for a total of +30% damage). Moving or using the Manyshot ability clears the stack. "

Since an archer rarely stands perfectly still, and manyshot (I assume 10k doesn't cause this) both clears the stack and is therefor mutually exclusive to it, the 30% # is greatly overstated. I would guess 15% is a stretch given that you have to regularly rebuild the stack and a large % of your shots come from manyshot. And again... you may get extra attacks via IPS on trash, but I guarantee melee will get that many or more extra attacks via cleave chain (and at +2/3/5 weapon damage).

Bottom line I think melee will do a bit more damage, but archery is close enough to at least be viable. Archery will have better burst with many shot + epic moment and has the advantages of switching targets instantly, hitting from range, and not being in melee. Neither is really superior IMO so... good job Turbine! Well... put an asterisk beside that, I still think it's **** that the best archers are monks.

What the wiki says about Archer's Focus has little to do with how it really works.

It works as follows: activating manyshot (or 10k stars in my experience) puts it on cooldown. It has no affect on the stack.

Moving may stop the stack from building, but I have not seen this (but I'm rarely using Archer's Focus while moving, so can't really say - typically using it for boss fights).

There is no action I can think of short of going through a loading screen that will clear a stack instantly...and my monkcher is right there with my sorc for most played character.

[scoobmx]

Here's a 'more realistic' max burst DPS for Pinion using Unbridled Fury, for people who are interested in what destinies bring to the table. The list of effects is long and what's cut off in the list is: dream visor, planar conflux, black dragon set (stacking with conflux), shintao set, fury of the wild innate, and divine favor (+1 luck), and the damage boost is human versatility 30%, archer's focus 30%, and black dragon robe 5%. Strength bonus is again 20. Still more can be added, such as alchemical ritual and bard songs. A whole manyshot using unbridled fury amounts to something like 80000+ damage.

[emptysands]

The list of effects is long and what's cut off in the list is: dream visor, planar conflux, black dragon set (stacking with conflux), shintao set, fury of the wild innate, and divine favor (+1 luck), and the damage boost is human versatility 30%, archer's focus 30%, and black dragon robe 5%.

The 5% is only for melee, for ranged the black set is +2 "ranged" artifact damage. At the moment this stacks with the prowess +4 "general" artifact bonus.

[WruntJunior]

The 5% is only for melee, for ranged the black set is +2 "ranged" artifact damage. At the moment this stacks with the prowess +4 "general" artifact bonus.

You're talking about the set bonus, he's talking about Relentless Fury.

[emptysands]

You're talking about the set bonus, he's talking about Relentless Fury.

You are right. Although from that point of view, it's not going to last (buff on killing blow) against a red-name.

[ruskeycom]

Whats about tempest II has manyshot too? From my expierence if you have manyshot you want to use it on CD no matter what. So sequence will be like 20 sec manyshot --> 100 sec TWF

[Therigar]

Whats about tempest II has manyshot too? From my expierence if you have manyshot you want to use it on CD no matter what. So sequence will be like 20 sec manyshot --> 100 sec TWF

While several others have added their take on this, in my estimations it appears that Tempest Rangers lose damage by using manyshot.

I should also add that, if the accurate rate of animations is 72 per minute as has been suggested in this thread, that Tempest Ranger GTWF with 100% off-hand attacks seems to be more damage than manyshot plus 10K pure shooting.

If I revise my approach to consider only 72 animations per minute the 144 animations produce 288 arrows (attack rolls) which create 274 hits (216 normal, 44 critical, 14 vorpal event). Note: vorpal event is a critical that also triggers on-20 damage.

At that rate of fire, Pinion causes 31941 damage in 2 minutes. Dual Celestia causes 36224 and dual Balizarde causes 41745.

In my estimations manyshot plus 10K with GTWF at 80% off-hand still provides the most damage at the 72 animations per minute.

Much is made over destiny choices and the addition of other gear and factors. Each new effort to show the value of the AA PrE seems to add more gear and more caveats.

IMO that is a strong argument AGAINST AA rather than for AA.

If such extensive gear and conditions are needed in order to meet or exceed the damage done by melee then it argues in favor of the easier to aquire, easier to gear and easier to maintain melee style.

It also explains why AA is only appearing to be the better combat style when fully geared and running in the most advantageous destiny.

Because this condition is not typical -- perhaps not even practical for the majority of players -- it serves to devalue AA and to reinforce my original perception that AA is a poorer choice of combat styles.

I will reiterate my statement from the original post: I was wrong. A fully outfitted and equipped Arcane Archer will produce more damage over 120s than a Ranger with the Tempest PrE that melees the opponent. Note the underlined caveat that is part of my first post on this subject.

The more that people add to the list of gear and situations required to make AA a better combat choice the more it demonstrates that AA is really only best for the very few who have all of the gear and are able to function under the most ideal circumstances.

That is a point worth noting.

[keveniaftw]

While several others have added their take on this, in my estimations it appears that Tempest Rangers lose damage by using manyshot.

I should also add that, if the accurate rate of animations is 72 per minute as has been suggested in this thread, that Tempest Ranger GTWF with 100% off-hand attacks seems to be more damage than manyshot plus 10K pure shooting.

If I revise my approach to consider only 72 animations per minute the 144 animations produce 288 arrows (attack rolls) which create 274 hits (216 normal, 44 critical, 14 vorpal event). Note: vorpal event is a critical that also triggers on-20 damage.

At that rate of fire, Pinion causes 31941 damage in 2 minutes. Dual Celestia causes 36224 and dual Balizarde causes 41745.

In my estimations manyshot plus 10K with GTWF at 80% off-hand still provides the most damage at the 72 animations per minute.

Much is made over destiny choices and the addition of other gear and factors. Each new effort to show the value of the AA PrE seems to add more gear and more caveats.

IMO that is a strong argument AGAINST AA rather than for AA.

If such extensive gear and conditions are needed in order to meet or exceed the damage done by melee then it argues in favor of the easier to aquire, easier to gear and easier to maintain melee style.

It also explains why AA is only appearing to be the better combat style when fully geared and running in the most advantageous destiny.

Because this condition is not typical -- perhaps not even practical for the majority of players -- it serves to devalue AA and to reinforce my original perception that AA is a poorer choice of combat styles.

I will reiterate my statement from the original post: I was wrong. A fully outfitted and equipped Arcane Archer will produce more damage over 120s than a Ranger with the Tempest PrE that melees the opponent. Note the underlined caveat that is part of my first post on this subject.

The more that people add to the list of gear and situations required to make AA a better combat choice the more it demonstrates that AA is really only best for the very few who have all of the gear and are able to function under the most ideal circumstances.

That is a point worth noting.

Adren works on 4 arrows, but only one melee blow
That settles it at once: manyshot wins

[Therigar]

Adren works on 4 arrows, but only one melee blow
That settles it at once: manyshot wins

This assumes that you have adrenaline. That will be a false assumption for most players.

Which means that the caveat concerning fully outfitted and equipped also extends to destiny choices. When those things are not all selected so as to be optimal for the ranged calculations archery falls behind pure melee.

Again, this illustrates my point better than I ever could -- if, when, whatever the conditions placed on it, then archery comes to the forefront. For most players that is improbable.

AA is a good choice for players willing to accept that the PrE is generally weaker until all of the necessary parts are in place. Only when the gear, stats, build choices, epic destinies and twists are all in place does it outpace the Tempest Ranger's GTWF.

[Dorian]

Adren works on 4 arrows, but only one melee blow
That settles it at once: manyshot wins

I think his point was that a Tempest 2 that melees most of the time with Fury ED active.... then uses Manyshot + Adrenaline is going to do more damage.

Not sure how you calculate stuff like extra untyped damage to melee attacks from Sense Weakness and Tunnel Vision... and the fact that you will recharge Adrenaline with Fury Eternal while in melee. (lots of recharges with fast TWF and 100% offhand procs from Tempest)

[Therigar]

I think his point was that a Tempest 2 that melees most of the time with Fury ED active.... then uses Manyshot + Adrenaline is going to do more damage.

Not sure how you calculate stuff like extra untyped damage to melee attacks from Sense Weakness and Tunnel Vision... and the fact that you will recharge Adrenaline with Fury Eternal while in melee. (lots of recharges with fast TWF and 100% offhand procs from Tempest)

But, this is my point exactly -- that you can set the parameters any way you want to achieve the result you are looking for.

Not every person is going to think this is the best destiny and best twists to have. That can occur for a large number of reasons.

I, for example, really like Shadowdancer because I like having a full 25% dodge on low AC, low PRR characters. I solo a lot of the time and when I group I'm still more worried about my survivability than about hitting theoretical maximum DPS.

Other players will naturally assume that Shiradi is best -- particularly those enamored of Pin and Rainbow (and Double Rainbow).

So, every time someone argues that "well, with this set of ED and twists active" it only reinforces my point -- that A fully outfitted and equipped Arcane Archer will produce more damage over 120s than a Ranger with the Tempest PrE that melees the opponent.

It is the fully outfitted part -- having all the right things in ED, feats, twists, etc. That doesn't really apply to every archer out there.

Acting like it does is misleading.

Now, that doesn't argue for whether every archer should build a certain way. It simply recognizes that every archer doesn't.

And, if you do not then you are probably hurting your damage by using manyshot if you are a Tempest Ranger and not improving it.

[keveniaftw]

But, this is my point exactly -- that you can set the parameters any way you want to achieve the result you are looking for.

Not every person is going to think this is the best destiny and best twists to have. That can occur for a large number of reasons.

I, for example, really like Shadowdancer because I like having a full 25% dodge on low AC, low PRR characters. I solo a lot of the time and when I group I'm still more worried about my survivability than about hitting theoretical maximum DPS.

Other players will naturally assume that Shiradi is best -- particularly those enamored of Pin and Rainbow (and Double Rainbow).

So, every time someone argues that "well, with this set of ED and twists active" it only reinforces my point -- that A fully outfitted and equipped Arcane Archer will produce more damage over 120s than a Ranger with the Tempest PrE that melees the opponent.

It is the fully outfitted part -- having all the right things in ED, feats, twists, etc. That doesn't really apply to every archer out there.

Acting like it does is misleading.

Now, that doesn't argue for whether every archer should build a certain way. It simply recognizes that every archer doesn't.

And, if you do not then you are probably hurting your damage by using manyshot if you are a Tempest Ranger and not improving it.

Let's take a look at this again: Fury is by FAR, by very very far the best destiny for any AA, the DPS burst is so huge that no other destiny get's near to it. I can also suggest the tempest wears korthos gear and 2 masterwork daggers and thus his DPS falls behind. That isn't the point, we cn safely assume that if the AA has pinion he'll go fury (except when soloing dreadnought maybe)

So then, good unbridled manyshot is with pinion etc at least over 40k damage in 20 seconds, making at the very least (not twinked and geared like you said) 2k damage per second

No your tempest can't make up for this DPS burst, unless maybe if he does exactly the same but he'd still fall behind, alot.

In fact, a good tempest is by FAR more gear dependant than a Arcane Archer. Not only for DPS, also for other stuff. As you do not take every gear for granted we can safely suppose that a newbie might wnats some survivability (ranged ppl get hit less, unless you get twink defense items). But for DPS, taking newb weapons, the fury AA will still do in 1 unbridled manyshot 30k + for a 1.5k damage per second. while a worse weapon greatly reduces DPS: Take the comparision vs 2 of the best weps: Balizarde/Celestia is already in 120 secs 6k for like 50 damage per second.

You assume the AA does never swap to melee. Keep in mind that a RANGED AA only falls behind a tempest in 20% offhand procs and 5 (or was it 10?) % doublestrike.

You have, exactly like in the previous thread, proven that you have no idea what you're talking about. If you refuse to manyshot on your tempest because you believe that would reduce your DPS, then that is a poor decision. The best thing right now you can do is admit you were wrong and stop this entire discussion. There is a reason the only person to have ever solo'd all raids is a AA and not a tempest.

[keveniaftw]

I, for example, really like Shadowdancer because I like having a full 25% dodge on low AC, low PRR characters. I solo a lot of the time and when I group I'm still more worried about my survivability than about hitting theoretical maximum DPS.

And, if you do not then you are probably hurting your damage by using manyshot if you are a Tempest Ranger and not improving it.

I rlly wanted to still comment these 2 points, because they ar plain, plain stupid.

1) If you solo, rangeds can kite everything and thus can focus more on DPS than defenses
2) The fact that you even mention AC is worth taking makes it look like all you really solo is epic normal, because at epic hard it doesn't rlly help alot, and it does NOT help at epic elite
3) Shadowdancer gives 25% incorporeality, this is not dodge and does stack with dodge. This only proofs that you don't even know defense mechanics properly
4) If you can build a toon, that at lvl 20 lowers his DPS using manyshot, then you'll get a cookie, because I think such a toon still needs to be invented (assuming he's at least using a 'ok bow', which, if you gonna argue that is twink item: Any 20+ bow/sinew/silver (lvl 8 named bow) will do rlly

[emptysands]

Not sure how you calculate stuff like extra untyped damage to melee attacks from Sense Weakness and Tunnel Vision... and the fact that you will recharge Adrenaline with Fury Eternal while in melee. (lots of recharges with fast TWF and 100% offhand procs from Tempest)

Sense Weakness estimate: 1d8 * .75 + 1d12 * .5 + 1d20 * .25 = 3.375 + 3.25 + 2.625 = 9.25.

Recharges fast with manyshot+10k/IPS as well. Usually before the unbridled timer is up.

[Dorian]

Sense Weakness estimate: 1d8 * .75 + 1d12 * .5 + 1d20 * .25 = 3.375 + 3.25 + 2.625 = 9.25.

Recharges fast with manyshot+10k/IPS as well. Usually before the unbridled timer is up.

Thanks.

I thought the recharge was melee only.

So Unbridled Fury works with Ranged (vorpal recharge). What about Fury Eternal? DDOwiki description and ingame text is wrong I guess?

I'm only on tier 3 of Fury ... can't test yet.